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Chavez & Ahmadinejad Slam the New World Order
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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello too Rom,

obeylittle,
I'm keeping open-minded on Chavez as a "CIA-puppet". I think his relations with Cindy Sheehan and esp. Jimmy Walter visiting him seems very very odd. It seems to me that Lula and other leaders who are more compliant to the interests of the IMF and World Bank -- who spout some leftist rhetoric then betray it -- are more obviously TOOLS of Neo-Liberal capitalism.

OK, in a stereotypical Hegelian fashion you gotta have a Thesis and Anti-thesis, but that would be Chavez vs. USA. Chavez' "lesser shadows" do not seem to be far enough opposite Chavez to serve as Hegelian.
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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:29 am    Post subject: Aristide interview Reply with quote

Aristide interview accidentally sheds light on Chavez:
http://www.abahlali.org/node/844

Did we place too much trust in the Americans? Were we too dependent on external forces? No. It would be mere demagoguery for a Haitian president to pretend to be stronger than the Americans, or to engage them in a constant war of words, or to oppose them for opposing’s sake. The only rational course is to weigh up the relative balance of interests, to figure out what the Americans want, to remember what we want, and to make the most of the available points of convergence. In 1994, Clinton needed a foreign policy victory, and a return to democracy in Haiti offered him that opportunity; we needed an instrument to overcome the resistance of the murderous Haitian army, and Clinton offered us that instrument. We never had any illusions that the Americans shared our deeper objectives. But without them we couldn’t have restored democracy.


more:
PH: There was no alternative to reliance on American troops?

JBA: No. The Haitian people are not armed. There are criminals and vagabonds, drug dealers, gangs who have weapons, but the people have no weapons. You’re kidding yourself if you think that the people can wage an armed struggle. It’s pointless to wage a struggle on your enemies’ terrain, or to play by their rules. You will lose.

PH: Did you pay too high a price for American support? They forced you to make all kinds of compromise, to accept many of the things you’d always opposed – a severe structural adjustment plan, neoliberal economic policies, the privatisation of state enterprises etc. The Haitian people suffered a great deal under these constraints. It must have been very difficult to swallow these things, during the negotiations of 1993.

JBA: In 1993, the Americans were perfectly happy to agree to a negotiated economic plan. When they insisted, via the IMF and other international financial institutions, on the privatisation of state enterprises, I was prepared to agree in principle – but I refused simply to sell them off, unconditionally, to private investors. That there was corruption in the state sector was undeniable, but there were several different ways of engaging with it. Rather than untrammelled privatisation, I was prepared to agree to a democratisation of these enterprises, so that some of the profits of a factory or firm should go to the people who worked for it, be invested in nearby schools or health clinics, so that the workers’ children could derive some benefit. The Americans said fine, no problem.

But when I was back in office, they went back on our agreement, and then relied on a disinformation campaign to make it look as if I had broken my word. It’s not true. The accords we signed are there, people can judge for themselves. Unfortunately we didn’t have the means to win the public relations fight.
...
JBA: We had an army of some 7000 soldiers, and it absorbed 40 per cent of the national budget. Since 1915, it had served as an army of internal occupation. It never fought an external enemy. It murdered thousands of our people. Why did we need such an army, rather than a suitably trained police force?

We organised a social programme for the reintegration of disbanded soldiers.
...
Unlike the previous coups, the coup of 2004 wasn’t undertaken by the ‘Haitian’ army, acting on the orders of our little oligarchy, in line with the interests of foreign powers. No, this time these all-powerful interests had to carry out the job themselves, with their own troops and in their own name.
...
PH: Why were these people so aggressively hostile to you and your government? There’s something hysterical about the positions taken by the so-called Convergence Démocratique, and later by the Group of 184, by people like Gérard Pierre-Charles. They refused all compromise, they insisted on all sorts of conditions before they would even consider participating in another round of elections. The Americans seemed exasperated with them, but made no real effort to rein them in.

