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The Battle for Europe: Greece, now Spain
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Fintan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

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stillsearchingtruth



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is bullshit in my opinion, allowing a week of panic to set in before the referendum will help sway a lot of people back to their captives. As for giving the people their chance to be heard, again what utter contrived steaming pile of horse shit. The mandate was given to the government by the people their reason s for electing were self evident.
I have read that asshole tsipras was offering to agree on terms of adding vat to food, medicine, hotels, you name it. Even agreeing to screwing the poorest. Fuck him and his stooges and so it seems like this is nothing more than a soap opera only the extras are not acting
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Fintan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
stillsearchingtruth:
I have read that asshole tsipras was offering to agree....


Laughing And where did you read that, exactly?

Ah yes. You read it in the mainstream media. Laughing Laughing

Where the "Regime Change" agenda is rolling.

So, thank fuck you are now here!!

This is called the NEXT LEVEL.

Not the Knee Jerk Level?!

So, skipping past the knee - if the deal was such a frikkin' sellout.....

Why didn't the BANKSTERS TAKE IT? Laughing Laughing Laughing

Answers on a postcard.

Y'see.... It's War - and ALL is propaganda.

From the good guys and the bad guys.

That's why I'm here.

I've written:

Quote:
I will just say this.
Default within the Euro is like freedom within the prison. Wink

29 Jun 2015 07:57 pm Post subject:

No BS from Hudson, but acute awareness of the strategic and tactical
landscape. Read the article and then you'll appreciate how Varoufakis'
game theory is fronted by Tsipras. Playing a blinder so far.

Today's Tsipras disarming tactic: 'the vote is not about euro exit.'
Yep. In the same way that Xmas is good news for turkeys. <wink>


Lol.

Well Today's Tsipras disarming tactic: 'We'll deal for simple EFSF/ESM Funding.'

Well, he could offer anything on the basis of EFSF/ESM funding.

And be sure it would never be accepted.

Because EFSF/ESM funding is a de facto debt write down.

So, what has been achieved by these careful psywar games is that the
Varoufakis/Tsipras duo have buried the Banksters' meme that
a NO vote meant automatically exiting from the Euro zone
- No more to discuss.

Today's Bankster position is: "We won't discuss - until after the Vote!"

Taipras has had to neutralize the pro-European sentiment in Greece.

He has done so. That's what they call political skills.

The Game is : MAXIMIZE THE NO VOTE.

GAME ON!

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stillsearchingtruth



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you are saying that is categorically a lie?

As for the why.....perhaps because they are cold, ruthless, callous psychopathic fucks who are not interested in any concessions?

As for your quip, if this indeed is a lie, given the fact that it is being widely reported, where is the evidence to retort that statement? Also since politicians lie, cheat and steal and that's at the lighter end of the spectrum, then a knee jerk reaction is usually going to hit the target when it comes to the motives of a politician.

I remain deeply skeptical until there is tangible evidence to the contrary and his actions are not passing by my radar. I may be wrong, but how many times have we watched this same song and dance from a politician?

Who the fuck knows is the answer and that's the point.
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Southpark Fan



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Commies are back! Break open the Cold War rhetoric!

"In my party the CDU/CSU there would be a lot of colleagues who would vote 'no' if Varoufakis and Tsipras are asking. For sure. Because there is simply no trust any more. They say, I am not going to give taxpayers' money to Greece without a reliable partner," he said. Referring to Syriza, he added: "We need a reliable partner who wants to do the job."

'Reliable partner' meaning 'compliant yes-men for the democracy-hating, debt-controlling Western world order'.

The EU's plan is to back a "yes" vote strongly by posing it as an in/out question on membership of the euro rather than austerity measures and then, in the event of a victory, to oust Syriza after the expected resignation of Mr Tsipras. "We will do everything to get a 'yes'. Then we will need a new government, then we have to implement measures," he said.

Spoken like a true Western 'democrat'. 'We' decide who rules, not the people.


