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Who Did 9/11 - And Why?
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aAzzAa



Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 1140

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Just Reply with quote

Continuity wrote:
aAzzAa wrote:
I see, and should one assume you are yet another scisci/occidental clone?
You know, the little idiot that has spoofed my email, signed me up to countless newsletters and forums, and generally shat all over the concept of libertarian?

Jesus Balding Christ, aAzzAa - we know!

Please stop going on about it everywhere you post. Thank you. [smiley=lipsrsealed.gif]


Well if it should ever happen again I'll know to ignore it from the start.
And it isn't "everywhere", only when it rears its ugly mug.
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anima_kulture



Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 282
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:40 am    Post subject: Re: Just Reply with quote

aAzzAa wrote:
Continuity wrote:
aAzzAa wrote:
I see, and should one assume you are yet another scisci/occidental clone?
You know, the little idiot that has spoofed my email, signed me up to countless newsletters and forums, and generally shat all over the concept of libertarian?

Jesus Balding Christ, aAzzAa - we know!

Please stop going on about it everywhere you post. Thank you. [smiley=lipsrsealed.gif]


Well if it should ever happen again I'll know to ignore it from the start.
And it isn't "everywhere", only when it rears its ugly mug.


But I don't believe you, every post you seem to make starts with "
Grumpy is cool blah blah blah..." or "scisci is neat blah blah blah..." or "I love TEXAS blah blah blah..." Why should we here at B4N think that you would (could) ever ignore occidental's beer mug?


just saying Embarassed

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Fernando_the_First



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, while everyone is having coffee, I might was well post my theory here, in the appropriate thread.

Saudi Arabia did 9/11. They did it to force G.W. Bush to use the U.S. military to attack the enemies of Saudi Arabia. The Taliban in Aghanistan was one enemy and they were attacked immediately. But the most important thing was to remove Saddam Hussein from Iraq and remove the threat of invasion by Iraq. It took time to organize this, but it happened and we know the rest.

The U.S. had exerted control over Saudi Arabia indirectly by means of the threat of leaving Saudi Arabia at the mercy of Saddam Hussein. This worked out well because Saddam Hussein was a U.S. puppet. He fought a proxy war against Iran for the U.S. and then fought a sham war against Kuwait as a part of plan to intimidate Saudi Arabia and thereby control oil prices. This plan worked well and led to an unprecedented decade of prosperity in the U.S.

9/11 was the Saudi "counter offensive." Because the U.S. was defenseless against such attacks, the U.S. capitulated. Also, it's likely that the secret relationship between Bush Sr. and Hussein would have been revealed by the Saudis, bringing disgrace to the Bush family.

So that's the explanation. Current conniving is aimed at restoring a stable, ruthless government to Iraq that is a U.S. puppet. This has to be timed with a strong anti-terror system (greatly reducing our civil liberties). If this can be pulled off, we can expect to see a return to the good-old-days of cheap oil. Until the Saudis build an A-Bomb.

Either that, or Colonel Mustard in the library with a knife.

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Grumpy



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fernando_the_First

Quote:
Either that, or Colonel Mustard in the library with a knife.


It makes much more sense than most. This type of "conspiracy" still leaves 911 being the sole results of the planes, as the physics show.

Grumpy Cool

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O dear, taken to drinking and swallowing the pain tablets together eh Grumpy? aAzzAa
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aAzzAa



Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 1140

PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can anyone answer what the physics involved are here:





How did the top begin to fall, whilst nothing below the red line collapsed?
Please explain how the planes caused this.
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Grumpy



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aAzzAa

Quote:
How did the top begin to fall, whilst nothing below the red line collapsed?


How can you say nothing below the red line has collapsed, in the first photo there is no dust below the red line, in the last the area below the red line is completely concealed in dust. You are truly an idiot.

Grumpy Cool

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aAzzAa



Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 1140

PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grumpy wrote:
aAzzAa

Quote:
How did the top begin to fall, whilst nothing below the red line collapsed?


How can you say nothing below the red line has collapsed, in the first photo there is no dust below the red line, in the last the area below the red line is completely concealed in dust. You are truly an idiot.

Grumpy Cool


Sorry to interupt the oral sex you're having with Lojack, but your answer doesn't add up. Yes there is dust around, but notice at the top right, just below the bottom red line. Nothing has fallen there, and yet the top of the building is already collapsing. In the third image you see more dust but this is dispersing outwards because of the collapse from the top. So where is your scientific explanation for this, if the planes are responsible? It seems to me that the point of impact by the plane is doing a grand job still being able to resist the falling structure from above. What is it , about twenty floors falling down from above, and still the floors beneath the plane impact are still standing? One would think it's becuase they had not been exploded yet.