JBA: It was never really about me, it’s got nothing to do with me as an individual. They detest and despise the people. They refuse absolutely to acknowledge that everyone is equal. So when they behave in this way, part of the reason is to reassure themselves that they are different. It’s essential that they see themselves as better than others. I’m convinced it’s bound up with the legacy of slavery, with an inherited contempt for the common people, for the petits nègres. It’s the psychology of apartheid: it’s better to get down on your knees with whites than to stand shoulder to shoulder with blacks. Don’t underestimate the depth of this contempt.
...
We didn’t arm the chimères, the US armed Chamblain and Philippe. The hypocrisy is extraordinary. And then when it comes to 2004-6, suddenly all this indignant talk of violence falls silent. As if nothing had happened. People were being herded into containers and dropped into the sea. That counts for nothing. The endless attacks on Cité Soleil, they count for nothing. I could go on and on. Thousands have died. But they don’t count, because they are just chimères, after all.
...
PH: How do you envisage the future? Can there be any real change in Haiti without directly confronting the question of class privilege and power, without finding some way of overcoming the resistance of the dominant class?

JBA: We will have to confront these things, one way or another. The sine qua non for doing this is obviously the participation of the people. Once the people are genuinely able to participate in the democratic process, then they will be able to devise an acceptable way forward. In any case the process itself is irreversible. It’s irreversible at the mental level. Members of the impoverished sections of Haitian society now have an experience of democracy, and they will not allow a government or a candidate to be imposed on them. They demonstrated this in February 2006, and I know they will keep on demonstrating it. Everything comes back, in the end, to the simple principle that tout moun se moun – every person is indeed a person, every person is capable of thinking things through for themselves. Those who don’t accept this, when they look at the nègres of Haiti – and consciously or unconsciously, that’s what they see – they see people who are too poor, too crude, too uneducated, to think for themselves. They see people who need others to make their decisions for them. It’s a colonial mentality, in fact, and still very widespread among our political class. It’s also a projection: they project onto the people a sense of their own inadequacy, their own inequality in the eyes of the master.
...
The Neocons ARE worse:
From 1993 to 1994, for instance, there were people in the US government who were willing to listen at least a little, and this helped the democratic process to move forward. Since 2000 we’ve had to deal with a US administration that is diametrically opposed to its predecessor, and everything slowed down dramatically, or went into reverse. The problem isn’t simply a Haitian one. We still need to develop new ways of reducing and eventually eliminating our dependence on foreign powers.

------
This describes a lot of practical limitations and struggles, good to keep in mind.

This is on a website about ongoing struggles for justice in South Africa.
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indigitydogdignation



Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 313

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
obeylittle: Well I think Sheehan is... whether she is an official intel spook or not, she IS playing the game among the intel gamers. Hers is a managed op with known spooks associated and directly involved. Many will disagree with me and that is good... because hers is one that should remain open to compilation of facts and discussion.


Good, because we don't help ourselves by calling the family members of victims by any lesser names. Most 9/11 families were steered off course more noticably, yet the movers and shakers within their ranks could be the only lingering voices we still can trust, despite all the moves to subvert them or tweak their efforts. Their personal/emotional stake could not be more genuine. The discernment they've shown in sorting through the 'evidence,' either rejecting or holding their tounges on much of it, speaks loudly, imo.

Three years ago I was convinced that the families just didn't 'get it,' and many of them really didn't. Most weren't making enough noise, (that we could hear anyway,) while others incorporated red-herrings left and right, perhaps with the help of the steering committee, but I've come to a point where 9/11 Press for Truth is the only truth vid I feel comfortable recommending.

Quote:
obeylittle: I like to compare the products that the covert operators produce to the shoddy corporate products that we consume. Both are poorly engineered, requiring several revisions to become workable. Neither ever do work as designed. Both involve the services of too many incompetent people (and those with special interest "riders" attached), end-to-end, from the "idea" stages through the execution stages. Both are pushed through production cycles with impatience, leading many times to brute force tactical adjustments to the "target market". Both require extensive and elaborate cover ups following the production cycle aftermath to escape legal scrutiny. Both are... well, just undeniably shitty.