David vs Goliath Love your suit Angela! It brings out the colour in your eye.

See how this has little to do with finances and everything to do with politics?

Greece 'voted the wrong way' when it democratically-elected the Syriza party into power in January.

Greece must therefore be 'course-corrected' via external financial warfare.

Activate hidden stay behind army - Roger That!

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Fintan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
stillsearchingtruth:
So you are saying that is categorically a lie?

I'm saying read my post above and then research EFSF/ESM
to understand how that can be a backdoor debt write down.

Quote:
Southpark Fan:
'Reliable partner' meaning 'compliant yes-men for the
democracy-hating, debt-controlling Western world order'.

Pretty much sums it up.

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Fintan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMF CAVES IN AS GREEK DEBT VOTE LOOMS
IMF hurries to save its reputation ahead of Greek Vote.
Reversal of public position sees IMF echo SYRIZA policies..


I will post more analysis as the evening progresses,
but for now simply read the Guardian article below.

Shown in full for educational and research purposes.

(I think the Guardian is being used to re-position the IMF
MOST of the media are skimping the detail of the new
IMF position - or just spinning it as: 'IMF warns Greece')

I've been writing about how well Syriza have handled the PR battle.
So much so, that the IMF has had to abort its stance and revert back
to its friendlier 'good cop' face... and then some! Laughing

"Greece should have a 20-year grace period" - IMF

Now you're talking sense you goons. But only Greece, Dammit'??!
People Everywhere Should Get 90-Years Grace From Thieves!!

Quote:


IMF says Greece needs extra
€60bn in funds and debt relief


International lender issues strong message to Europe
by warning that Athens’ debts are unsustainable and
it needs 20-year grace period on debt repayments


The International Monetary Fund has electrified the referendum debate in
Greece after it conceded that the crisis-ridden country needs up to €60bn
(£42bn) of extra funds over the next three years and large-scale debt
relief to create “a breathing space” and stabilise the economy.


With days to go before Sunday’s knife-edge referendum that the country’s creditors have cast as a vote on whether it wants to keep the euro, the IMF revealed a deep split with Europe as it warned that Greece’s debts were “unsustainable”.

Fund officials said they would not be prepared to put a proposal for a third Greek bailout to the Washington-based organisation’s board unless it included both a commitment to economic reform and debt relief.

According to the IMF, Greece should have a 20-year grace period before making any debt repayments and final payments should not take place until 2055. It would need €10bn to get through the next few months and a further €50bn after that.

The IMF’s analysis will be seized upon by Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras, who has been insisting he will only agree to tough new austerity measures if Greece is granted debt relief.

Tsipras is campaigning for a no vote in the referendum on Sunday, which is officially on whether to accept a tough earlier bailout offer, to impress on EU negotiators that spiralling poverty and a collapse in everyday business activity across Greece has meant further austerity should be ruled out of any new rescue package.


Finance minister Yanis Varoufakis pledged to resign if his country votes yes to the plan proposed by the EU, the European Central Bank and what appears to be an increasingly reluctant IMF.

Varoufakis, the academic-turned-politician who has riled his eurozone counterparts, said he would not remain finance minister on Monday if Greece voted yes.

He said he would rather “cut off his arm” than accept another austerity bailout without any debt relief for Greece, adding that he was “quite confident” the Greek people would back the government’s call for a no vote.



The government’s stance was attacked by former prime minister Costas Karamanlis who said a no vote would amount to a “choice for withdrawal from the heart of Europe”.

His statement was echoed by another former prime minister Antonis Samaras who said going back to the drachma would kill the Greek economy.

The president of the European parliament, Martin Schulz, reflecting the deep anger felt in Brussels at the erratic negotiating tactics adopted by Tsipras and Varoufakis, said Greeks voters should blame Tsipras for bringing the country to its knees.

Schulz said: “New elections would be necessary if the Greek people vote for the reform programme and thus for remaining in the eurozone and Tsipras, as a logical consequence, resigns.”

