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Witheld/Destroyed Evidence
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Fintan
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 8217

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Witheld/Destroyed Evidence Reply with quote

Reply to this topic with evidence and discussion about the
destruction or withholding of evidence relating to 9/11.


For example (macauleym): FAA Tapes, black boxes, etc.

-------------------
S U M M A R Y
-------------------

A summary of the thread will be updated here as evidence
is presented in this topic.
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Fintan
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:06 pm    Post subject: Families Questions to the 9/11 Commission Reply with quote

One source of witheld information is the unanswered questions posed by
the Family Steering Committee to the 9/11 Independent Commission:

Quote:
FSC Questions to the 9/11 Commission
http://www.justicefor911.org/Appendix4_FSCQuestionRatings_111904.php

Questions with a tick in column 3 are unanswered

Summary of Questions
http://911independentcommission.org/questions.html
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macauleym



Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:32 pm    Post subject: FAA cassette tape destroyed Reply with quote

Quoted below in full are three articles, one from the New York Times and two from the Washington Post, describing a report released by the the Transportation Department's Inspector General on May 6, 2004, which describes the creation and subsequent (several months later) destruction of an approximately one-hour cassette tape recording of statements by six FAA controllers at a meeting around 11:40am on 9/11/01, at which approximately 16 people were present. According to the report, it seems that nobody listened to the tape before it was destroyed. The second Washington Post article below identifies two of the FAA managers involved: the one who decided to record the tape (Mike McCormick) and the one who later destroyed it (Kevin Delaney). Delaney (assuming he was identified correctly by the WP writer's "source familiar with the investigation") absurdly said that "the tape was not meant for anyone to hear," and declined the request of one of the six controllers "to listen to the tape in preparing her written statement."

The report itself (24 pages) is available in PDF here (or HTML version from Google here). (It's very long and redundant, so I've decided against copying it here. But it contains many details about the tape and the subsequent investigation.)

Whether anything valuable was lost, or was deliberately covered up, when the tape was destroyed, is anyone's guess. The report makes it seem like there was probably nothing valuable lost -- and gives plausible reasons for concluding this -- but admits that it is impossible to know for sure. Delaney was apparently disciplined (20-day suspesion without pay) as a result of the investigation reported on by the DOT Inspector General.

Two other articles are perhaps worth mentioning and linking to. One, yet another article on the DOT/IG report, from Air Safety Week, May 17, 2004. Two, a more recent New York Daily News article (January 20, 2006), reporting that Kevin Delaney was fired (along with 11 other controllers) in August 2005, got his job back in December 2005 (after the controllers "took the case to arbitration and won reinstatement"), but after "managers continued to create a hostile work environment", he decided to resign (January 2006).

Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/national/06CND-TAPE.html (requires free registration/login)
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/9/4392
The New York Times
May 6, 2004
F.A.A. Official Scrapped Tape of 9/11 Controllers' Statements
By MATTHEW L. WALD

WASHINGTON, May 6 — At least six air traffic controllers who dealt with two of the hijacked airliners on Sept. 11, 2001, made a tape recording that same day describing the events, but the tape was destroyed by a supervisor without anyone making a transcript or even listening to it, the Transportation Department said in a report today.

The taping began before noon on Sept. 11 at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center, in Ronkonkoma, on Long Island, where about 16 people met in a basement conference room known as "the Bat Cave" and passed around a microphone, each recalling his or her version of the events a few hours earlier.

But officials at the center never told higher-ups of the tape's existence, and it was later destroyed by an F.A.A. official described in the report as a quality-assurance manager there. That manager crushed the cassette in his hand, shredded the tape and dropped the pieces into different trash cans around the building, according to a report made public today by the inspector general of the Transportation Department.

The tape had been made under an agreement with the union that it would be destroyed after it was superseded by written statements from the controllers, according to the inspector general's report. But the quality-assurance manager asserted that making the tape had itself been a violation of accident procedures at the Federal Aviation Administration, the report said.

The inspector general, Kenneth M. Mead, said that the officials' keeping the existence of the tape a secret and the decision by one to destroy it had not served "the interests of the F.A.A., the department or the public" and could foster suspicions among the public.

Mr. Mead had been asked by Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican who is chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, to look into how well the aviation agency had cooperated with what is widely known as the 9/11 commission, a bipartisan, independent panel investigating the terror attacks.

