Malaysia MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine

News & Views on All Topics
Post Reply
User avatar
Kentus
Posts: 228
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:21 am

Southpark Fan wrote:Image

A Mig 29 shoot down of MH17?

Check photo with Fotoforensics http://fotoforensics.com/faq.php

Image

Image

Image

Source: http://www.1tv.ru/news/leontiev/271824
Definitely MIG-29. Did a little work on the photo to determine the exact profile.

TIFF (download only) http://telemarksporten.no/Airplanes/Sat ... MIG_29.tif

Jpeg: http://telemarksporten.no/Airplanes/Sat ... MIG_29.jpg

With some uncertainty the Ukranian air force has 126 MIG-29 in their inventory as of 2014.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ipment.htm

Kent
User avatar
Kentus
Posts: 228
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:21 am

Higher res picture.

Image

Camouflage looks like this one
Image

Kent
User avatar
Fintan
Site Admin
Posts: 9029
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:46 pm
Contact:

Wow. That would be a smoking gun!

But there are problems with the pics - even without forensics.

So this could be reverse/black Ops - designed to discredit the 'air-air' missile theory and thus sustain the ground-air "Buk" missile theory.

The issue is laid out here - with translation :
Minds are like parachutes.
They only function when open.
User avatar
Fintan
Site Admin
Posts: 9029
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:46 pm
Contact:

Minds are like parachutes.
They only function when open.
User avatar
Rumpl4skn
Posts: 2950
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:54 pm
Location: 36� 3'N x 86�40'W
Contact:

Rocket trajectory is off. Even with a heat-seeker, you still must LEAD the target. This rocket would have a low probability of a strike.
"No matter what happens, ever... there's ALWAYS at least one reason. And the top reason is ALWAYS money."
User avatar
Fintan
Site Admin
Posts: 9029
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:46 pm
Contact:

Rumpl4skn Rocket trajectory is off.
... you still must LEAD the target...
Of course! - now that you point it out... lol

Good catch. Fakery alert.
Minds are like parachutes.
They only function when open.
User avatar
Rumpl4skn
Posts: 2950
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:54 pm
Location: 36� 3'N x 86�40'W
Contact:

One of the very the limited benefits of many wasted hours playing air warfare games. :lol:

There's more wrong - the entire angle of the encounter is wrong. That jet liner is traveling somewhere between 400-600 mhp, across his view. If this was a real attack, that fighter would have to be in a serious bank to his right. His heads up targeting display would be locking on the target, with the bullseye pulling significantly to the right, which is where the rocket would be firing, not straight out in the direction of flight.

The only way for the missile to then hit the target is if he is indeed pulling hard right, allowing the missile to make a serious right-hand angle when fired.

I tried to find a screen clip from an air war game, but haven't yet. Stay tuned.
"No matter what happens, ever... there's ALWAYS at least one reason. And the top reason is ALWAYS money."
User avatar
Southpark Fan
Posts: 1512
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:56 pm
Location: The Caribbean of Canada

The Ukranian mig -29 would be carrying the Vympel R-73 (NATO reporting name AA-11 Archer). The R-73 was developed to replace the earlier R-60 (AA-8 'Aphid') weapon for short-range use by Soviet fighter aircraft.

These missiles are filled with rod shrapnel. Buk missiles are filled with ball shrapnel.

https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2 ... EpcVe2sZbw
Upper side. Possible damages from air-air missile, not shrapnel.

The R-73 is an infrared-guided (heat-seeking) missile with a sensitive, cryogenic cooled seeker with a substantial "off-boresight" capability: the seeker can "see" targets up to 40° off the missile's centerline. It can be targeted by a helmet-mounted sight (HMS) allowing pilots to designate targets by looking at them. Minimum engagement range is about 300 meters, with maximum aerodynamic range of nearly 30 km (19 mi) at altitude.

The R-73 is a highly maneuverable missile and mock dogfights have indicated that the high degree of "off-boresight" capability of the R-73 would make a significant difference in combat. The missile also has a mechanically simple but effective system for thrust-vectoring. The R-73 prompted the development of a number of western air-to-air missiles including the AIM-132 ASRAAM, IRIS-T, MICA IR, Python IV and the latest Sidewinder variant, the AIM-9X which entered squadron service in 2003.

