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Hijackers - Still Alive

 
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Fintan
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:43 pm    Post subject: Hijackers - Still Alive Reply with quote

Reply to this topic with general evidence about the issue that
many of the claimed Hijackers of the flights are still alive.


-------------------
S U M M A R Y
-------------------

A summary of the thread will be updated here as evidence
is presented in this topic.


Last edited by Fintan on Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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macauleym



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:30 pm    Post subject: FBI Press Release, Sept. 27, 2001 Reply with quote

Below I've copied the FBI's 9/27/01 press release from http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/092701hjpic.htm, including bold formatting. I've added links from the alleged hijackers' names to their photographs, and from each flight number to the page with the alleged hijackers' photographs. All of these same photos can be accessed by clicking on the "View Photographs" link which appears at the top of the original press release and in the copy below.

Quote:
Press Release

For Immediate Release
September 27, 2001

Washington D.C.
FBI National Press Office
(202) 324-3691

The FBI releases 19 photographs of individuals believed to be the hijackers
of the four airliners that crashed on September 11, 01


View Photographs

The Federal Bureau of Investigation is today releasing 19 photographs of individuals believed to be the hijackers of the four airliners that crashed on September 11, 2001, into the World Trade Center in New York, the Pentagon, and in Stony Creek Township, Pennsylvania. The FBI requests the public's assistance in obtaining more information about these individuals.

It should be noted that attempts to confirm the true identities of these individuals are still under way. The FBI asks anyone who has ever seen or has information about these individuals to immediately contact the nearest FBI office or the toll free hotline number 1-866-483-5137 or submit information at WWW.IFCCFBI.GOV. The photographs can be viewed at WWW.FBI.GOV.

AMERICAN AIRLINES #77
BOEING 757


1) Khalid Almihdhar - Possible Saudi national

-Possible resident of San Diego, California, and New York

-Alias: Sannan Al-Makki; Khalid Bin Muhammad; 'Addallah Al-Mihdhar; Khalid Mohammad Al-Saqaf

2) Majed Moqed - Possible Saudi national

-Alias: Majed M.GH Moqed; Majed Moqed, Majed Mashaan Moqed

3) Nawaf Alhazmi - Possible Saudi national

-Possible resident of Fort Lee, New Jersey; Wayne, New Jersey; San Diego, California

-Alias: Nawaf Al-Hazmi; Nawaf Al Hazmi; Nawaf M.S. Al Hazmi

4) Salem Alhazmi - Possible Saudi national

-Possible resident of Fort Lee, New Jersey; Wayne, New Jersey

5) Hani Hanjour [photo 1 | photo 2] -

-Possible resident of Phoenix, Arizona, and San Diego, California

-Alias: Hani Saleh Hanjour; Hani Saleh; Hani Hanjour, Hani Saleh H. Hanjour



AMERICAN AIRLINES #11
BOEING 767


1) Satam M.A. Al Suqami- Possible Saudi national

-Dates of birth used: June 28, 1976; Last known address: United Arab Emirates

2) Waleed M. Alshehri - Possible Saudi national

-Dates of birth used: September 13, 1974; January 1, 1976; March 3, 1976; July 8, 1977; December 20, 1978; May 11, 1979; November 5, 1979

-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida; Orlando, Florida; Daytona Beach, Florida

-Believed to be a pilot

3) Wail M. Alshehri

-Date of birth used: September 1, 1968

-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida; Newton, Massachusetts

-Believed to be a pilot

4) Mohamed Atta - Possible Egyptian national

-Date of birth used: September 1, 1968

-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida; Coral Springs, Florida; Hamburg, Germany

-Believed to be a pilot

-Alias: Mehan Atta; Mohammad El Amir; Muhammad Atta; Mohamed El Sayed; Mohamed Elsayed; Muhammad Muhammad Al Amir Awag Al Sayyid Atta; Muhammad Muhammad Al-Amir Awad Al Sayad