On the tape, the controllers, some of whom had spoken by radio to people on the planes and some who had tracked the aircraft on radar, gave statements of 5 to 10 minutes each, according to the report.

The tape's value was not clear, Mr. Mead said, because no one was sure what was on it, although the written statements given later by five of the controllers were broadly consistent with "sketchy" notes taken at the time by people in the Bat Cave. (The sixth controller who spoke on the tape did not give a written statement, apparently because that controller had not spoken to either of the planes or observed it on radar.)

One of the central questions about the events of that morning is how the F.A.A. responded to emerging clues that four planes had been hijacked. A tape made within hours of the events, as well as written statements given later, could help establish that.

A spokesman for the 9/11 commission, Al Felzenberg, said that Mr. Mead's report was "meticulous" and "came through the efforts of a very conscientious senator." He said the commission would not comment now on the content of the report but that it "does speak to some of the issues we're interested in."

The tape was made because the manager of the center believed that the standard post-crash procedure would be too slow for an event of the magnitude of 9/11. After an accident or other significant incident, according to officials of the union and the F.A.A., the controllers involved are relieved of duty and often go home; eventually they review the radar tapes and voice transmissions and give a written statement of what they had seen, heard and done.

People in the Ronkonkoma center at midday on Sept. 11 concluded that that procedure would take many hours, and that the controllers' shift was ending and after a traumatic morning, they wanted to go home.

The center manager's idea was to have the tape available overnight, in case the F.B.I. wanted something before the controllers returned to work the next day, according to people involved.

"It was never meant as a permanent record," said Mark DiPalmo, the president of the local chapter of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, who made the deal with the center manager.

He said the session was informal, and that sometimes more than one person at a time was speaking. "We sat everyone in a room, went around the room, said, `What do you remember?" Mr. DiPalmo said in an interview.

Mr. Mead's report said that it was conceivable that without that deal, the tape would not have been made at all.

The quality-assurance manager told investigators that he had destroyed the tape because he thought making it was contrary to F.A.A. policy, which calls for written statements, and because he felt that the controllers "were not in the correct frame of mind to have properly consented to the taping" because of the stress of the day, Mr. Mead reported.

Neither the center manager nor the quality-assurance manager disclosed the tape's existence to their superiors at the F.A.A. region that covers New York, nor to the agency's Washington headquarters, according to the report, which identified none of the officials or controllers by name.

Other tapes were preserved, including conversations on the radio frequencies used by the planes that day, and the radar tapes. In addition, the controllers later made written statements to the F.A.A., per standard procedure, and in this case, to the F.B.I. as well.

The quality-assurance manager destroyed the tape between December 2001 and February, 2002. By that time, he and the center manager had received an e-mail message sent by the F.A.A. instructing officials to safeguard all records and adding, "If a question arises whether or not you should retain data, RETAIN IT."

The inspector general attributed the tape's destruction to "poor judgment."

"The destruction of evidence in the government's possession, in this case an audiotape particularly during times of a national crisis, has the effect of fostering an appearance that information is being withheld from the public," the inspector general's report said. "We do not ascribe motivations to the managers in this case of attempting to cover up, and we have no indication that there was anything on the tape that would lead anyone to conclude that they had something to hide or that the controllers did not carry out their duties."

The inspector general also noted that the official who destroyed the tape had no regrets or second thoughts: "The quality-assurance manager told us that if presented with similar circumstances, he would again take the same course of action."

Mr. Mead wrote that this attitude was "especially troubling" and that supervisors should take "appropriate administrative action."

Although the matter had been referred to the Justice Department, the Mead report added, prosecutors said they had found no basis for criminal charges.

An F.A.A. spokesman, Greg Martin, said that his agency had cooperated with the 9/11 commission and that that was how the tape's existence had become known at the agency's headquarters.

"We believe it would not have added in any way to the information contained in all of the other materials that have already been provided to the investigators and the members of the 9/11 commission," he said.

Nonetheless, Mr. Martin said that "we have taken appropriate disciplinary action" against the quality-assurance manager. For privacy reasons, he said, he could not say what those actions were or identify any of the employees involved.


Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A6632-2004May6
FAA Managers Destroyed 9/11 Tape
Recording Contained Accounts of Communications With Hijacked Planes

By Sara Kehaulani Goo
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 6, 2004; 6:16 PM

Six air traffic controllers provided accounts of their communications with hijacked planes on Sept. 11, 2001, on a tape recording that was later destroyed by Federal Aviation Administration managers, according to a government investigative report issued today.

It is unclear what information was on the tape because no one ever listened to, transcribed or duplicated it, the report by the Department of Transportation inspector general said.

The report concluded that the FAA generally cooperated with the independent panel investigating the terrorist attacks by providing documents about its activities on Sept. 11, but the actions of two FAA managers "did not, in our view, serve the interests of the FAA, the Department [of Transportation] or the public."

The report was conducted at the request of Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) after the panel investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, officially known as the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, complained that the FAA had been less than forthcoming in turning over documents and issued a subpoena to the agency for more information.

The FAA said it was cooperating fully with the 9/11 panel. The agency said it took disciplinary action against the employee who destroyed the tape but declined to elaborate on what kind of action they took. [Earlier, an FAA official incorrectly stated that the agency took action against two employees in the case.]

"We believe the audiotape in question appears to be consistent with written statements and other materials provided to FBI investigators and would not have added in any significant way to the information contained in what has already been provided to investigators and members of the 9/11 commission," said FAA spokesman Greg Martin.

Hours after the hijacked planes flew into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon and a Pennsylvania field, an FAA manager at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center gathered six controllers who communicated or tracked two of the hijacked planes and recorded in a one-hour interview their personal accounts of what occurred, the report stated.

The manager, who is not named in the report, said that his intentions were to provide quick information to federal officials investigating the attack before the air traffic controllers involved took sick leave for the stress of their experiences, as is common practice.

According to the report, a second manager at the New York center promised a union official representing the controllers that he would "get rid of" the tape after controllers used it to provide written statements to federal officials about the events of the day.

Instead, the second manager said he destroyed the tape between December 2001 and January 2002 by crushing the tape with his hand, cutting it into small pieces and depositing the pieces into trash cans around the building, the report said.

The tape's existence was never made known to federal officials investigating the attack, nor to FAA officials in Washington. Staff members of the 9/11 panel found out about the tape during interviews with some controllers who participated in the recording.

One controller said she asked to listen to the tape in order to prepare her written account of her experience, but one of the managers denied her request.

The New York managers acknowledged that they received an e-mail from FAA officials instructing them to retain all materials related to the Sept. 11 attacks. "If a question arises whether or not you should retain the data, RETAIN IT," the report quoted the e-mail as saying.

But the managers decided not to include the tape in a November 2001 "Formal Accident Package" report the office prepared because one manager said he did not want to break his word to the union official and he did not think the tape should ever have been made.

The inspector general concluded today that the managers' actions resulted in the loss of potential evidence that would allow the 9/11 commission to compare controllers' recollection of the events immediately after the attacks with the written statements prepared three weeks later.

"The destruction of evidence in the Government's possession, in this case an audiotape -- particularly during times of national crisis -- has the effect of fostering an appearance that information is being withheld from the public."

2004 The Washington Post Company


Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A6892-2004May6
Controllers' 9/11 Tape Destroyed, Report Says

By Sara Kehaulani Goo
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 7, 2004; Page A02

Six air traffic controllers provided accounts of their communications with hijacked planes on Sept. 11, 2001, on a tape recording that was later destroyed by a Federal Aviation Administration manager, according to a government investigative report issued yesterday.

It is unclear what was on the tape, but its destruction did little to dispel the appearance that government officials withheld evidence, the report by the Department of Transportation inspector general said.

The report found that an FAA manager tape-recorded an hour-long interview with the controllers just hours after the hijacked aircraft crashed into the World Trade Center towers, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania. His intention was to provide the information quickly to the FBI. But months after the recording, the tape was never turned over to the FBI and another FAA manager decided on his own to destroy the tape, crushing it with his hand, cutting it into small pieces and depositing the pieces into several trash cans, the report said.

The existence of the tape and its destruction were revealed in a report that initially was to find whether the FAA had fully cooperated with an independent panel investigating the terrorist attacks after the panel complained last fall that it needed more information from the agency. Inspector General Kenneth M. Mead found that the FAA never intentionally withheld information, but he condemned the managers' actions and said they were required to keep such evidence for five years.