From 1994, the R-73 has been upgraded in production to the R-73M standard, which entered CIS service in 1997. The R-73M has greater range and a wider seeker angle (to 60° off-boresight), as well as improved IRCCM (Infrared Counter-Counter-Measures). Further developments include the R-74 (izdeliye 740) and its export variant RVV-MD.

An improved version of the R-74, the K-74M (izdeliye 750) features fully digital and re-programmable systems, and is intended for use on the MiG-35 or MiG-29K/M/M2 and Su-27SM, Su-30MK and Su-35S. A further upgrade, known as the K-74M2 (izdeliye 760), is intended for the fifth-generation Sukhoi PAK FA aircraft. This missile has reduced cross section to fit in internal weapon bays and will match the performance of the AIM-9X and the ASRAAM. A clean sheet design, the K-MD (izdeliye 300), will supersede the K-74M2 in the future.


:: R-73 - Standard model with ±45° off-boresight.
:: R-73M - Improved model.
:: R-74 (izdeliye 740) - Improved model with ±60° off-boresight.
:: RVV-MD - Export model of the R-74.
:: K-74M (izdeliye 750) - Improved model with ±75° off-boresight. (This would have been used)
:: K-74M2 (izdeliye 760) - Further improved variant with reduced cross-section for the PAK FA. Intended to match the AIM-9X and ASRAAM.


Video games are not the same. This is a heads up display fire and forget missile. Ask US pilots if they fear this weapon. I bet the answer is yes. This missile system has been advanced and its specs updated. You do not have to lead a lumbering passenger jet.

If real, (I believe they are) the above are not Sat photos. They were taken from a drone or aircraft flying at a higher altitude. For a bird eye view of the earth rape peepshow.
"Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend." - Bruce Lee
"Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth." - Buddha
User avatar
Peter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: The Canadian shield

Do heat-seeking missiles need to lead the target? I thought that they followed the engine heat trail from behind to make it to the objective.
The grand design, reflected in the face of Chaos.
User avatar
Southpark Fan
Posts: 1512
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:56 pm
Location: The Caribbean of Canada

Unreported: Rostov’s MH17 flight data
Olga Luzanova | December 11, 2014 | Slavyangrad

On Tuesday [November 11, 2014—ed.] at the APEC Summit in Beijing, discussions about the crash of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 in eastern Ukraine arose once again. According to Western media, the Australian Prime Minister told Vladimir Putin the Australian version of the accident according to the Australian intelligence service. Nothing new—the Australian, as well as the European and American intelligence agencies, assert: the liner was destroyed by a missile fired from a rocket launcher.

However, the facts tell us a different story. A document, certifying that at the time of the disaster a military aircraft was near flight MH17, has been made available to “MK”—a fact which the West is trying hard to ignore.

Image
Source: https://slavyangrad.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/002.jpg

This document—a snapshot of the radar data of an air traffic controller at the time of the MH17 disaster—was granted to “MK” by the advisory and analytical agency, “Flight Safety”. We asked Sergei Melnichenko, the director-general of the agency, to comment on the air traffic situation data presented in this picture. He told us the following:

— I would not like to fully disclose the source of this information; however, if a specialist were to look at the picture, he would immediately understand where it came from—the photo was taken in an air traffic control centre. I worked for a long time in one and am well acquainted with the equipment used there.

The picture which we are now discussing, is, so we can say, the data which came from the Rostov air traffic control centre.

The radar in the Rostov area ‘sees’ the air traffic situation not only up to the border, but also somewhat further. This is necessary in order to know what is awaiting our air traffic controllers within the next few minutes: what approaching planes are about to enter their control, what intervals there are between them, at what altitude they are tracking… Accordingly, the radars ‘look’ beyond the border. Anyway a border is a broken line, while the radar coverage area is something closer to a circle. Therefore, though not all of the information above Ukraine is visible from the Russian side, the part which is now in question—and the aircraft was shot down in close proximity to our borders—was, of course, captured by the Rostov radar.

That information, then, has been collated and presented precisely as in the images here. We fully and completely trust the sources who have helped us to make it public.

— Does it correspond with the data presented by the Russian General Staff on the third day after the disaster?

— Our data are somewhat more precise than those presented by the military. They did not present the airline flight path so precisely. I do not know, perhaps they did this intentionally. But the overall picture—yes, it coincides with what the military presented at their press conference.