Anyway, don't want to argue this with you, nor Lojack-Off. I'll sit back and watch you intimidate anyone that has the nerve to ask questions about the NIST report.
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Grumpy



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aAzzAa

Quote:
How did the top begin to fall, whilst nothing below the red line collapsed?


A real fire chief, Arthur Scheuerman, Battalion Chief FDNY (Retired), Former Deputy Chief Instructor Nassau County Fire Training Academy and high-rise Fire Safety Director NYC.

The following is an essay on the possible causes of the World Trade Center collapse and possible means to prevent similar occurrences. The essay is based on my experience and knowledge gained in the NYC Fire Dept as I rose through the ranks to Battalion Chief and the Nassau County Fire Departments, to Deputy Chief Instructor, Nassau County Fire Training Academy, and my work as a building Safety Director in numerous high-rise buildings in NYC. It is written for builders, architects, and civil engineers and attempts to give some perspective on fire dynamics relating to building construction. The details are my opinions and are written to stimulate debate and improve the Fire and Building codes and their enforcement.

It has been shown that, at times, at the WTC, the fire resistance of both bar joists and columns were deficient, due to flaking off of sprayed on coverings in certain places. (NY Times, Science Sec. Dec 13, 2001). Removal of a small area of protective insulation from a bar joist would seem more detrimental than removal of a small area from a large column, since temperature would build up faster in the small element. According to Francis Brannigan, the failure of any one element of the truss can cause the failure of the entire truss.� A bar joist is a truss, and the failure of one bar joist can lead to successive failure of adjacent joists due to load transfer. Trusses were commonly used in supermarkets to eliminate columns and provide unobstructed views, so that people could easily see the food items. For a post fire analysis of a supermarket truss roof collapse, that killed six firefighters in 1978, see Ch.20 of Chief Dunn�s book. Until now the fire service has had little experience with fire resistive floor truss construction, but its experience with common exposed roof trusses has been disastrous. According to Chief Dunn, Truss construction is the most dangerous roof system that a firefighter will encounter. A [unprotected] steel bar joist system may collapse after only ten minutes of exposure to fire.(Dunn p125). This is not enough time for the Fire Dept. to get water on the fire even in a low rise building.In fact, successive failure of trusses appears to be the rule rather than the exception. (Brannigan p46).
As in a truss, a fire resistive building without built in redundancy depends on all the critical elements and their connections retaining their fire resistance and thus their integrity during a fire. The WTC exterior box column walls bes9ides being the bearing walls for the floors were shear-walls transmitting lateral wind loads through the membrane floors to each other and to the ground. These exterior walls �together with the floors, formed a torsionally rigid framed tube fixed to the foundations.(Clifton p3). Removal of the floor rigidity by the heat caused sagging, break up of the concrete or collapse of these bar-joists removed much of the buildings lateral bracing.
I surmise that as those floor sections, which were intact after the plane crash and fuel explosion, were weakened by the heat and let down their concrete loads and live loads onto the floors below, a progressive mechanical collapse began in the floors. In conventional fire resistive, steel frame construction the spans are shorter and beams and columns rigidly restrained vertically, horizontally and diagonally, by strong connections and masonry walls built between columns. A progressive collapse due to impact loads is less likely since the masonry walls and strong connections between columns and girders can redistribute the loads. A floor collapse in a conventional steel-framed building would have been localized since the area between girders would be small. On the other hand when huge spans are achieved by�trusses or space frames, collapse can be sudden, general and tragic. (Brannigan p215).
More likely, as the architect Mr. Malott points out in Why the World Trade Center Collapsed�, Nov./Dec issue of Designer Builder magazine, the bar joists themselves pulling with them the exterior walls and the core columns started the collapse. Steel (floor) members which sag due to fire will try to carry their loads as suspension members. This causes large horizontal forces; if they are transmitted to the fire wall, it can be destroyed.(Brannigan p253) It seems likely that such floor sagging in the Southeast corner of Tower 2 affected the corner core columns and/or corner perimeter columns causing the initial list to the Southeast just before the rapid, avalanche collapse of the 110 story structure.