TV, internet, electronic diversions are a double-edged sword for them - have been for a long time. They're challenged with the task of connecting us all in ways that will foment chaos, or at least the illusion of it, but the show is more interesting than the chore of involving oneself.... full-spectrum dominance strums a weak second fiddle to full-spectrum flatulence in every corner of the globe. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Pffffft - ahhhhhh
Smile
The less we do the safer we are. If you're inclined to 'do less' in a constructive sort of way, then stop feeding these bastards with your illegal tax dollars and show some real courage for a change.


Last edited by indigitydogdignation on Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ormond



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 1556
Location: Belly of the Beast, Texas

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Dilbert_G:
I was talking with a Saudi the other night, engineering student. He had some interesting insights into the Arab world. He WANTS (for now) US hegemony, because the US has prevented them from developing a military (for Israel's sake) so he's afraid in a power vacuum another Arab state or Russia or China would just take their stuff. Defenseless without America.

Yet the FBI has interviewed this guy several times ... about his activities and thoughts.


I muse that we may be living in a time in the US when the 'left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing'.
The Saudi knows that the position of Saudi Arabia was created by US oil. Naturally he senses what will happen if the benefactors ever abandon them.

But that's now guaranteed not to happen for another decade or longer.

Current events: Since March 1st, the Louvre sold it's controlling patronage to the Saudis for 1.3 billion, and are building a new Louvre in Abu Dhabi.

This week, none other than Haliburton announced they are moving their headquarters from Houston to Dubai (Las Vegas Middle East).

This week it became official: the seat of the West energy industry is picking up stakes in Houston, and moving to Dubai.
This signals a significant shift which the MSM has buried in back page emphasis.
What it means is that they're leaving America because they're done with it.
Haliburton and energy cabal pontiffs will now be playing rounds of golf in the obscenely artificial desert oasis of Dubai, careless of supposed impending missle exchanges in the middle east with Iran, maybe Russia, China, whatever.

Oh no. This gives the game away--though the media mentioned it like a throwaway line.

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Aurora025



Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chavez, Castro and Ahmadinejad are all freemasons and they all serve the same master who is sitting in Rome.





Pictures sometimes tell a thousands words.

Fidel Castro meets the SMOM Grandmaster Andrew Willoughby Ninian Bertie





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James D



Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 981

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to repeat this from "Is Castro CIA" thread, but..
Perhaps here it is more appropriate.

Fidel Castro is the grandaddy master statesman of them all and wiser than any.
People who know( not me )say he has a pure white aura!
(If that means anything to anyone)
You could tell me he was CIA ,( # and now a mason !), present me with a written confession, dates,places, people and all and I would Not believe you.

Cuba wants Guantanamo back and hoped the UN would pressure the USA to honour it's agreements, but will not act illegally outwith international law(unlike some), so it's not going to reclaim it by force and play into the imperialist's hands.

But the US invading Cuba!! You'll think Iraq was a party.
12 million Cubans Would fight to the death to defend their freedom and a lot of missiles Would start landing in Miami.
Don't doubt it and forget anything you thought was true about Cuba from 45 + years of US media bullshit!
Read Helms Burton's plan for Cuba after it is re-conquered if you are wondering ' why?' they would resist so strongly.

Lift the embargo and leave them in peace for at least another 45 years and then if you want you could make a reasonable comment.

"HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE" dudes!


The photos prove nothing regarding Fidel Castro.
I'm sure he's had several conversations with the devil himself and told him to "comer mierda".
That aura is still pure, bright and white FOR ME and it wouldn't be if he was serving any freemasonery masters' agenda.
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Aurora025



Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James D wrote:
Sorry to repeat this from "Is Castro CIA" thread, but..
Perhaps here it is more appropriate.

Fidel Castro is the grandaddy master statesman of them all and wiser than any.
People who know( not me )say he has a pure white aura!
(If that means anything to anyone)
You could tell me he was CIA ,( # and now a mason !), present me with a written confession, dates,places, people and all and I would Not believe you.

Cuba wants Guantanamo back and hoped the UN would pressure the USA to honour it's agreements, but will not act illegally outwith international law(unlike some), so it's not going to reclaim it by force and play into the imperialist's hands.

But the US invading Cuba!! You'll think Iraq was a party.
12 million Cubans Would fight to the death to defend their freedom and a lot of missiles Would start landing in Miami.
Don't doubt it and forget anything you thought was true about Cuba from 45 + years of US media bullshit!
Read Helms Burton's plan for Cuba after it is re-conquered if you are wondering ' why?' they would resist so strongly.