The report said investigators were told that the tape was never listened to, copied or transcribed.

"The destruction of evidence in the Government's possession, in this case an audiotape -- particularly during times of national crisis -- has the effect of fostering an appearance that information is being withheld from the public," the report says. "We do not ascribe motivations to the managers in this case of attempting to cover-up, and we have no indication there was anything on the tape that would lead anyone to conclude that they had something to hide or that the controllers did not properly carry out their duties on September 11. The actions of these managers . . . nonetheless, do little to dispel such appearances."

The FAA yesterday said it had taken disciplinary action against the employee who destroyed the tape. That manager, identified by a source familiar with the investigation as Kevin Delaney, was last week given a 20-day suspension without pay. Delaney appealed that decision, the source said, confirming a report last night by Newsday. The employee who recorded the tape, Mike McCormick, was not subject to a disciplinary procedure and is in Iraq for the FAA, helping to set up an air traffic control system, the source added.

The FAA said it has provided thousands of documents to government investigators and the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, known as the 9/11 commission.

"We believe the audiotape in question appears to be consistent with written statements and other materials provided to FBI investigators and would not have added in any significant way to the information contained in what has already been provided to investigators and members of the 9/11 commission," said FAA spokesman Greg Martin.

The 9/11 commission does not allege that FAA employees were attempting to cover up information related to the terrorist attacks. A spokesman for the commission yesterday said that it has received all information it sought from the FAA and that it interviewed controllers involved with the tape.

Evidence in the report and from the air traffic controllers union suggests that the decisions to make the recording and later to destroy it were meant to conform to traditional protocols following a plane crash. The actions also were aimed at protecting controllers who were under excessive stress and emotion, according to union officials representing the controllers.

According to the report, an FAA manager at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center in Ronkonkoma recorded 10-minute interviews with six controllers who communicated with or tracked two of the hijacked planes.

According to union officials representing air traffic controllers, it is almost unheard of to tape-record an air traffic controller's account of an accident. The normal procedure is for controllers to provide written statements after reviewing radar and other data. A union official representing the New York controllers agreed to the tape recording on Sept. 11 because the union wanted to help law enforcement officials, but only on the condition that the tape was to be a "temporary" document, a union official said.

Ruth E. Marlin, executive vice president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, said she could not speak to the question of why the union official involved in the incident wanted the tape to be "temporary." "If it were me, my concern would be that if tapes were saved permanently, they might be subject to FOIA [Freedom of Information Act] request and then controllers would be subject to hearing their own voices recounted on television over and over again," Marlin said, adding that any accident can feel personal and emotional for controllers.

According to the report, a second manager at the New York center promised a union official representing the controllers that he would "get rid of" the tape after controllers used it to provide written statements to federal officials about the events of the day. The second manager said he destroyed the tape between December 2001 and January 2002.

The tape's existence was never made known to federal officials investigating the attack or FAA officials in Washington. Staff members of the 9/11 panel found out about the tape during interviews with some controllers who participated in the recording.

Staff writer Dan Eggen contributed to this report.

2004 The Washington Post Company
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StillDiggin



Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this is TOO obvious, but does anyone else besides me see a connection between these 2 links? Great Kills Park? Who the hell came up with that name?

http://disaster.pandj.com/World%20Trade%20Center%20Forensic%20Recovery.pdf

http://wcbstv.com/local/local_story_264211619.html%3Chttp://wcbstv.com/local/local_story_264211619.html
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elbowdeep



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting connection, possibly... what is with that name "Great Kills", and in the other document refers to "Fresh Kills", renamed to "Staten Island Landfill". Why the difference in names between the two documents?
Are these all referring to the same dump/area, or different?

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Continuity



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StillDiggin asked:
Quote:
Great Kills Park? Who the hell came up with that name?

I believe that 'kills' is a Dutch word that means 'fresh water', or something to that effect...

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StillDiggin



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to mapquest, Great Kills Park looks to be about 3 miles WSW of Fresh Kills Park.

The fact that there are "80 hot spots" with increased radium levels in the area seems likely to me, considering we're talking about 1.5 million tons of debris being "processed" in the area.

