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Audio: CIA Blinks! (Jim Fetzer Show)
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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another job well done and well expressed Fintan!

I notice Mr. Fetzer is open to Fintan's views -- selectively open. The bigger the issue gets, the more the 'agree to disagree' comfort zone is achieved. Curiousity about Fintan's methods for list inclusion, understandable; as is Fintan's reluctance to discuss details, except those for personae not directly connected with the 'present' 9/11 sphere, with the (obvious) exception of SJ.

But there is one theme that keeps repeating itself, even when Fintan doesn't invite it -- a theme that has nothing whatsoever to do with exotic 'scalar' weaponry. For Jim is absolutely correct: it is unreasonable to rule out hypotheses before 'all' the facts are in. Which leaves us with observations about events, things, people and currents. And every idea under the sun, except one.

Theory goes...

'Scholars' was formed not for the purposes of promotion -- but the purpose of demotion. To demote the specific idea that conventional explosives could have levelled the Towers, and that purpose only. Everything else is taken up already in other venues, covered elsewhere.

Being soley fixed on demotion of this single precept, it has 'free rein' in all other areas. This means Fintan is very welcome, only one subject is 'taboo'... or guaranteed for a fight it's clear from the transcript. An eerily similar sentiment can be found in Steve Jones' lectures. Demotion.

Ms. Wood takes everyone into orbit.

Mr. Fetzer provides a comfortable landing spot, a place in which those enamored with Wood's ideas, yet need a comfortable place to talk shop and broader issues, so long as one is prepared to abide by the demotive aspect, and is comfortable (and has the patience and time) to center on methods that do not fit Occam's Razor. Or Thermite. Or Thermate. He is the left flank.

Steve Jones is the one who is to gather all the breathren who worship the Razor just enough that they need to seek an explanation somehow rooted on planet Earth -- but are nevertheless misled (ah, but slightly) by Prof. Jones' (gentle) insistence that therm[i,a]te 'fits like a glove' and RDX (or various whatevers) could not, did not. It is a gentle hand of demotion which they will tolerate, until the Big Surprise. He is the right flank.

I see a pattern of movement here. Left flank and right flank form their own influences and confluences, but there is but one confluence -- two movements -- intersecting and united only around an idea that, save for some hasty assumption about physics, it is somehow true that 9/11 was special. In that all the basic and proven methods for attacking buildings with diagnoal shaped cutting charges -- somehow -- were not used for, could not have possibly been used to bring down these buildings.

Mr. Fetzer will sell them a miracle.

One that on the Last Day will (still) be assumed to exist, and the proof is just around the corner. But attempts to deliver the goods will run up against the usual Illuminati walls -- the ones used to conceal things that were never there. Actually no one is really worried about deployment secrets of scalar weaponry from leaking out. And none will ever escape. And no wonder. It's perfect.

I once knew someone who worked (vaguely with but they were damned sure it existed) the 'Original Star Wars' Project. The greatest human achievment that never was. I'm no stranger to Scalar technology... and its true purpose in today's world.

Meanwhile, Prof. Jones will lead the down-to-Earth flock along the path of Science that exists to-day! And with every telling about thermite and thermate, fielding more and more questions as time goes on about straight cutting charges. First the equations that brush against fluid dynamics with countless variables hidden inside (safe academic territory) but always and ever deny conventional (common) explosives.

His ludicrous assertion that 'ID tags' must somehow be present in the by-product of conventional explosives -- a bit of deceit dropped so casually in an interview -- shall never be forgotten, and can never be explained fully in a kind and polite way. For that matter, can the reluctance to consider conventional means.

Once his flock and the media they serve are quite sure that only thermite could have done it, something's going to happen.

Mr. Fetzer and Mr. Jones cannot seem to grant due process to the idea that this thing could have been done simply and reliably with off the shelf methods, even if they were applied in (slightly but surgically precise) unprecedented amouints.

It's a classic 'pincher' move. It's all about, and all comes down to conventional demolition avoidance, somehow.

So that must be how it was done. Thought so.

It's a shame because Mr. Fetzer is an extremely interesting and intelligent person, and though we fall on opposite sides of this fence I hold no grudges. And no, with this type of schism there's no philosophical tidepool we could tarry in. Not now, because 9/11 pisses me off. No, being pissed off doesn't feel 'good'... but it's real. And urgent.

___
"And to St. Peter, I must say, I learned my lesson well..."
While there's hope for reason. For justice. Something to come home to. Stay this madness.
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Fintan
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 7495

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The CIA Fakes Just Blinked!

How the relentless pressure finally paid off.

For a year and a half the CIA Fakes have frozen out the
revealing 9/11 analysis found in the BreakForNews Forum.
Now, in the face of mounting support and a growing dawning
of the truth --they've finally blinked!


Including:


- The Trap that Backfired
- The Alex Jones Connection
- The CIA Fakes Advance Man
- Space Beams and Monty Phyton
- Fake is as Fake Does

DSL Mp3 Audio
http://www.breakfornews.com/audio/NextLevel070322a.mp3

Dialup Mp3 Audio
http://www.breakfornews.com/audio/NextLevel070322.mp3

Quote:
REFERENCES


T J MATTINGLY

Fintan, Fetzer, and the Forest of Fakes

Good show! Especially given the circumstances. Jim Fetzer is steeped in the establishment of the so-called 9/11 Truth Movement. Fetzer has difficulty in seeing the alternative evidence & implications of what Fintan & others have researched, developed & proven over the years.....

