Afghanistan - Pakistan : Latest Developments

[IronClad]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9141255/US-Defence-Secretary-Afghan-shooting-rampage-not-unusual-in-war.html

War is hell. The military have to call it a war because it justifies the troops being in Afghanistan and going out on patrol. 10 years and they haven't reached the stage where the peoples police force is in control. This ain't a war - it is a botched civil problem. Law and order in the sphere of the operation of a civilian police force.

The army presence should be low-key. But I guess they are out in full battle dress. Asking to be targets. I guess it is something like being under Marshall Law.

Incapable of applying a political solution. A never ending occupation. Leave it to the military and all they know is in the military textbooks.

It's not the first time and it won't be the last. Is this a cry for help. The military is out of it's depth.

The troops have been there a decade and they are still being blown up on patrols. Are they not getting the message?

Folk back home are getting the message because the only way they can accept this senseless killing of 16 Afghans is by assuming Bales is mentally defective by being dressed for war and probably been brainwashed that he is in a war. He knows better. Is isn't a war and his politicians have let him down.

There is no excuse for what this soldier has done but that's how we can accept it. How the top brass can accept it is because it is a war. It isn't a war. Afghanistan was invaded. It was a walk in the park. The peace is more fraught with danger than the invasion ever was.

Soldiers and civilians are dying in peace time. Something is wrong. It can't be hidden for ever.

The military are useless in a time of peace. We must discard this idea that it is a war when it is not.

[duaneh]

see, there's an explanation

how big is the base
I wonder how far apart the two villages are....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/24/robert-bales-split-killing_n_1377292.html

Robert Bales, Afghanistan Shooting Suspect, Split Killing Spree, Officials Say

WASHINGTON (AP) — U.S. investigators believe the U.S. soldier accused of killing 17 Afghan civilians split the slaughter into two episodes, returning to his base after the first attack and later slipping away to kill again, two American officials said Saturday.

This scenario seems to support the U.S. government's assertion — contested by some Afghans — that the killings were done by one person, since they would have been perpetrated over a longer period of time than assumed when Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales was detained March 11 outside his base in southern Afghanistan.

But it also raises new questions about how Bales, who was formally charged Friday with 17 counts of premeditated murder and other crimes, could have carried out the nighttime attacks without drawing attention from any Americans on the Kandahar province base.

The two American officials who disclosed the investigators' finding spoke on condition of anonymity because the politically sensitive probe is ongoing.

Many details about the killings, including a possible motive, have not been made public. The documents released by the U.S. military Friday in connection with the murder charges do not include a timeline or a narrative of what is alleged to have happened.

Bales, 38, is accused of killing nine Afghan children and eight adults. The bodies were found in Balandi and Alkozai villages — one north and one south of the base, in Kandahar's Panjwai district.

Bales also was charged with six counts of attempted murder and six counts of assault in the same case.


U.S. investigators now believe that Bales walked off his base that night and killed several people in one of the villages, then went back to the base. The American officials, who are privy to some details of the investigation, said they do not know why Bales returned, how long he stayed or what he did while there.

He then slipped off the base a second time and killed civilians in the second village before again heading back toward the base. It was while he was returning the second time that a U.S. military search party spotted him. He is reported to have surrendered without a struggle.

Bales is being held in a military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan.

There have been previous suggestions that Bales could have returned to base after the first set of shootings, but the American officials who spoke to The Associated Press on Saturday provided the first official disclosure that U.S. investigators have come to this conclusion.

Members of the Afghan delegation investigating the killings said one Afghan guard working from midnight to 2 a.m. on March 11 saw a U.S. soldier return to the base around 1:30 a.m. Another Afghan soldier who replaced the first and worked until 4 a.m. said he saw a U.S. soldier leave the base at 2:30 a.m. It's unknown whether the two Afghan guards saw the same U.S. soldier.

U.S. officials have said Bales left the base the first time armed with his 9mm pistol and M-4 rifle, which was outfitted with a grenade launcher.

Bales' civilian attorney, John Henry Browne, said Friday that he believes the government will have a hard time proving its case and that his client's mental state will become an important issue. Browne has said Bales suffered from the stress of serving four combat tours.

The decision to charge Bales with premeditated murder suggests that prosecutors believe they have sufficient evidence that he consciously conceived the killings.

The maximum punishment for a premeditated murder conviction is death. The mandatory minimum sentence is life imprisonment with the chance

[IronClad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUQ_N_vHc0&feature=related

Is it any different in Afghanistan? It can't be because this wouldn't be happening in Iraq.

Are these commentators the only ones who have come to these conclusions? Are there any with the same feelings in Iraq or Afghanistan?