Lift the embargo and leave them in peace for at least another 45 years and then if you want you could make a reasonable comment.

"HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE" dudes!




The photos prove nothing regarding Fidel Castro.
I'm sure he's had several conversations with the devil himself and told him to "comer mierda".
That aura is still pure, bright and white FOR ME and it wouldn't be if he was serving any freemasonery masters' agenda.


Yeah right Confused
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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a lot of Cubans who hate Castro.

There are apparently a lot of Cubans of either Love Castro or know that the US would like to turn Cuba into a "free market paradise" like Haiti, and respect Castro for preventing that.

I cannot weigh in directly, but I know of one or two persons who travelled there and got to see the ghetto as well as the official parts of the tour. They remarked on the SPIRIT of the Cuban people, in particular the LOVING PARTY SPIRIT.

Not that Americans are mean, but I think the rulers are cultivating a spirit of meanness in America.

ORMOND: Thanks for the frightening info on the abandonment of Houston.

ROM: the claim for Chavez as a "CIA-puppet" is mostly related to the people he's associated with, the most skanky being Jimmy Walter who says that it was a holographic Blue LASER image of a plane which plowed into the 2nd Tower. This is NOT a hard fact against Chavez. It's merely an inference and observation.

Much of Break for News is inference and observation, educated guesses, in that we do not have subpeona powers or any kind of direct access to anything. Americans are a democratic population kept on a need-to-know basis. Smile As is most everyone on the planet.

In addition, there is Chavez seemingly over-the-top Bush bashing. I understand, from Arisitide for example, that BushCo truly is El Diablo insofar as other countries are concerned, he's WORSE than Clinton et al. (I think Chavez' El Diablo reference was cool and funny, but probably not appropriate for a Head of State. In other words, it was potentially as asinine as calling four countries the "Axis of Evil". (Upon consideration, I don't equate the two exactly. One is just slamming a peer, maybe even locker room talk. The other consists of a military threat against millions of innocent people.)

On the other hand, if WE know that Bush is a PUPPET and a SALESMAN and a nasty jerk, but NOT the TRUE POWER of the USA and NOT whole magnitudes worse than Democratic regimes, but Bush is just the latest representative expression of US hegemony, then surely Chavez must know that too. Eh? Right?
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James D



Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 981

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Fair and balanced reply dilbert_g.

I should really let it go, but...

I don't really know shit about Cuba, nor do you and nor does anyone else on this forum I suspect - no disrespect to any of you.

The only ones who know are Cubans living in Cuba.

You can't argue the subject of Cuba with "Anglo-saxon" types (Scots,Irish,Australians etc included with apologies), because they just don't get it. Latin Americans probably have a much better understanding but it is still quite particular only to Cuba.

Maybe the Palestinians or the People of the Sahara understand even more but they are still different cases with different particular problems.

For a little education on the subject of the UN and the blockade try here :-

http://www.cubavsbloqueo.cu/informe2006/ingles/indexing.html

I have great admiration for the Cuban People and their (now almost spiritual) leader Fidel Castro.
One thing is for certain - he is far too wise and dignified to be a mason.
If he was Cuba would be Haiti II and it most certainly is not!

"Hasta la victoria siempre" dudes , but gotta go ,later if you like .
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internetchatradio



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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject: chavez is not cia but tracked by cia Reply with quote

http://internetchatradio.com/breaking_news_/view/940/rctv_and_the_cia_plot_chavez_demise
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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post.

When I read about Human Rights Watch background, I realized it was CIA.

I think it was Wikipedia or somewhere explained that (before I was old enuf to know) Human Rights was an issue USED to challenge the USSR. Not that anyone in the US gave a flying fuck, it's just like "Saddam killed his own people" Exclamation schlock. HRW led these charges against the USSR and I think Iraq. It's the CIA's Amnesty International. I think Amnesty is the Israelis' HRW, or at least they don't complain TOO much about Palestinians (as I recall).
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john23



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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


by your friends shall ye be known
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