Fetzer & others still see disinfo in terms of intent. If you didnít intend to lie, then youíre telling the truth, right? Or at least youíre not disinfo, right? Of course, untruth & disinfo are not matters of intent. We have witting, semi-witting, unwitting & witless 9/11 disinfo purveyors. As one who has been more-than-occasionally duped into repeating the disinfo of the dogs with ticks with whom I lie, I know that being a disinfo agent is NOT a matter of intent.

In addition, the road to you-know-where is paved with you-know-what. Thus Fetzerís & othersí good intentions are not always sufficient to remove them from the letter & litter of disinfo. But -- one nice thing about Fetzer (butt not Jones) is that the old dog really does want to learn new tricks. Fetzer is more than willing to open his raincoat to those with opposing views (e.g., Fintan).

Watching & sometimes literally stage-managing so-called ďCIA FakesĒ from a front row seat here in Washington & New York is interesting. I know many if not most of these characters first hand. Thus, it has also been interesting to watch my own views evolve over the past 6 years as I see, experience & listen to Fintanís & othersí views & alternative evidence about what is really going on behind the scenes (where I sometimes think that I live).
http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=17211#17211

Ashcroft may face prison over 9/11 cover-up,
says Daniel Ellsberg

http://www.breakfornews.com/Sibel-Edmonds1.htm

by Fintan Dunne, Editor BreakForNews.com, 15th June, 2004

Sibel Edmonds & Dan Ellsberg

Two whistleblowers stood side by side before a courthouse in Washington, D.C. on Monday. Veteran of the Pentagon Papers scandal, Daniel Ellsberg was backing a protest by former FBI translator Sibel Edmonds, against a court gag order which has silenced her revelations about the September 11th, 2001 attacks.

The whistleblower pair were protesting yet another delay by Judge Reggie Walton of the District Court of Columbia in determining whether Edmonds' closed session testimony to Congressional inquiries can be declared state secrets by U.S. Attorney General, John Ashcroft.

In a statement, Edmonds called Ashcroft's legal moves anti-freedom of speech and anti-due process.

Ellsberg's common cause with Edmonds is founded on his own battle to make public a top secret study of US decision-making in Vietnam, known as the Pentagon Papers.

In an exclusive interview with BreakForNews.com he said that Ashcroft's legal actions against Edmonds were: "clearly intended to keep her from bringing out in public information that could lead.... to criminal indictments and possible convictions of major political figures."

ELLSBERG ON 9/11 14th June 8pmET
Daniel Ellsberg with Fintan Dunne
Listen:mp3
http://www.breakfornews.com/ellsberg040617.mp3
Streaming Audio Win Media 12 mins

7th June 9amET
Sibel Edmonds with Fintan Dunne
Listen: mp3 Win Media 30 mins
http://www.breakfornews.com/Sibel-Edmonds040607.mp3

http://www.breakfornews.com/Sibel-Edmonds1.htm

JUDY WOOD's SPACE BEAMS

http://breakfornews.com/3i/images/WTC/wtc_coreclose.gif

Everything about this building tapers, in effect.

For example, I have read that the steel in WTC1 where the first plane
struck, is about half the thickness of the steel in WTC2 where the
second plane struck.

A difference of half in steel column mass over only 20 floors or so!

Here's my effort at showing the Towers as represented by their real mass:



http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4016#4016



Last edited by Fintan on Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TJ



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 15
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:29 am    Post subject: In a Lemon Orchard, I Make Lemonade... Reply with quote

In a Lemon Orchard, I Make Lemonade...


Again: Good show! Especially given the circumstances... and the subject matter (i.e., me, in significant part).

Yes, Fintan, I introduced you to Sibel Edmonds. I also introduced Jim Fetzer to your info & suggested that he invite you as a guest. Did I see the irony & counterintuitiveness of both introductions? Yes! In part, that's why I made the introductions!

Fintan, as you may recall, it was I who first stated to you that Sibel Edmonds was wittingly or unwittingly supporting the Official Government Conspiracy Theory ("OGCT"). Since you were still in the midst of your "CIA Fakes" investigation, you dismissed my assertions. When I first met Sibel at dinner at the National Press Club, this was my FIRST question to her (posed in a public forum -- the audio of which still exists). Is Sibel wittingly supporting the evolving OGCT? To me, it doesn't matter whether it's "witting" or not. But she is supporting it...

As for Jim Fetzer, my questions about Jim are similar to yours & to those of some of your BFN Forum members. However, my conclusions about Jim are nowhere near as firm as yours appear to be. About GCN, I have no doubt. You are quite correct.

When you've written & said as much as Fetzer on JFK & other matters, you too might think that you're pretty smart. But 9/11 is an order of magnitude or more above the JFK assassination, etc., in complexity. You know this -- even if Fetzer does not. Initially, I also did not know this.