If there is then there will be more murders of civilians and fragging might even come back. Hey, that will put the cat amongst the pigeons.

Why does a soldier kill 16 Afghans - no one has a clue?

Why do soldiers start fragging? Everyone will know.

Are these guys pussies? Or are they those who have finally got the message?

There has come a time when to support our troops in these countries is not patriotic. It is not acting in their best interests nor their respective countries. Support can only be given if you are there. We ain't, so we should shut the **** up.

[Rom]

"Why does a soldier kill 16 Afghans - no one has a clue? "

What people cannot see may be because of dyslexia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia
"There is no cure for dyslexia, but dyslexic individuals can learn to read and write with appropriate educational support. Early intervention is very helpful."
---

We can start with first sentence
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2012/03/22/robert-bales-lone-nut-or-scapegoat/
"On an average about 50 night raids take place daily. And every night about 25 people are killed in cold blood in different parts of the country."
This is the "new" counterinsurgency doctrine – which is supposed to win "hearts and minds" – in practice: a program of systematic terror designed to dry up support for the Taliban by driving up the costs of collaborating with them"

Average means
"In the most common case, the data set is a list of numbers. The average of a list of numbers is a single number intended to typify the numbers in the list. If all the numbers in the list are the same, then this number should be used. If the numbers are not the same, the average is calculated by combining the numbers from the list in a specific way and computing a single number as being the average of the list."

"25" is a number. Is means roughly the same number as of all your fingers together - twice.

In above context "cold blood" is not literally meant. If you have seen a cat strangled you may transfer that to humans, to get an idea of meaning. here is a better defscription:
"if you do something, especially kill someone, in cold blood, you do it in a way which is cruel because you plan it and do it without emotion Four men were charged with the killing, in cold blood, of a French tourist last summer. An unarmed boy was shot in cold blood outside his home yesterday."

a.s.o., good luck

[Rom]

(double posting deleted)

[IronClad]

So why hasn't Karzai spoken out before?

What is alleged forms a pattern of which this latest incident is a mere continuation. Isn't the alleged incidences before much more news worthy.

However, if it is true then they must be war crimes that Karzai has covered up. And so has the media. If it is a pattern then it will stop for a time but will get going again because this is their only tactic. War crime tactics.

[Rom]

IronClad
"However, if it is true then they must be war crimes that Karzai has covered up"

Yes it is a pattern. We can see the pattern since WW II at least. One example

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/former-guatemalan-special-forces-soldier-jailed-for-6060-years-ncxdc-031312

Since we have not heard much about it it may be that "Karsai" covered up that too ... ? Double guilty so to say....

As you understand there are "lone nuts" in Guatamala too, but now they have found the one who killed 100.000. He got 6000 years punishment. He was just a soldier. Terrible story. Think about what 2 of that kind of "lone nuts" could have done... decimated whole South-America ... ?

Edit: A good analysis supporting my version. The whole article is a good reading

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/03/27/the-massacre-of-the-afghan-17-and-the-obama-cover-up/
"1). President Obama cannot allow an entire garrison, including their commanding officer to be put on trial for the war crimes in this massacre.
Holding anyone, besides the hapless Sgt. Bales, accountable for the massacre would incite a general rebellion within the armed forces, or, at a minimum, further demoralize the elite Special Forces who are expected to man these long-term engagements after the regulars withdraw, which in the case of Afghanistan could last until 2024.
This issue has implications far beyond Afghanistan: Obama has developed his entire new counter-insurgency strategy centered on the easy entry and bloody exits of US Special Forces targeting over seventy-five countries. The Special Forces figure prominently in Obama’s military preparations for Syria and Iran, which have been developed at the behest of his Zionist overlords"

[duaneh]

Afghan suspect attorney: US gov 'hiding evidence'
By CHRIS GRYGIEL and MIKE BAKER Associated Press The Associated Press
Friday, March 30, 2012 12:31 PM EDT

John Henry Browne told The Associated Press that members of the defense team in Afghanistan were told they would have access to witnesses at a hospital, but later discovered the people had been released.

He also said the U.S. government has not turned over files to the lawyers defending Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales.

The defense team said in a statement the prosecution is withholding information "while potential witnesses scatter."

"It's outrageous," Browne said. "What they are basically doing is hiding evidence. The only reason to hide evidence is if you don't have evidence."

An Army spokesman did not immediately return a call seeking comment on Browne's allegations.

Bales has been charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder. He remained held at a U.S. military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan.

The defense statement said the team in Afghanistan attempted to interview injured civilians being treated at a hospital in Kandahar, but were denied access and told to coordinate with prosecutors.