5) Abdulaziz Alomari - Possible Saudi national

-Dates of birth used: December 24, 1972 and May 28, 1979

-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida

-Believed to be a pilot


UNITED AIRLINES #175
BOEING 767


1) Marwan Al-Shehhi

-Date of birth used: May 9, 1978

-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida

-Believed to be a pilot

-Alias: Marwan Yusif Muhammad Rashid Al-Shehi; Marwan Yusif Muhammad Rashid Lakrab Al-Shihhi; Abu Abdullah

2) Fayez Rashid Ahmed Hassan Al Qadi Banihammad

-Possible residence(s): Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Fayez Ahmad; Banihammad Fayez Abu Dhabi Banihammad; Fayez Rashid Ahmed; Banihammad Fayez; Rasid Ahmed Hassen Alqadi; Abu Dhabi Banihammad

Ahmed Fayez; Faez Ahmed

3) Ahmed Alghamdi



-Alias: Ahmed Salah Alghamdi

4) Hamza Alghamdi [photo 1 | photo 2]

-Possible residence(s): Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Hamza Al-Ghamdi; Hamza Ghamdi; Hamzah Alghamdi;

Hamza Alghamdi Saleh

5) Mohand Alshehri [photo 1 | photo 2]

-Possible residence(s): Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Mohammed Alshehhi; Mohamd Alshehri; Mohald Alshehri


UNITED AIRLINES #93
BOEING 757


1) Saeed Alghamdi

-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Abdul Rahman Saed Alghamdi; Ali S Alghamdi; Al- Gamdi; Saad M.S. Al Ghamdi; Sadda Al Ghamdi; Saheed Al-Ghamdi; Seed Al Ghamdi

2) Ahmed Ibrahim A. Al Haznawi - Possible Saudi national

-Date of birth used: October 11, 1980

-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Ahmed Alhaznawi

3) Ahmed Alnami

-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Ali Ahmed Alnami; Ahmed A. Al-Nami; Ahmed Al- Nawi

4) Ziad Samir Jarrah

-Believed to be a pilot

-Alias: Zaid Jarrahi; Zaid Samr Jarrah; Ziad S. Jarrah; Ziad Jarrah Jarrat, Ziad Samir Jarrahi

#####
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: No Arab bodies here... Reply with quote

There's an interesting couple of articles that were written by someone who, thorugh FOIA, requested the autopsy lists from the flights.

It seems that the non-evidence of Arabs seems to point to the fact that someone's still alive, anyway...

From: Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77 By Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D

Quote:
When airline disasters occur, airlines will routinely provide a manifest list for anxious families. You may have noticed that even before Sep 11th, that airlines are pretty meticulous about getting an accurate headcount before takeoff. It seems very unlikely to me, that five Arabs sneaked onto a flight with weapons.

...

The AFIP suggest these numbers; 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were “passengers” on the plane. The AA list only had 56 and the list just obtained has 58. They did not explain how they were able to tell “victims” bodies from “hijacker” bodies. In fact, from the beginning NO explanation has been given for the extra five suggested in news reports except that the FBI showed us the pictures to make up the difference, and that makes it so.

...

No Arabs wound up on the morgue slab; however, three ADDITIONAL people not listed by American Airline sneaked in. I have seen no explanation for these extras. I did give American the opportunity to “revise” their original list, but they have not responded. The new names are: Robert Ploger, Zandra Ploger, and Sandra Teague. The AFIP claims that the only “passenger” body that they were not able to identify is the toddler, Dana Falkenberg, whose parents and young sister are on the list of those identified.


Original article and link to 2nd part here:

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm

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macauleym



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: No Arab bodies here... Reply with quote

Thomas Olmsted assumes that because there are "no Arabs" on the "autopsy list" he received in response to his FOIA request, there were "No Arabs on Flight 77", as he claims in the title of his article. A closer look at the FOIA letter, however, reveals that the "Attached file contains the names of the 58 victims of AA flight 77 that were identified here at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology" [emphasis mine]. That the list apparently includes no Arabic names (page 1 | page 2), and specifically none of the alleged hijackers' names, indicates merely that the alleged hijackers were not among the victims who were identified. Why might this be?