You later told others & me that you did & said what you did regarding Edmonds, Hopsicker, etc. because you were in the midst of your "CIA Fakes" investigation. After you concluded your investigation, you have apparently concluded that I too am amongst the fakes -- because I was able to personally get to know some of those to whom YOU first introduced me on your site. Laughing (Actually: ROTFLMAO...)

After your "CIA Fakes" expose', what were my choices? I live & work in a lemon orchard (Washington, DC). I have access to many good lemons.

As you know (but most readers & listeners do not), you & I have semi-casually known each other since 2003 (when you worked with Alex Merklinger). In pre-"CIA-Fakes" 2005, we stopped communications (in part due to my continued gullibility to those whom you later called the "CIA Fakes" (i.e., some of your regular guests) and due to a mistake that I probably made about Hurricane Katrina -- after which you kicked me off your previous Forum, without explanation). Regardless, I still had the benefit of your analyses; however, you didn't have the benefit of mine. Wink

Fintan, you're one of the brightest & most incisive analysts on the scene -- on many scenes. However, your hats are still too small for your head... Smile

Yes, I re-registered for your BFN Forum a couple of days before your show with Fetzer. And I told you why in a Private Message & semi-obliquely in a public BFN Forum post -- i.e., I introduced Jim Fetzer to your info (beginning in August 2006) & I only recently suggested that he invite you as a guest on his show (to which he readily agreed). Fetzer & I often disagree. This was NOT one of those times.

Last Wednesday (when you had phone problems with GCN & Fetzer), the local phone company also semi-inexplicably cut off MY phone service. Jim tried unsuccessfully to call me to resolve problems during an early break (I'm in the international telecom business). As you accurately state, GCN was the problem. And Jim could have resolved this by initiating a 3-way call to you from his home (as I later told him -- and you, in a P.M.).

What happened was a BETTER result (NOT a "trap that backfired"). We all witnessed the witting or unwitting GCN screw-ups. At my readily-accepted suggestion, Fetzer then postponed a scheduled guest to invite you for a full 2-hour show on the following day. The rest is history. Again: Good show!

If you're interested in continuing to "out" me, then let me continue to do it first (in my usual semi-narcissistic but self-deprecating manner). As you know, I met Daniel Ellsberg a couple of weeks before he released the Pentagon Papers in 1970. I met Ellsberg & his son at an anti-Vietnam-War symposium in St. Louis; recognized the newness of his assertions; and offered to drive him & his son to the airprort (during which drive, Ellsberg broadly outlined what he planned to do). There is a longer but more semi-interesting story -- if anyone is interested...

In 2004, Ellsberg LIED to Sibel about me. Ellsberg told Sibel that he & I had never met (because he supposedly wasn't in St. Louis when we met -- Ellsbeg did NOT say: "I don't recall"). Surprisingly, I couldn't prove Ellsberg to be mistaken on the internet. But my proof IS in the St. Louis newspaper archives.

Although I knew & talked about the support that Sibel provided for the OGCT, Sibel still invited me to her big Press Conference events -- in part because I could bring former Senator Mike Gravel (now running for U.S. President -- and another guest that I got for Fintan). Although Gravel "mooted" the U.S. Supreme Court continuing injunction against publishing the Pentagon Papers by reading them aloud in the US Senate, and Gravel & Ellsberg knew each other fairly well in 1970, I still needed to re-introduce Gravel & Ellsberg at one of Sibel's press conferences. They did not recognize each other in 2004.

Other than eliminating competition, why did Dan Ellsberg want to stop me from advising Sibel about how her story was supporting the OGCT, etc.? Ellsberg knew (from Sibel) that I was Jim Marrs' Literary Agent on two of Jim's four 9/11 books (which contain mistakes, yes, I know). But Ellsberg "and Company" (maybe or probably) then ALSO knew that I would also know about Colonel Fletcher Prouty's statements about Ellsberg from Jim Marrs (i.e., that Ellsberg was wittingly or unwittingly acting as a tool of the CIA et al in implicating the U.S. military (only) as the prime culprit in the Vietnam War -- they were not; see Fintan's posts about this, citing Prouty as a prime source).

I realized most of the above on the day that I took the pictures of Ellsberg & Sibel at a rally in front of the U.S. Courthouse in Washington. And I later told Fintan. Did I still hold out hopes that Ellsberg & Sibel could be useful re 9/11? Yes, I did. Was I wrong? I know... But YOU should be the judge.

As previously indicated only in part, I have been involved in 9/11-related issues for 40+ years. I live to do this work. This is no idle hobby for me. Did Fintan insult me by "outing" me as an "Advance Man" for some of the "CIA Fakes" that he encourged me in part to know? Hell, NO! As you may know, some people don't like Fintan. Razz I can probably use what Fintan said about me to OUR benefit (as I have in the past). Independent work is probably our best work. However, FYI, Fintan's early, dated, audio interview with me on "The pEEk Oil Strategy & Energy Abundance" is in his audio archives for 10-Sep-04. And we also did a couple of other things together. You be the judge...