— What conclusion do you draw on the basis of the data from the Rostov radar?

— The data represent the trajectories of aircraft movements for the period up to 13:40:55 UTC.

— How does this relate to the timing of the crash?

— This is a picture of the events from the time of the accident, plus another twenty minutes after it—from the moment at which the signal from the Boeing disappeared. That is to say, it is not a momentary snapshot but a record of the movements of the aircraft in the area after the disaster.

The image represents a display of the radar used for air traffic control. It clearly shows that at the moment of the disaster, and after it, movement of some aircraft was observed to the North of the Boeing’s route. Most likely, military, since the tags are very closely grouped. One may conclude that it is either one or two aircraft. In any case, there was definitely something there.

The “unidentified object” is marked in the photo by the letters “T”. The blue lines show the other aircrafts’ routes. The lilac line shows the trajectory of flight MH17. The point where the line ends is the locality where the surface radars received a signal from the Boeing for the last time.

— How did you reach the conclusion that the “unidentified objects” in the area of the Boeing were military aircraft?

— Because they transmitted only primary radar signals.

— What do you mean by “primary”?

— How does radar work? It sends signals to all sides of the sky. And if there is an aircraft there, it is detected and a label appears on the radar screen, which shows that there is something in the sky. Though it is not clear what exactly it is. For the air traffic controllers to identify the objects, the aircraft should be equipped with special devices called transponders. They receive a signal from the radar and respond to it. When the transponder is on, a controller can see the transponder code, which is set by the crew, altitude, speed and the other parameters required for air traffic control.

Military aircraft are either not equipped with transponders or pilots switch them off while conducting combat missions. In that case, only a primary label can be seen on the radar screen. It means you cannot identify exactly what kind of aircraft was there—neither its type nor the altitude. Though the fact that the plane was there is unquestionable.

You know the Militia has no air force. If it had been a Russian aircraft, you can imagine what a noise would have been raised in the world concerning Russia violating the airspace of a sovereign country. However, so far no military airplane of our state has violated the Ukrainian border.

Image
Source: https://slavyangrad.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/003.jpg

— What if they did it without being noticed?

— No, that is not possible. Ukrainian radars would have registered everything immediately, and we would have received a corresponding diplomatic note, as there is a standard procedure for such cases.

— Such a violation would surely have been registered by NATO satellites, which—as we now know—were situated above that location at the time, as well as NATO AWACS aircraft monitoring that borderline zone.

— NATO and Ukraine, both would have already responded long ago. Yet they did not—because there was nothing to respond to.

However, without any facts, they are trying to convince all of us—including Europeans and Australians—that there was an air defense complex, delivered from Russia, which, allegedly, brought down the Boeing 777. They just try to ignore the data taken from the radar screen (the labels marked with the letters “T”), which proved the fact that a military aircraft was in the air space for another 20 minutes after the disaster.

However, the availability of these markers on the radar screen conflicts with statements of the Ukrainian side that the Ukrainian Air Force conducted no flights in the investigated time frame.

It is also important that the location of the markers on the radar screen to the left of the Boeing’s course correspond with the photos made at the crash site, in which you can clearly see the signs of external action at the left wing and the left side of the Boeing 777 cockpit.
"Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend." - Bruce Lee
"Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth." - Buddha
User avatar
Southpark Fan
Posts: 1512
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:56 pm
Location: The Caribbean of Canada

<iframe id="ytplayer" type="text/html" width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fwC9RJopkHU" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Original letter on De Nieuwe Realist
By Hana333
“Every day I am glued to my PC to read as much as possible about the MH17 crash. Part of this is also following the articles of Joost. What gives me comfort as to the relative of killed passengers is that there are still people who care about the real events behind the crash. It is not relevant for me which position one takes. With all the non-investigation by who knows whom it is really logic that opinions are and will always be different. Although I read a lot of external information and opinions, my personal cognisance and experience in this matter are very important for me, and nobody can contest or take them away from me. Simply because nobody else has this information, but my family and, personally, me.

From my perspective as a victim’s relative, I want to share my story with you as mainly smart and intelligent people. I have waited long enough as far as I am concerned. I do not want to get involved in a political yes-or-no game, simply because I was not personally involved in the investigation in Ukraine, and because I am an apolitical person. Politics is something I simply do not understand, and I consider it to my benefit that there is simply no place for politics in my ideal world.