In an outburst that was extraordinary coming from the most senior official in the EU parliament, he argued that the radical left Syriza government should be replaced by a technocratic administration.

“If this transitional government reaches a reasonable agreement with the creditors, then Syriza’s time would be over,” he said. “Then Greece has another chance.”

But the intervention by the IMF will undermine EU leaders who argue Greece must submit to a fresh round of austerity measures to release funds for debt repayments.

In a strong message to Brussels, the IMF said they would need to find extra money for Greece following the marked deterioration in the state of the economy since Tsipras’s Syriza coalition took over at the start of the year.

“Very significant changes in policies and in the outlook since early this year have resulted in a substantial increase in financing needs. Altogether, under the package proposed by the institutions to the Greek authorities, these needs are projected to reach about €50bn from October 2015 to the end of 2018, requiring new European money of at least €36bn over the three-year period.”

The Fund said Greece’s financing needs had risen since it completed its study in late June, with paralysis in the economy following the imposition of capital controls last weekend.

Greece was already back in recession even before the recent deepening of the crisis and looks unlikely to meet the IMF’s forecast of 0% growth this year. The Fund has been consistently over-optimistic about Greece’s economic prospects, but officials said that if the economy did contract in 2015, it would make up the lost ground in the future.

Nick Kounis, economist at ABN Amro, said: “The IMF’s report on Greek debt makes grim reading but its growth assumptions are too optimistic, hence debt projections are too low.”

The IMF said that even if Greece is offered generous terms, it is still likely to require a reduction in debt of around 30% of national income to bring it down to 117% of GDP, the uppermost limit of what the Fund considered sustainable at the time of the second Greek bailout in the autumn of 2012.

“Even with concessional financing through 2018, debt would remain very high for decades and highly vulnerable to shocks. Assuming official (concessional) financing through end–2018, the debt-to-GDP ratio is projected at about 150% in 2020, and close to 140% in 2022.

“Using the thresholds agreed in November 2012, a haircut that yields a reduction in debt of over 30% of GDP would be required to meet the November 2012 debt targets.”

The IMF added that if growth was lower than expected or if the Greek government failed to meet targets for running a surplus on its budget excluding interest payments, there would be “significant increases in debt and gross financing needs”.

The IMF said that is was releasing its preliminary draft debt sustainability analysis as a result of the leaks of documents reported in the Guardian earlier this week.

Significantly, it said its assessment had “not been agreed with the other parties in the policy discussions” – an admission that the Fund is at odds with its troika partners, the European commission and the European Central Bank – over the need for debt relief.

The Fund has traditionally viewed debt relief as an integral part of any package to improve the economic prospects of a country seeking help, but it has met resistance from European governments fearful that the cost would have to be met by their own taxpayers.

In response to criticism that the IMF has failed to tackle intransigence in European capitals against a further debt write-off, a senior IMF official said: “We are asking the Greeks to do very difficult things. We are also asking the Europeans to do something very difficult.

The extension of maturities [by the EU] on Greek debt would be a dramatic move.

He said that while “it was a fact that Europe has already provided considerable debt relief in GDP terms” to Greece, the current dire situation meant they needed to do more.

The official said he had refused to put forward plans for a further bailout of Greece to the IMF board without a comprehensive deal that included debt relief.

“We cannot go to our board with this report unless we have a credible programme that is sustainable and with a policy from the EU on debt relief. We want a comprehensive solution and cannot go to the IMF board without it.


http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/02/imf-greece-needs-extra-50bn-euros

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stillsearchingtruth



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay will do
The other that I remarked on was the wtf reaction to having a referendum and even rt is now reporting that the polls show a yes is more likely.
That is almost entirely predictable given that a week of no banks, restrictions on withdrawals will weaken resistance. This as far as I am concerned is still bullshit. Syriza already had a mandate and if they lose Yanis and Tsipras will leave and then surely the parasitical turds then hold all the cards?
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Fintan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis just re-blogged
a July 1st article by James K. Galbraith entitled:

"Only the No Can Save the Euro"

The two most important sentences in that article are below in quotes.