IMHO, GCN & Alex Jones leave too much to be desired, as does Steve Jones & his thermite-centric 9/11 hypothesis (to say the least) . Although possibly mistaken, I still have hopes for Jim Fetzer & Scholars for 9/11 Truth. Fetzer is independent of GCN; and he certainly does not get paid by them (or anyone else, that I kinow of) for what he is doing.

Dr. Judy Wood may be mistaken in part about what Fintan & Steve Jones call "Space Beams" (in semi-subtle, semi-usual ridicule). However, IMHO, neither the Reverend Steve Jones nor ANYONE else can account for as much of the causitive WTC pulverization data, "toasted cars," etc., as does the semi-speculative but semi-definitive 100-page (printed) article about 9/11 Directed-Energy Weapons ("DEW") at www.DrJudyWood.com. Is Wood's work the best work with which to lead the 9/11 charge? No. But, so what?

Truth is sometimes stanger than fiction. In addition, in an insane world, only the crazy people CAN be sane (however, this is no guarantee of one's sanity -- believe me, I know). These statements certainly do NOT mean that Wood is completely correct. And Fintan's ridicule of Wood certainly does NOT mean that Fintan is scientifically correct. But -- Wood needs to answer some of the questions that Fintan & others have asked. And Fintan may want to take his ridicule a little bit less seriously. Shocked

For the moment, I remain your semi-reluctant Mister Magoo, Walter Mitty, Austin Powers, and Forrest Gump -- all loosely wrapped into one. I don't know what else to do. But I am open to your suggestions...

In the lemon orchard that is Washington, I make lemonade -- as sweet or as sour as you like it. You be the judge...

P.S. Fintan -- Thanks for spilling my name correctly! Mad Wink

_________________
"Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think." -- Niels Bohr


Last edited by TJ on Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:40 pm; edited 4 times in total
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navari
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: In a Lemon Orchard, I Make Lemonade... Reply with quote

TJ wrote:
In a Lemon Orchard, I Make Lemonade...

TJ, why do you live and work in a Lemon Orchard when all of the fruit
produced is rotten?


TJ wrote:
After your "CIA Fakes" expose', what were my choices? I live & work in a lemon orchard (Washington, DC). I have access to all of the good lemons.

Exactly, what were your choices? and why did you choose to stay with
rotten lemons?


TJ wrote:
Fintan, you're one of the brightest & most incisive analysts on the scene -- on many scenes. However, your hats are still too small for your head... Smile

Huh? Sounds like more of that six-dimensional chess you lemons in
DC play.


TJ wrote:
Did I still hold out hopes that Ellsberg & Sibel could be useful re 9/11? Yes, I did. Was I wrong? I know... But YOU should be the judge.

Ellsberg & Sibel are small fry, and not too bright either, so why would a
big lemon like you hold out hope that they'd have any real knowledge
on 9/11?


TJ wrote:
As previously indicated only in part, I have been involved in 9/11-related issues for 40+ years. I live to do this work. This is no idle hobby for me. Did Fintan insult me by "outing" me as an "Advance Man" for some of the "CIA Fakes" that he encourged me to know? Hell, NO!

Yes, I imagine being outted by Fintan could be used to help you significantly
in the Lemon Orchard.


TJ wrote:
As you may know, some people don't like Fintan. Razz I can probably use what Fintan said about me to OUR benefit (as I have in the past).

Whose benefit is "OUR benefit"? Who exactly do you include
in "OUR"?


TJ wrote:
For the moment, I will remain your reluctant Mister Magoo, Walter Mitty, Austin Powers, and Forrest Gump -- all loosely wrapped into one. I don't know what else to do. But I am open to your suggestions...

You don't sound to me like anyone who would do anything
"reluctantly". So, the real question is, why are you doing it?




    Run, Forest Run

    Mr. Magoo, your optician needs to be fired

    Blair wins my Walter Mitty award. Bush wins the Military's "Walt" award.

    Austin, are those lemons in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me, baby
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TJ



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 15
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: In a Lemon Orchard, I Make Lemonade... Reply with quote

Navari, :roll: Exclamation Question Idea Arrow

navari wrote:
TJ wrote:
In a Lemon Orchard, I Make Lemonade...

TJ, why do you live and work in a Lemon Orchard when all of the fruit
produced is rotten?


TJ: Navari, all lemons aren't necessarily "rotten." They're just lemons. And lemons (roten & otherwise) are not all that exists in & around Washington. Of course, I could have asked Fintan the same type of question. I didn't. Immediately, I knew in part why Fintan knowingly got close to the "CIA Fakes" for 3+ years. Unfortunately, the "CIA Fakes" are still a significant part of the 9/11 forest.


TJ wrote:
After your "CIA Fakes" expose', what were my choices? I live & work in a lemon orchard (Washington, DC). I have access to all of the good lemons.

Exactly, what were your choices? and why did you choose to stay with
rotten lemons?


TJ: Navari, what little you have seen & heard of me is not all that I do & am.


TJ wrote:
Fintan, you're one of the brightest & most incisive analysts on the scene -- on many scenes. However, your hats are still too small for your head... Smile

Huh? Sounds like more of that six-dimensional chess you lemons in
DC play.