As you might be able to imagine, as a victim’s relative, I got into a wave of dismay, disbelief, chaos, sadness, denial, anger, and everything else that comes along. You can call it a state of shock. This kind of makes you handicapped and you are no longer able to react adequately. In such a situation, there is no alternative but to expect the government to support and take care of you as a child of the nation, and protect your interests as though you were its own child. None of this appears to be true to me!

When I was finally able to free myself of such emotional fog, which the government exaggerated (deliberately) during the “Nationale Verdenking” [literally “National Accusation”, used here as a name for “National Rememberence” day, representing a pun in Dutch, where “Herdenking” means “Rememberence”, but “Verdenking” stands for Accusation—ed.], it was November 11! I realized for the second time during this year that I had been trapped in a Kafkaesque situation in which the victim was actually responsible for an adequate investigation, because those who were formally responsible and were paid for that, were not doing it for whatever reasons. It happened for the first time after my daughter had undergone almost lethal attack by a pack of eleven dogs of one breeder, and for the second time after the crash of MH17 in which my relatives had been lost. The similarity of both cases is striking.

One is clear beyond any doubt: both cases are horrible, but what happened afterwards was even worse. That one, even as a relative of victims, is being misled by the government, and being lied to without receiving proper information about the real causes and events, results in immense psychological damage, for which there is no compensation. You get this without even asking for it—free of charge! That it is impossible to process the horrible events under these circumstances does not seem to matter to the government. That the government also has an obligation to provide care to its citizens does not seem to have been registered. Actually, the government is abusing the emotional state in which the relatives find themselves. In addition, the government purposefully leaves room for all kinds of speculations by which the discontent and disagreement between the people only increases. And last but not least, when you finally, even as a relative of the victims, start to ask critical questions about the investigation, the same government keeps you at arm’s length and treats you as a conspiracy theorists or even as a perpetrator.

The year 2015 appears to be a good one to finally expunge the word “secret” from our vocabulary. Only complete openness and transparency can lift us, as humanity, on to a higher plane. This has been my conviction for a long time and the fact that, thus far, I did not go public about MH17 has nothing to do with secrecy but solely with my inability, so far, to collect the energy to make things clear. The emotional fog has disappeared by now but my emotions continue messing me up every day.

These are my personal experiences and questions after the MH17 crash. I am convinced that there is much more to it than what we know for now, and this has made me very sceptical about both the investigation itself and those who are supposed to be conducting it, even more so towards the supposed future outcome of this all.

The day before the cremation of our relative, we received the belongings which were found alongside their body. It was a wallet with cards and money, soaked in a strange smelling chemical, a somewhat greasy substance. In addition there was a metal object which, at the time, back in September 2014, we were not able to identify. None of us had ever seen anything like it before and we were not able to relate it in any way to our family member. Only during the journey back from the National Memorial did I take a closer look at this object again. At the bottom was engraved: VARCO 2630. When I researched this it turned out to be part used in the oil industry. An employee of the manufacturer told me that these objects were also used during the 1980s as business gifts (as paper-weights) by people in the oil industry. In any case it was not something which belonged to our family member prior to the flight. The object weighs about eighty-five grams and is certainly an odd object to be carrying with you in your trousers on your way to a sunny vacation; particularly if you want to avoid unnecessary issues with the metal detectors at the airport.

When I searched the internet with the keywords “MH17” and “oil”, I received another shock because this was the moment when I realized what the outside world has been doing so far. Until now, I continued reading and informing my family. I also discovered that many people, including friends, see this as “not my cup of tea.” That there is much more behind the crash than just a conflict between two parties appears to escape the attention of the masses. And people just do not want to know. It is more than most people can endure.

What also shocked me was a film clip from an interview about pictures taken by a witness who was at the crash site twenty minutes after the crash. It was not the pictures themselves that shocked me, but the statement by the witness about the typical smell which, at a particular part of the wreckage, was unbearable, sent a shiver down my spine. When she described the smell my mind flashed back to the crematorium. According to the undertaker and the detectives the smell was so strong despite the specially sealed coffins and anti-odour candles because there had been excessive use of an anti-decomposition substance in Ukraine during the recovery of the bodies. It was also mentioned that this was caused by specially prepared body bags. My immediate question was: how is this possible? The penetrating smell was already noted twenty minutes after the crash. Were there spray trucks already available at that moment?