In Tower 1 the bulging ripple going down the outside of the skin in advance of the collapsing floors (Malott p12) could have, in fact, been caused by floors collapsing ahead of the column failure. If it was a flat pancake collapse of the floors, the increasing dynamic weight of the concrete laden floors along with their live loads, hitting each level could easily break the connections to the columns or spandrels on each floor. The tips of the joist ends sliding down the interior face of the columns could have caused the bulging ripple; or this moving bulge could have been caused by the air pressure from the bellows effect as the collapsing floors compressed the air which pushed on and bowed out the windows and the aluminum skin covering the columns.

This type of flat floor collapse reminds me of bathroom floor failures in old six story apartment buildings. These localized, progressive collapses were so common, in the Bronx that we would try to stay out of bathrooms during apartment fires. One firefighter reported riding down such a bathroom floor collapse and said it felt like being in an elevator which momentarily stopped at each floor, as each bathroom floor hit the one below and broke the joists. Amazingly he stepped out unhurt at the ground floor. The reason for these failures was the weight of the heavy fixtures, mortar bed and tile floors, and fire attacking the dry rot in the wood joist ends. This wood rot was caused by constant water spills wetting the joists. (For more details on this type of collapse see Dunn p86).

In Tower 1 it appears the top floor or floors began failing first possibly because the top floors were receiving most of the super heated gasses rising up the damaged elevator and stair shafts and other vertical openings such as un-fire-stopped pipe or wire runs, or air conditioning shafts. These fire gasses could have accumulated and heated the entire upper ceiling area or truss voids of one floor, or several floors, starting a softening and sagging of the joists. Or, more likely, after filling the upper floors (mushrooming) these heated gasses could have exploded, and triggered the initial floor collapse. This happens at times in unventilated void spaces at serious fires. A third possibility as to a contributing cause for the Tower 1 collapse is sprinkler system water overloading one or more floors. For instance, if the restaurant on the 107th floor were sprinklered and the heated smoke set off some of the spray heads, after a time, the water weight buildup over a large floor area could exacerbate the sequential bar-joist failure. Water would accumulate in the depression in the sagging floors caused by the bar joists softening, thus hastening the collapse. From the video footage this collapse appeared to occur (begin) uniformly around the building (at or near the top of thebuilding) and spread rapidly down to the floor above the impact region. That region than pancaked (Clifton, pCool.

The fact that the collapse began, apparently simultaneously, around the entire upper floor outer ring and possibly the inner core of Tower 1 rather suggests an explosion or rapid combustion of flammable gasses, such as carbon monoxide or vaporized jet fuel, over-pressuring the area.
Incomplete combustion, due to lack of oxygen, in the main body of fire in addition to producing these flammable gasses, may have been may have been another reason the fire temperatures in general not being any greater than an average fire. According to Charles G. Clifton The observed fire behavior points to temperatures in the building not being particularly severe say no more than about 600 to 700 Deg. C. Possible reasons for this may involve the coating of combustible material in dust from pulverized concrete and wall linings (gypsum) and the volatility of the aviation fuel leading to large amounts of fuel being pyrolised but not burnt in the interior of the building.(CliftonElaboration p6). Pyrolysis involves thermal decomposition in the absence of oxygen. In a large area fire the high heat is distilling off (generating) more flammable gasses from combustibles than can be burned, since the available air is being quickly used up in combustion. These flammable vapors and gasses, produced by heat but unburned, can migrate to remote spaces due to rising convection currents, where if they attain the right mixture with air and are hot enough, will explode. A room or area requires only 25 percent of its space to contain the explosive mixture for the entire area to explode.(Dunn, WNYF p9). This is one of the reasons fire-buildings are promptly ventilated form upper areas by the Fire Dept. The overpressure produced by rapid combustion can vary from low pressure as in a flashover to severe as in a backdraft. The postulated overpressure in Tower 1s upper floors and/or bar joist voids may have been strong enough to start the collapse but not strong enough to be noticed on the outside of the building. If you carefully observe the film of the collapse you can, however, notice a sudden small loom up of black smoke from the top floor areas just before the avalanche collapse began.
Quote:


http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/WTC/Fire.html

Grumpy

Cool

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O dear, taken to drinking and swallowing the pain tablets together eh Grumpy? aAzzAa
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puffdaddy



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


an honest-to-god scientist Knows everything
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Hombre



Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 967

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah Puff that's classic. Laughing

thks,

Hombre
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