TJ: Navari, multi-dimensional chess, yes, probably. But I do not consider Fintan, others in this Forum, or you to be the opponents. In addition, for the most part, it's not a win-lose game.

TJ wrote:
Did I still hold out hopes that Ellsberg & Sibel could be useful re 9/11? Yes, I did. Was I wrong? I know... But YOU should be the judge.

Ellsberg & Sibel are small fry, and not too bright either, so why would a
big lemon like you hold out hope that they'd have any real knowledge
on 9/11?


TJ: Navari... Ellsberg, Sibel & others still have more 9/11 audience market share than Fintan, Fetzer & others. Sometimes fruitlessly (to continue my unfortunate metaphor), I plant the seeds of appropriate ideas that you see here & in few other places in the semi-fertile grounds of these larger audiences to whom I sometimes have access. Sometimes they grow; sometimes they whither.


TJ wrote:
As previously indicated only in part, I have been involved in 9/11-related issues for 40+ years. I live to do this work. This is no idle hobby for me. Did Fintan insult me by "outing" me as an "Advance Man" for some of the "CIA Fakes" that he encourged me to know? Hell, NO!

Yes, I imagine being outted by Fintan could be used to help you significantly
in the Lemon Orchard.


TJ: Navari, what you say may help -- but not in the way that you imply. For example, Fintan's "Destruction of the USA" 9/11 message resonates in the minds of many whom you might not expect. Fetzer's & others' anti-Bush, anti-Neo-Con message resonates with some; however, for many, it's just "politics as usual."


TJ wrote:
As you may know, some people don't like Fintan. Razz I can probably use what Fintan said about me to OUR benefit (as I have in the past).

Whose benefit is "OUR benefit"? Who exactly do you include
in "OUR"?


TJ: Navari, by "OUR," I mean all of us. It is possible to "tack" into the wind. But is not possible to sail without the wind. Whatever doesn't truly hurt us, makes makes us stronger.


TJ wrote:
For the moment, I will remain your reluctant Mister Magoo, Walter Mitty, Austin Powers, and Forrest Gump -- all loosely wrapped into one. I don't know what else to do. But I am open to your suggestions...

You don't sound to me like anyone who would do anything
"reluctantly". So, the real question is, why are you doing it?


TJ: Navari, in a minimal edit of my Forum post, I changed "reluctant" to "semi-reluctant" (amongst a couple of other minor changes) I enjoy doing what I do. Fintan's additional "profile" for me may not hurt as much as you might expect. But it does hurt. I am used to getting strong criticism from "the opposition" -- but not from those with whose goals I generally align. As for your last question, I do what I do because it is the right thing to do. And it's fun. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't.


    Run, Forest Run

    Mr. Magoo, your optician needs to be fired

    Blair wins my Walter Mitty award. Bush wins the Military's "Walt" award.

    Austin, are those lemons in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me, baby


TJ: Navari, yes, I am glad to see you. But those aren't lemons (or a banana) in my pocket. And for you, it's also not mini-Me. Razz

_________________
"Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think." -- Niels Bohr
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navari
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: In a Lemon Orchard, I Make Lemonade... Reply with quote

TJ wrote:
Navari, :roll: Exclamation Question Idea Arrow

Very nice way to start off the response, TJ.
Hey, which way is up Confused


TJ wrote:
TJ wrote:
After your "CIA Fakes" expose', what were my choices? I live & work in a lemon orchard (Washington, DC). I have access to all of the good lemons.

Exactly, what were your choices? and why did you choose to stay with
rotten lemons?


TJ: Navari, what little you have seen & heard of me is not all that I do or am.

Go ahead, TJ. Explain. We're all waiting and listening

TJ wrote:
TJ wrote:
Fintan, you're one of the brightest & most incisive analysts on the scene -- on many scenes. However, your hats are still too small for your head... Smile

Huh? Sounds like more of that six-dimensional chess you lemons in
DC play.


TJ: Navari, multi-dimensional chess, yes, probably. But I do not consider Fintan, others in this Forum, or you to be the opponents. In addition, for the most part, it's not a win-lose game.

Do you see everyone as your opponent, TJ.

TJ wrote:
TJ wrote:
Did I still hold out hopes that Ellsberg & Sibel could be useful re 9/11? Yes, I did. Was I wrong? I know... But YOU should be the judge.

Ellsberg & Sibel are small fry, and not too bright either, so why would a
big lemon like you hold out hope that they'd have any real knowledge
on 9/11?


TJ: Navari... Ellsberg, Sibel & others still have more 9/11 audience market share than Fintan, Fetzer & others. Sometimes fruitlessly (to continue my unfortunate metaphor), I plant the seeds of appropriate ideas that you see here & in few other places in the semi-fertile grounds of these larger audiences to whom I sometimes have access. Sometimes they grow; sometimes they whither.

Market share can be way overrated, especially if one must compromise
to get it - which seems to run rampant in LemonLand. Besides, I don't know about
anyone else here, but I sure don't want to be associated with left wingnut shills
like Edmonds and Ellsberg. Anyway, the audience they reach is so freaking co-opted
by the array of left wingnut actors, foundations, blogs, and non-profits, that this
"marget segment" may not be reachable in the foreseeable future anyway.


