Air/FAA Response - Overview

[cheapshot]

Interesting, don't see much with it though, a lot of coincidences. I knew UAL175 and AAL11 crossed I didn't know that UAL175 crossed UAL93. Either way I don't beleive in a UAV (unmanned aerial vehicle) flying under these. We were still talking to the UAL175 Pilot when they crossed AAL11. We turned him over to ZNY shortly after and he was hijacked shortly after that. He had a pretty good visual on AAL11 and advised us that he was probably at FL290, of course I agree with you that he descended immediatelly afterwards. UAL175 would have a seen a UAV if there was one. The traingle thing I don't quite get it. There a some miltary bases at those locations, but PLB has been closed for years, it just recently was opened by ICE (Immigration Customs Enforcement), I don't know of any military base at Lebanon, unless the Army Guard has something out there. Griffis has no planes, it was closed a while back. Schenectady has C-130s and so does Sulffolk (Gabreski). But you also missed some Quonsett in RI has C-130's, Atlantic City has F-16s, Syracuse has F-16s, Burlington VT has F-16s, so i don't really get the grid work. I personally know the pilots brother of AAL11 who flies out of Pease, and I can pretty much guarantee that his brother is not sun bathing on some remote island. I don't want to put people down or there theories. I beleive people should always question the goverment, people deserve answers. Why were my tapes not pulled for two and half years, it wasn't a coverup, it was becasue we deal with a beauracratic mess. There was mass confusion that day bewteen the military and the FAA, and I believe it was a bigger mess at FAA HQ. Our radar was fine we could see AAL11 probably down to 1,500 to 2,000 ft. Why NEADs couldn't I can't tell you. I can tell you we use the same radar. AAL11 became a phantom aircraft for several reasons one, FAA HQ was just getting involved when he hit the tower. AAL airlines would never confirm there aircraft was down, though UAL confirmed within minutes. Its not a conspiracy either at AAL airlines they do a lockdown when a plane goes down, and you can't get any info from them at all. Why UAL airlines gave us info I don't know. I have talked to ZNY controllers, we worked together on UAL93 the movie from Paul Greegrass. There was no talk of AAL11 continuing on. Though that phone call came from me it was because I heard it on a telcon, and I don't even know who was on it at the time, I passed that info onto NEADs becuase I thought they should know it. I still have questions, but doubt I will ever get answers, I actually learn info every now and then from the blogs I visit some days. Remember we had a goverment agency that day, and the military who were not obvoiusly ready to handle that type of situation. To beleive that another agency had planned this vs our own country and to pull it off without a hitch, without other agencies discovering an inkling of the plot, well someone is just giving the goverment a little to much credit.

[obeylittle]

Perhaps this has been mentioned but I'd like to point out the problems, operationally, an op as big as 9/11 could encounter without an airline guidance system, a read-only client system minimum on the control side, on the ground or otherwise. The planning bodies must have taken this into consideration, even if it was truly arabs and/or al-ciada (and few really will buy the-arabs-did-it-alone blame game nowadays) that ran the made-for-tv ops and deceptions.

This was taking place inside possibly the busiest airspace on the continent and during the busiest hours of the day for air traffic. There are airliners flying every which direction... a confusing gauntlet of planes for the experienced pilot, unguided, to fly amongst, let alone a handful of amateur arabs. Being that 9/11 is similar to (if not actually) a miltary operation, it would leave too much to chance in a military plan operationally--too many unknowns, a critical part of the op left uncontrolled, too much luck necessary to survive intact, operationally, to the target(s).

Now why would the alleged hijackers turn off radar or transponders or whatever, when operationally, they would need help in this busiest of airspace to carry out the mission as planned? Indeed to fly freely around, uninterrupted and unscathed? How did they make it through that gauntlet virtually unnoticed by other air traffic? How were the planes navigated to targets, while allegedly doing the zig-zag thang all over the eastern seaboard without encountering closeup, other airliners?

Wouldn't you expect that from the control side at least, militarily thinking, that these planes were guided and communication from/to the pilot(s) was required?

Me thinks so... that even if you have somehow memorized the expected traffic routes and times that other planes normally travel through particular zones on that weekday, that you may encounter several tons of trouble not far away from the departure points. I wouldn't leave this critical point to chance, would you?

[cheapshot]

We in ATC actually call it the big sky theory, if left to thier own devices most airplanes would miss each other becasue the sky is so big, we the controllers are the ones who put them all on airways traveling over the same fixes and the same routes in actuality we are increasing the opportunity for the aircraft to hit by putting them in all of the same places. Turning off the transponder and then flying at a 500 foot interval would almost gurantee you would'n t hit anyone. Back in 2001 we were not using RVSM (Reduced Vertical Separation Minima) basically above Flight Level 290 we used 2,000 ft. intervals, below Flight Level 290 we used thousand foot intervals. So if you flew at FL300 or FL320, or if below FL290 you flew at FL285 or FL275 you would have a rare chance of hitting somone. I don't know if they did that or not, that would be my choice. They may have just bet that they wouldn't hit anyone. I have to agree with you though trying to navigate the New York City airspace would have been scary, but I think they beleived Allah was guiding them anyway. Transponders being off helped them in not being tracked by FAA or Military radar, and it worked versus one agency the military. AAL11 got to Albany NY and basically hung a left at the Hudson river and followed it to its intended destination. UAL175 probably had the same intention, but didn't get hijacked in time, his route of flight was a lot more squirelly. After talking to the ZNY controllers we wee told by them that the turn UAL175 made was incredible, the aircraft at one time was descending at about 10,000 ft per minute, that is what fighter type aircraft do. They thought the aircraft was going to pancake into the ground. This would feed into your theory that they had some help, that an ametuer pilot couldn't do this, but maybe they were just lucky, they really were lucky that day, with a little luck on our side maybe we could have gotten one of them bastards that day.

[obeylittle]

Thanks Cheapshot for the additional info. 10,000 feet per minute descent huh.... oh my. If that was indeed a boeing passenger liner as claimed pulling out of that steep descent, I'll eat my socks.

[cheapshot]

Its not totally out of characteristics, given at 10,000 ft per minute, and that was the controllers estimate at New York it could have been less, could have been more, stuff could start flying off at those descent rates, but it really mattered how many g-forces the plane took when it leveled off. I have worked aircraft in the past a matter of fact a B-727 which could descend at 7,000 ft per minute within its limitations, they didn't always do it cabin comfort you know, but I had a B-727 descend into Portland, ME once and he descended at 7 K per minute. The big thing is the momentum and the speed these aircraft built up when they hit the towers, as well as the pentagon, and in the ground in PA. THe public sees plane crashes where aircraft are trying to land at 160 knots, and see the charred remains of some aircraft. Aircraft crashing at 500 + knots basically break up into little tiny pieces and melt, the exception being engine parts, everything else is gone.

[Caustic Logic]

Two things - first on fighter speeds as mentioned on page 1 - I'd like to clarify that speed calculations in the 25% range indicate we are calculating on a straight-line path from Otis/Langley to their locations at a given time - while info on the fighters is incomplete, it seems they did not fly straight to their targets - The otis fighters went out and looped around over the ocean, and the Langley jets were sent almost due east over the ocean as well - to the offshore Air Defense ID Zone, and only to the attack scenes once the attacks were done. The pilots said they were going full speed (1500/1900 mph), other sources cite "supersonic" (750 mph or faster), and others cite speeds of 500-600 mph, an airliner crawl.

My post on Heading and Speed:
http://they-let-it-happen.blogspot.com/2006/12/heading-and-speed.html

The second point will have to wait a bit...