I saw that recent story a couple of days ago on one of these damned sites, and when I was trying to find out where to post my latest thought in the "evidence archive" or whatever, I stumbled across the Staten Island Landfill story. I still can't find the original story I saw... I need to check my I.E. history - thought I saw a map of the hot spots too.

Either that landfill story is obscure knowledge and I just got lucky seeing it so close to reading the recent story, or the whole thing is a plant. That whole "preparing for a dirty bomb" thing doesn't pass my sniff test either. That could just be the excuse for planting the seed. See the way you guys have me thinking now?

Now if I could just remember what the hell I was trying to post before I came across this Staten Island thing, things would be just great...
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StillDiggin



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like I followed the link from st911.org to get the recent story. Now why would they post that? The more I think about it, the more I think this is disiformation. Surely local residents would remember all the activity going on back then. Sounds too damn convenient to be real evidence.

Fool me once, shame on me... fool me again.... I won't get fooled again.

Either I was mistaken about seeing a map, or they pulled it. I think I was just mistaken.
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StillDiggin



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two more links to the same story by different news media, but all three came from the same source (st911.org - inside yellow highlighted box). Looks like they're trying to push it hard.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/454825p-382701c.html
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usnucl0922,0,5644440.story

Still no sign of a map, dammit!
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heiho1



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if this is the best spot for this but there is an ongoing "recovery" of more WTC evidence. Mayor Bloomberg is suddenly quite determined that all of it must be found.

http://fe.pennnet.com/news/display_news_story.cfm?Section=WireNews&Category=HOME&NewsID=140398

Quote:

NYC mayor: This time, WTC recovery effort will be more thorough
Daily News, New York (October 30, 2006)

NEW YORK - Mayor Michael Bloomberg conceded Monday that things might have "slipped through the cracks" in the Ground Zero recovery effort - after the New York Daily News revealed a new search wasn't launched when Sept. 11 debris was found in a manhole in 2002.

"If you go back and look, there were so many things going on and the recovery effort was so big, it's very possible that something slipped through the cracks," Bloomberg said.

The News reported Monday that the city never opened a more thorough search of the World Trade Center site after utility workers found a Secret Service bullet-proof vest inside a manhole a block from Ground Zero in October 2002.

But this time, Bloomberg vowed, things will be different.

"We think it will take a year to go through every single place that was for reasons, good or bad, accidental or deliberate, missed the last time," he said. "We will go through every place so that the families can be assured, to the extent humanly possibly, we've looked every place as carefully as we possibly could."

On Oct. 19, a Consolidated Edison crew found more than 200 human bone fragments and a number of personal effects in a manhole about 300 feet from the spot where the vest was found.

Last week, the city announced a full-scale search in lower Manhattan involving every manhole from Barclay to Albany streets and from Broadway to west of the World Financial Center.

A service road and a parking lot will be dug up, the interiors of three buildings will be searched, as will the roofs of the Millenium Hotel and the One Liberty Plaza office tower.

The renewed search follows pressure from the families of the 1,150 Sept. 11 victims whose remains have never been found.

Monday night, community residents confronted government officials about the search inside one Ground Zero building: Fiterman Hall, a City University of New York building that is still clogged with toxic World Trade Center debris from the day of the attacks.

Residents and local environmental and worker-safety groups have demanded "a full, open public process" as cleanup and ultimately demolition of Fiterman begins in the coming weeks.

Officials revealed that the city medical examiner is expected to begin searching for human remains inside Fiterman Hall by mid-November.


Of particular interest is that Secret Service bulletproof jacket found underground one block from the WTC. Any speculation on how the jacket got so far? Seems improbable that it was blown laterally one block underground.
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Continuity



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Of particular interest is that Secret Service bulletproof jacket found underground one block from the WTC. Any speculation on how the jacket got so far? Seems improbable that it was blown laterally one block underground.

I get the unshakeable feeling that there was allsorts of fascinating things going on in the sewer system, under manholes and in utility pits/conduits around 9/11. Good question about the SS vest - I mean a normal police vest would be less remarkable, but seeing as how the SS is such a small, specialised unit, what the hell was an SS guy doing under Ground Zero?

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Rumpl4skn



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can almost guarantee there are copies (most likely digitized) of those tapes somewhere, and for many reasons. I also would guarantee that most of us will be dead before they surface.
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