TJ wrote:
TJ wrote:
As previously indicated only in part, I have been involved in 9/11-related issues for 40+ years. I live to do this work. This is no idle hobby for me. Did Fintan insult me by "outing" me as an "Advance Man" for some of the "CIA Fakes" that he encourged me to know? Hell, NO!

Yes, I imagine being outted by Fintan could be used to help you significantly
in the Lemon Orchard.


TJ: Navari, what you say may help -- but not in the way that you imply. For example, Fintan's "Destruction of the USA" 9/11 message resonates in the minds of many whom you might not expect. Fetzer's & others' anti-Bush, anti-Neo-Con message resonates with some; however, for many, it's just "politics as usual."

It all about understanding market segmentation, isn't it? Startup 101.

TJ wrote:
TJ wrote:
As you may know, some people don't like Fintan. Razz I can probably use what Fintan said about me to OUR benefit (as I have in the past).

Whose benefit is "OUR benefit"? Who exactly do you include
in "OUR"?


TJ: Navari, by "OUR," I mean all of us. It is possible to "tack" into the wind. But is not possible to sail without the wind. Whatever doesn't truly hurt us, makes makes us stronger.

Dude, there are others here that can make wind. By the way, how well do lemons sail?

TJ wrote:
TJ wrote:
For the moment, I will remain your reluctant Mister Magoo, Walter Mitty, Austin Powers, and Forrest Gump -- all loosely wrapped into one. I don't know what else to do. But I am open to your suggestions...

You don't sound to me like anyone who would do anything
"reluctantly". So, the real question is, why are you doing it?


TJ: Navari, in a minimal edit of my Forum post, I changed "reluctant" to "semi-reluctant" (amongst a couple of other minor changes) I enjoy doing what I do. Fintan's additional "profile" for me may not hurt as much as you might expect. But it does hurt. I am used to getting strong criticism from "the opposition" -- but not from those with whose goals I generally align. As for your last question, I do what I do because it is the right thing to do. And it's fun. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't.

I do not see how you can "align" with the goals here, as the means are the ends in the making.

TJ wrote:
TJ: Navari, yes, I am glad to see you. But those aren't lemons (or a banana) in my pocket. And for you, it's also not mini-Me. Razz

But everyone knows that Mini-me was the BIG brain of the
operation.
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jose



Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject: I'm sure I'll get fire from hell for this... Reply with quote

But hey, what the heck, you only live once!

Fintan!

Speaking of CIA fakes and how they are making fools of themselves to purposely discredit anyone who doesn't buy the official story about a mad Arab in a cave, here is an observation about your last show:

After ranting for 40 minutes about clowns who believe in space beams and holograms, just two minutes before the show ends, you reiterate about the lunacy that goes in the 9/11 truth movement.

Then you proceed, out of nowhere, to talk about "The Mayan Calendar" by by Carl Johan Calleman and Jose Arguelles...

Great! So the leading debunker of the lunatics of 9/11, closes his expose recommending a book coauthored by a guy who believes in galactic beams, Mayan etheric engineering, Arcturian space stations, Atlantian family histories and claims to be Valum Votan, the reincarnation of the Maya ruler Pacal Votun!




What the hell?!?!? Michael Hayden will gladly send your check this month.

Well done man! I think we deserve an explanation dude...

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hawkwind



Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 718

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: In a Lemon Orchard, I Make Lemonade... Reply with quote

TJ wrote:

As previously indicated only in part, I have been involved in 9/11-related issues for 40+ years.


I think I expressed an opinion about your observations about 2 years ago ...

hawkwind wrote:

Dearest Sir and Madam,

With humble incongruity, I must object to your persistent, pusillanimous and ostensive correlations to awkward abstentious accusations. To follow Terrence Johannes's preposterous precepts of Jungian philosophical recourse, one might find themselves to be at antiphony or in error, i.e. a gaseous ether stalker, so to speak. As the aforementioned Anselm of Canterbury has professed, "fo' shizzle my nizzle", yes fellow specters of deception and thespians of pious disinterest, I, as well speak jive. Surprised

Hawk Razz


http://breakfornews.proboards44.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1125568052&page=1#1125614694

Some things never change, as much as you wish them to.

- Hawk (Vers. 2.0)

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micpsi



Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunne cannot distinguish between fallible people who just happened to get their facts or predictions wrong on a particular occasion (Wayne Madsen), people who have a public persona of being on a public crusade (Alex Jones) and those who sincerely believe they have to consider more exotic, scientific explanations for the events of 9/11 (Judy Wood). Instead, such people in the 9/11 movement that Dunne disagrees with are all rolled together indiscriminately and without proof under his vacuous rubric of 'CIA fake,' as if pinning labels on people one merely disagrees with is sufficient to cancel their credibility! How puerile can one get?