Yanis wants you to know <wink> Wink

Quote:



ONLY THE NO CAN SAVE THE EURO

"The threat to expel Greece is an obvious bluff. There is no legal way
to eject Greece from the Eurozone or the EU." - James K. Galbraith


Alexis Tsipras has only been on the international stage for a few months.
He is brash, but charming. It would be easy for those as sheltered as
Europe’s present leaders to fail to figure him out—to fail to realize that
like Varoufakis, Tsipras meant what he said.

READ MORE:

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/03/only-the-no-can-save-the-euro-by-james-k-galbraith/


Quote:
rt is now reporting that the polls show a yes is more likely.


That poll has now been debunked.
The polling firm have disowned it.

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Last edited by Fintan on Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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stillsearchingtruth



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, although by the same token the bookmakers are heavily favouring a yes vote too.
I am not saying the bookies are always right in their pricing but mostly when it comes to politics they get it right.
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Plato



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought this was pretty good;

http://www.theautomaticearth.com/2015/07/the-troika-turns-europe-into-a-warzone/

Quote:

The Troika Turns Europe Into A Warzone


So now they do it. Now the IMF comes out with a report that says Greece needs hefty debt restructuring.

Mind you, their numbers are still way off the mark, in the end it’s going to be easily double what they claim. Not even a Yanis Varoufakis haircut will do the trick.

But at least they now have preliminary numbers out. The reason why they have is inevitably linked to the press leak I wrote about earlier this week in Troika Documents Say Greece Needs Huge Debt Relief. If that hadn’t come out, I’m betting they would still not have said a thing.

It’s even been clear for many years to the IMF that debt restructuring for Greece is badly needed, but Lagarde and her troops have come to the Athens talks with an agenda, and stonewalled their own researchers.

Which makes you wonder, why would any economist still want to work at the Fund? What is it about your work being completely ignored by your superiors that tickles your fancy? How about your conscience?

Why go through 5 months of ‘negotiations’ with Greece in which you refuse any and all restructuring, only to come up with a paper that says they desperately need restructuring, mere days after they explicitly say they won’t sign any deal that doesn’t include debt restructuring?

By now I have to start channeling my anger about the whole thing. This is getting beyond stupid. And I did too have an ouzo at the foot of the Acropolis, but I’m not sure whether that channels my anger up or down. The whole shebang is just getting too crazy.

For five whole months the troika refuses to talk debt relief, and mere days after the talks break off they come with this? What then was their intention going into the talks? Certainly not to negotiate, that much is clear, or the IMF would have spoken up a long time ago.

At the very least, all Troika negotiators had access to this IMF document prior to submitting the last proposal, which did not include any debt restructuring, and which caused Syriza to say it was unacceptable for that very reason.

Tsipras said yesterday he hadn’t seen it, but the other side of the table had, up to and including all German MPs. This game obviously carries a nasty odor.

Meanwhile, things are getting out of hand here. It’s not just the grandmas who can’t get to their pensions anymore, rumor has it that within days all cash will be gone from banks. And then what? Oh, that’s right, then there’s a referendum. Which will now effectively be held in a warzone.

It’s insane to see even Greeks claim that this is Alexis Tsipras’ fault, but given the unrelenting anti-Syriza ‘reporting’ in western media as well as the utterly corrupted Greek press, we shouldn’t be surprised.

The real picture is completely different. Tsipras and Varoufakis are the vanguard of a last bastion of freedom fighters who refuse to surrender their country to an occupation force called the Troika. Which seeks to conquer Greece outright through financial oppression and media propaganda.

Tsipras and Varoufakis should have everyone’s loud and clear support for what they do. And not just in Greece. But where is the support in Europe? Or the US, for that matter?