From this I came to my next question: what cargo was the plane carrying? I have not found any information regarding this. Until now we have also not received any other belongings. “No, these will be cleaned first.” Nobody bothered to ask us if we wanted the belongings to be cleaned. Presented as “caring for the relatives,” this could be used to remove all kinds of evidence! Or am I being too suspicious?

After the cremation more remains have been found which, of course, also must be cremated. We received papers on which the remains were registered. By signing these papers we would part from the remains of our relative and would authorize that they be cremated along with the remains of other victims. There would also be a commemorative monument connected with this. We decided to postpone signing. A few days later I realized that we had not received any copies of these documents so I enquired if we could be sent them. From the ongoing case about my daughter I have learned that a good filing system and administration are the foundations of obtaining justice. This made me think about what a good friend always tells me: “Do you know how the Germans almost won the war? By having a good administration!” Anyway, there was no positive response to my “odd question” of obtaining copies of the documents and even now we have not received any answer. I do not think I have to explain in detail to you smart and intelligent people how this approach has caused additional agitation and suspicion, and increased the emotional burden even further.

A few weeks ago, the money that we received in the wallet and which we then sent by special service of the Dutch Postal Service to the Dutch Bank has simply disappeared?!?!

There are additional questions which keep going through my mind:

Why was there no immediate response with a large rescue team as there was in the case of the QZ8501 crash? “Safety issues” in the area of the crash site is the cheapest excuse I have ever heard. Had they really wanted, they would have found a way. If they would have used all the money and all the security that was used for the “National Accusation”, beginning with the very ostentatious invitation cards, for an immediate investigation on-site, there would have been no shooting and shelling of the crash site. Anyone who might have tried that would have been caught red handed…

Or is it the case that the cargo of MH17 was not ‘kosher’ and therefore the investigation had to be kept at a distance from the very beginning?

The enormous delays in starting the investigation are completely out of proportion to the swift response of the government to a letter sent in December 2014 by a lawyer who, on behalf of some relatives of the victims, has challenged the competency of the Dutch government.

The fact that the government never apologized for their accusations against Russia, made without any kind of evidence in the immediate aftermath of the crash, disgusts me. We are all human beings and human beings make mistakes from which we can learn something. Owning up to having made a mistake and apologizing for it would have been a correct and humane gesture. However, after intense indoctrination (the first two reports about a topic make a lasting impression unless we consciously inform ourselves further—this is basic psychology), there was a sudden veil of secrecy and an attitude of ‘let the world be damned’ [orig. “und liess die Welt in Trümmern liegen”—ed.]. Any protests by citizens about censorship and secrecy by the government are rejected out of hand, supposedly out of consideration for the families of the victims. Does the government not realize that their extreme vagueness about the investigation and the resulting unrest and speculations are causing much more harm?

A few more questions which keep bothering me: Maybe I have missed something but is it not the case that MH17 had already changed its scheduled course over Poland? What was the reason behind this? And what was the real and important reason that Malaysia was not involved in the investigation from the beginning? One could not have harmed this country more under the circumstances. What about those NATO fighter planes in Poland? Why is everyone so sure that there was not a bomb on board? There are so many considerations and questions about the crash, maybe even more, since I have not been able to read everything.

I have been looking for answers but will honest answers ever be given? Joost may know, as far as I am concerned—by which I am not saying that I always agree with his view. But his views show depth, they invite you to contemplate the information he provides and they allow you to form your own opinion, something which is our common birthright.

I wish you all a year full of truth, honest cooperation, healthy tolerance and immense happiness.”

Hana333.
***

FINAL – Spanish Air Controller @ Kiev Borispol Airport: Ukraine Military Shot Down Boeing #MH17
Gleb Bazov | July 18, 2014
FLASH UPDATE: Industry Outlet Confirms Carlos (@spainbuca) as ATC at Borispol in Kiev

(See the Text of Carlos / @spainbuca Tweets Below the Article)

Original: EturboNews (ETN Global Travel Industry News) – July 17, 2014

ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.

The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.
"Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend." - Bruce Lee
"Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth." - Buddha
User avatar
Southpark Fan
Posts: 1512
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:56 pm
Location: The Caribbean of Canada

"Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend." - Bruce Lee
"Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth." - Buddha
Post Reply