Dunne's defence in Fetzer's program for using the term was totally inadequate. He had the opportunity of providing sound EVIDENCE for his typecasting of so many people widely respected in alternative news media. Instead, he blew it by demonstrating that it amounts merely to HIS subjective feelings whether he calls people 'CIA fakes' - a vacuous opinion unsupported by ANY objective, incontrovertible evidence. It turns him into the Rush Limbaugh of the 9/11 truth movement - one full of prejudiced attitudes who likes to pick out his own Aunt Sallies to knock down in order to make himself feel superior. Being opinionated without being able to justify oneself with sound evidence or argument does not cut it. It is the reason why so many of Dunne's peers in the 9/11 truth movement have only disdain for his arrogant elitism ("The next level") and don't take seriously his almost libellous name-calling. He was lucky the polite Fetzer let him off so lightly. He really did not deserve it.
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TJ



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 15
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: In a Lemon Orchard, I Make Lemonade... Reply with quote

Hi again, Navari:

You responded to my statement that "what little you have seen & heard of me is not all that I do or am" by saying: "Go ahead, TJ. Explain. We're all waiting and listening."

If you Google my name (i.e., >Thomas-J-Mattingly<), then you'll find out a little more about me. In addition, if you Google >Thomas-J-Mattingly Saddam-Hussein<, then you'll find that I at least minimally participated in Fintan & Kathy's story about "The Sham Saddam Scam." I coined the name, and I circulated the story as widely as possible. This is a story about which Fintan said that NONE of the "CIA Fakes" would repeat & circulate. I did.

In addition, I also helped to precipitate Fintan's story about "Polio Joins the War on Terror" (in part about the contaminated polio vaccines being foisted upon Third World peoples -- especially Muslims -- by the World Health Organization, etc.). This is also the story about the fake nature of much if not all of the polio virus and its disproportionate impact on (or use against) Muslim populations.

Some Muslim friends from Nigeria asked me to look into this. I called Fintan, who had already done most of the research that we needed. The real 'polio' culprit appears to be neurotoxins contained in anti-mosquito, anti-malaria insecticides (e.g., DDT). I circulated this story as widely as possible in Nigeria and in other predominantly Muslim countries. I'm now working with my Nigerian Muslim friends & associates on upcoming April presidential elections. 'My' candidate has a good chance to win -- unless the elections are fixed in part by the West (again)...

Although I initially repeated & circulated some of the post-Muslim-patsy stories about Israelis possibly or probably being primarily responsible for or disproportionately involved in 9/11, as I semi-thoroughly researched this 9/11 angle, I found that Israelis & Jews were probably (also) being tarred & feathered as alternative patsies for 9/11. Unfortunately, half the world may believe that the Jews & their Neo-Con allies did 9/11 (including significant portions of the so-called 9/11 Truth Movement).

Proponents of "The Jews & Israelis Did 9/11 Hypothesis" will not publicly debate the few people who are sufficiently knowledgeable about the plethora of Red Herrings surrounding this 9/11 issue. Nevertheless, I encourage thorough research into this issue in order to find at least ONE "smoking gun" that is not a Red Herring or Limited Hang-Out (if such exists -- it may not). So far, I have found NONE. I continue to look. And I continue to encourage 'respectable' discussion & debate between & amongst 'reputable' spokespeople on this issue. So far, i have no 'takers' (or only one side & not the other -- each time that I've tried).

Even before Fintan's Fetzer interview on "The Destruction of the USA," I pushed the idea that Daddy Bush's Boy George & the Neo-Cons are long-time patsies being set up for a fall on 9/11, Iraq, etc. This resonates well and results in "smoother" sailing on non-OGCT 9/11 issues amongst both Democrats and Republicans.

In 2004, I (quietly) didn't vote for either Bush or Kerry. I didn't vote. Period. DC's presidential electoral votes would go for Kerry no matter how I voted. However, I did get to know three (3) of Kerry's putative 'high officials' and came 'distantly close' to mounting a legal challenge to the electoral fraud. To say the least, it was interesting to watch these guys go from wanting to challenge the 2004 fruadulent fix to saying "Take you complaints to the General Accountability Office. They're doing an investigation." :roll:

Given my semi-inside info on electoral fraud against candidates that I at least nominally supported, a decent publisher asked me to write & edit several books on electoral fraud around the world. Although I might have made some money doing this, I didn't do it. I chose to continue work on more pressing matters -- that may be paradoxically more doable. These issues include but are not limited to Tesla-type & other oil replacement technologies, crop-doubling agricultural technologies, cheap earth-girdling universal telecom technologies, 9/11, etc.

The above is unfortunately just the tip of the iceberg of projects on which I'm actively and not-so-actively working. I'm spread too thin (to the point of being ineffective). There are also more controversial projects on which I'm working, which I'll probably discuss in the BFN Forum at a later date. I don't need or want your approval. But I would like feedback. Nevertheless, I'm not a 'big fish' (or even a "big lemon" -- your term Smile ). I'm not even a member of the National Press Club. And I go there only once every two (2) weeks (max.). However, I do get speakers & send out email notices for one of their groups. Fintan & Kathy get copies.


You ask: "Do you see everyone as your opponent, TJ[?]"

No. Quite the opposite. I see almost everyone as potentially persuadable on 9/11 issues -- if approached in an appropriate manner. This may be part of my problem. Even when I should give up on some people, I don't.


You say: "Market share can be way overrated, especially if one must compromise to get it... I sure don't want to be associated with left wingnut shills..."