There’s no there there. Europeans are completely clueless about what’s happening here in Athens. They can’t see to save their lives that their silence protects and legitimizes a flat out war against a country that is, just like their respective countries, a member of a union that now seeks to obliterate it.

Europeans need to understand that the EU has no qualms about declaring war on one of its own member states. And that it could be theirs next time around. Where people die of hunger or preventable diseases. Or commit suicide. Or flee.

All Europeans on their TV screens can see the line-ups at ATMs, and the fainting grandmas at the banks, the hunger, the despair. How on earth can they see this as somehow normal, and somehow not connected to their own lives?

They’re part of the same political and monetary union. What happens to Greece happens to all of you. That’s the inevitable result of being in a union together.

Don’t Europeans ever think that enough should be enough when it comes to seeing people being forced into submission, in their name? Or are they too fat and thick to understand that it’s in their name that this happens?

The July 5 referendum here in Greece is not about whether the country will remain in the EU, or the eurozone, no matter what any talking head or politician tries to make of it. The narrow question is about whether Greeks want their government to accept a June 26 Troika proposal that Tsipras felt he could not sign because it fell outside his mandate.

That the Troika after the referendum was announced then pulled a Lucy and Charlie Brown move on Syriza, and retracted the proposal, is of less interest. Lucy always pulls away the football, and Charlie Brown always kicks air. He should wisen up at some point and refuse to play ball.

However, at the same time, though it’s highly unfair to burden the Greeks’ shoulders with this, the referendum has a far broader significance. It is about what and who will rule Europe going forward, and we’re talking decades here.

It will either be a union of functioning democracies, or it will be a totalitarian regime in which all 28 nations surrender their independence, their sovereignty, their votes and then their lives to Brussels and Berlin.

Democracies are about one thing first and foremost: the people decide. If you can’t have that, than why would you have elections and referendums? Those then become mere theater pieces. Like we already have in the US, where if anyone can explain to me the difference between the Clintons and the Kardashians, by all means give it a go.

Since it’s clear that Berlin is by far the strongest voice in the three-headed monster the Troika has become, it’s no exaggeration to say that what we see unfold before our eyes is yet another German occupation of Greece. There are no tanks and boxcars involved yet, but wars can be fought in many ways. And scorched earth can take up many different forms too. It’s the result that counts.

In the meantime it has somehow become entirely acceptable for politicians and media from foreign countries to tell the Greeks what to do, who to vote for, and what to make sure happens after.

European Parliament chief Martin Schulz even dares claim that Syriza should resign if the vote is yes, and it should be replaced with a bunch of technocrats. It’s none of your business, Martin. Or yours, Bloomberg writers, or Schäuble, or anyone else who’s not Greek. Shut up! You’re all way out of -democratic- line.

It’s up to Greeks to decide what happens in their country. It’s both a sovereign state and a democracy. The utmost respect for this should be the very foundation of everything we do as free people, whose ancestors fought so hard to make us free.

How come we moved so far away from that, so fast? What happened to us? What have we become?

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Fintan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

CLICK ABOVE TO PLAY VIDEO


"Whether there is a Yes or a No, an agreement is in the offing.
If [voters] say yes, the Greek Government is simply going to
sign on the dotted line on the proposal by the institutions on
the 25th of June. If it is a no, I can assure you that on this
week of impasse, we've had some very interesting proposals
coming from official Europe confidentially, and a deal is more
or less done."

Yanis Varoufakis reacting to reports that the IMF accepts Greece's economy is
unsustainable without debt write down and a 20--year grace period in repayments.
http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=84024#84024

Mr Varoufakis also stated in the interview:

- A debt restructuring deal for Europe as a whole is possible.
- Banks will reopen in Greece on Tuesday regardless of the referendum outcome.

In an address on Greek TV today, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said that
the IMF report "confirms the obvious - that Greek debt is not sustainable."

#greferendum #grexit #greece

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