The prosecution team interviewed the civilians, but the defense team said they were unable to after the people were released and no contact information was provided for them.

Browne's team also said they have been denied access to the civilians' medical records, as well as video allegedly taken from a surveillance blimp showing Bales on the night of the killings.




Dan Conway, a military attorney who represented one of four Lewis-McChord soldiers convicted in the deliberate killings of three Afghan civilians in 2010, said the government doesn't appear to be doing anything wrong at this point in the Bales case. He said prosecutors have little obligation to turn over evidence right now and doesn't need to help coordinate interviews this early in the process.

"This is just going to be an uphill battle," Conway said.

The defense will have a right to interview witnesses that could be called at trial, so the Army could then take the defense team into the villages with security or coordinate to have them come onto the military base. But Conway said the challenges of interviewing witnesses now means the defense team may not be able to track down people to bolster their case — such as witnesses unable to identify Bales or those who believe there were two shooters.

"If they want to talk to those witnesses, they're going to have to get an investigator and probably go to the village and talk to civilians themselves," Conway said.

U.S. military officials have said Bales was drinking on a southern Afghanistan base on March 11 before creeping away to two villages at night, shooting his victims and setting many of them on fire. Nine were children.

Bales has had incidents involving alcohol and violence in the past. In 2002, He was arrested for a drunken assault of a security guard at a Tacoma casino. That charge was dismissed after Bales completed 20 hours of anger management training.

In 2008, a couple accused an intoxicated Bales of grabbing a woman's hand and thrusting it toward his crotch before kicking and punching the woman's boyfriend, according to a police report. Prosecutors declined to pursue that case.

————

Baker reported from Olympia, Wash.

[IronClad]

It was reported to be 16 but the charge is 17.

If the bodies were burnt then hasn't the prosecution got more to prove than normally is the case? With time and facilities, including money and willing parties to compile a case it should be damn good when it comes out. But then the more the case is investigated local the more America stands on trial. Who is in the dock? America or one soldier?

I'd say that the quality of the prosecution will equal the quality of the case of those who wish to shame America.

[Fintan]

This is the latest CNN report, for what it's worth:

[IronClad]

One can only imagine what the ordinary American in street thinks of CNN broadcasting the case against one of their own [not to mentioned of course the military itself if it concerned a British soldier.

If CNN are losing their audiance then we can see why.

This video was one where CNN owners should have concluded they could not publish this particularly because it is sub judice. But not only that, it was also one-sided - not even balanced reporting.

Furthermore, the witnesses seemed all to "normal" and ready to talk to the media so soon after the trauma. Don't think that children cannot be versed in what to say. Kids that have grown up in war have grown up fast and if it means getting back at those who are held responsible for their plight kids do have vivid imaginations. Yes, it was bias reporting at a time when the American public are expected to support their troops.

What is CNN saying in effect? You support the troops and this is what they do. Shame on you. But it is also shame on America.

The media are so fond of acting as judge and jury. This time the American people should hit back and switch off in both senses of the word. CNN is an enemy of America. Unless of course it leads to stop the war marches and then they might have achieved something.

[IronClad]

Iraq is off topic but nevertheless it needs to be brought into the main concept of this thread that of regime change and occupation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/feb/15/curveball-lies-us-war-iraq-video

The reason for lying to the Americans is justifiable and the fact he said he would do it again for his country is honourable.

What isn't is if he provided the west with "intelligence" that they wanted to hear but surely that was not true otherwise his code name would not have been Curveball.

A curveball is when someone introduces a significant deviation to a preceding concept. The preceding concept being that Iraq didn't have WMD.

With Curveball's explanation does it at least make the invasion of Iraq palatable?

[IronClad]

The BBC2 programme Modern Spies featured a sting operation which is generally associated with the FBI.

This is obviously speculation but the FBI and others who operate sting operations to infiltrate terrorist groups or wannabes must be experts in putting a man in to introduce an "arms dealer" who offers to supply light and even heavy weapons and eventually catch the wannabe terrorist in the criminal act because these wannabes are either pretty stupid or dumbed-down after being educated in the west. With all the training in Afghanistan or Pakistan you'd think they would know about these sting operations on day one and in any event would have secure channels for the supply of weapons.

But heck, what do I know. I know that many of these sting operation don't feel kosher - do they. It's just a feeling. They never seem to lead to a Mr. Big being put away, do they.

[bri]

Apparently we missed this:


Anatomy of a Massacre - Afganistan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkyvKuFuEs4

Sorry, embedding disabled by request.
Not endorsing, just started watching.
Edit: finished, worth watching.

[Fintan]