If we don't have it already, then we almost have enough 'market share' to make a real difference (i.e., with those who know that the OGCT is false in significant respects). What we may be missing (or not seeing) is the social & other 'machinery' to remedy the pre-math & after-math of 9/11. There is NO government on this planet that is ready, willing & able to bring the 9/11 perps 'to justice.' Does that mean that we should rule out 'justice'? No.

Nevertheless, we can't even 'remedy' the problems until a 'critical mass' of this nation and/or other significant nations know the nature & extent of the problems (they don't) -- and are ready, willing & able to do something about them (they're not). As I see it, this is A purpose of the 9/11 3i BFN Forum. I don't care if they're Right Wingers, Left Wingers, Center Wingers, or No Wingers. The 'Divide & Conquer' strategy of the 9/11 Cover-Up & PsyOp Perps has gone far enough -- i.e., too far! Calling too many people an 'agent' (witting or unwitting) can be one tactic in this 'Divide-&-Conquer' strategy...


You say: "It all about understanding market segmentation, isn't it? Startup 101."

Fintan & others understand this area better than I do. However, I know enough not to bring coal to Newcastle -- or Halal pork to the Jews. Twisted Evil


You say & you ask: "Dude, there are others here that can make wind. By the way, how well do lemons sail?"

I too can provide my own tail wind... Butt, my closest experience to 'sailing lemons' was getting into a friendly, 'overly-ripe,' orange-throwing 'fight' at 50 meters with some newly-met friends in a Mexican orchard. Ex-Squeeze me?


You say: "I do not see how you can 'align' with the goals here, as the means are the ends in the making."

Ah, making ends meet... I can sometimes do that. However, yes, the medium is the message. And our means are our interim goals (if not our final ones). 'Don't worry; Be happy' -- 'Fear & Confusion,' gone! ... "Full Spectrum Liberty," here we come...


Speaking of 'that,' you say: "But everyone knows that Mini-me was the BIG brain of the operation."

I know, I know... Have you got 'that' problem too? Tell me about it...

P.S. Getting back to the topic at hand, "The world is a peculiar place -- except for me and thee; and sometimes I [too] wonder about..." me... Twisted Evil Wink

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videodrome666



Joined: 14 Mar 2007
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Location: United States of America,Canada and Mexico,etc.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: I'm sure I'll get fire from hell for this... Reply with quote

jose wrote:
But hey, what the heck, you only live once!

Fintan!

Speaking of CIA fakes and how they are making fools of themselves to purposely discredit anyone who doesn't buy the official story about a mad Arab in a cave, here is an observation about your last show:

After ranting for 40 minutes about clowns who believe in space beams and holograms, just two minutes before the show ends, you reiterate about the lunacy that goes in the 9/11 truth movement.

Then you proceed, out of nowhere, to talk about "The Mayan Calendar" by by Carl Johan Calleman and Jose Arguelles...

Great! So the leading debunker of the lunatics of 9/11, closes his expose recommending a book coauthored by a guy who believes in galactic beams, Mayan etheric engineering, Arcturian space stations, Atlantian family histories and claims to be Valum Votan, the reincarnation of the Maya ruler Pacal Votun!




What the hell?!?!? Michael Hayden will gladly send your check this month.

Well done man! I think we deserve an explanation dude...


Hey, it could have been worse, he never mentioned " The Mayan Prophesies" by Maurice Cotterell.
Maybe the Mayan (pronounced-My-in ) research should be left to, Angela M.H. Schuster, Michael Coe, Ian Graham, Anotheny F. Aveni, Mary Miller, Patrick Culbert, Linda Schele, Peter Matthews, et al.
Even though the Mayan were extremely advanced in astronomy, they still participated in blood letting rituals that included death, torture, maiming of others and themselves. They would give each other alcoholic enemas of pulque, and priests would drive stingray barbs through their dick. I don`t know if this is the civilization to model after, but the pink bunnies of the "New Age" movement are running with it. In a lot of "New Age" bookstores all that "Mayans were clairvoyant" stuff is mixed in with the lizards in U.F.O.s took down the Trade Centres (US Center).
"We dance around in a ring and suppose, while the secret sits in the middle and knows"-Robert Frost.
Confused Confused Confused

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Last edited by videodrome666 on Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fintan
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Jose: Then you proceed, out of nowhere, to talk about
"The Mayan Calendar" by Carl Johan Calleman and Jose Arguelles...

Great! So the leading debunker of the lunatics of 9/11, closes his expose recommending a book coauthored by a guy who believes in galactic beams, Mayan etheric engineering, Arcturian space stations, Atlantian family histories and claims to be Valum Votan, the reincarnation of the Maya ruler Pacal Votun!


Ooooops. You goofed. I never mentioned Jose Whatsisname.

The book I mentioned has nothing to do with Jose Whatsisname.

It was written by Carl Calleman alone. On his own. By himself.

Not with Peter, Derek, Anne, John, Andrew, Anthony, Samuel or Jose.

It's:
Solving the Greatest Mystery of Our Time : The Mayan Calendar (Paperback)
by Carl Johan Calleman (Author) Read Reviews on Amazon HERE

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