Of course, maybe the alleged hijackers weren't on Flight 77, as Thomas Olmsted infers. Then of course their remains wouldn't have been identified. But if this CBS article is correct, there's a more benign explanation for why the alleged hijackers were not among the victims who were identified. I've copied the full article below, adding emphasis to point out the relevant and most relevant parts. Note that this article was published on August 17, 2002, more than ten months before Thomas Olmsted published his article claiming "No Arabs on Flight 77" (July 6, 2003).

Quote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/17/attack/main519033.shtml
Remains Of 9 Sept. 11 Hijackers Held

WASHINGTON, August 17, 2002


(CBS) Among the human remains painstakingly sorted from the Pentagon and Pennsylvania crash sites of Sept. 11 are those of nine of the hijackers.

The FBI has held them for months, and no one seems to know what should be done with them. It's a politically and emotionally charged question for the government, which eventually must decide how to dispose of some of the most despised men in American history.

"I think in Islam, you're supposed to be buried whole, so I would take them and scatter them all over the place," said Donn Marshall, whose wife, Shelley, died at the Pentagon. "They don't deserve any kind of religious courtesies."

In New York, where the monumental task of identifying the remains of 2,823 victims believed to be dead continues, no remains have been linked to the 10 hijackers who crashed two airliners into the World Trade Center. About half the victims' families still are waiting for their loved ones to be identified, though it's likely many never will be because so much of the site was incinerated.

In contrast, the remains of all 40 victims in the Pennsylvania crash and all but five of the 184 victims at the Pentagon site were identified months ago.

A group memorial service is planned for Arlington National Cemetery on Sept. 12, when all the remains from the Pentagon that could not be matched with a particular victim will be buried, said Maj. Sandy Troeber, a spokeswoman.

Little attention has been paid to the terrorists' remains found mingled with those of the Pennsylvania and Pentagon victims.

"It's a unique situation," said Dr. Jerry Spencer, a former chief medical examiner for the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, who worked 30 years as a Navy forensic pathologist. "The terrorists are usually not in our possession in the United States like this. The other issue is, will the families want them back?"

Four sets of remains in Pennsylvania and five at the Pentagon were grouped together as the hijackers - but not identified by name - through a process of elimination.


Families of the airplanes' passengers and crews and those who died within the Pentagon provided DNA samples, typically on toothbrushes or hairbrushes, to aid with identification. The remains that didn't match any of the samples were ruled to be the terrorists, said Chris Kelly, spokesman for the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, which did the DNA work. The nine sets of remains matched the number of hijackers believed to be on the two planes.

Without reference samples from the hijackers' personal effects or from their immediate families to compare with the recovered DNA, the remains could not be matched to individuals.


With the one-year anniversary approaching, State Department officials say they have received no requests for the remains. The department would be responsible for handling such a request from any government seeking the return of a citizen's body.

Officials have said that all but one of the nine hijackers recovered had connections to Saudi Arabia. The other was Lebanese.

Officials at the Saudi Embassy in Washington did not respond to requests for comment.

In more typical cases, foreign families also could contact local authorities. But the hijackers' remains are under the control of the FBI.

"To the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any friends or family members to try to claim the remains of these people," said Jeff Killeen, spokesman for the FBI field office in Pittsburgh. "They are in the custody of the FBI in Washington. They have not been released."

In cases where badly damaged bodies cannot be identified, or when no one steps forward to claim a body, state or local laws usually dictate what will be done with them.

"If it's a mass disaster, and they can't identify the remains, they may put all of them in a mass grave or they may be cremated," said Michael Bell, vice president of the National Association of Medical Examiners and the deputy chief examiner for Broward County, Fla.

Authorities usually retain only small DNA samples, photographs or other pertinent information that might lead to identification later or become evidence in a criminal case.

The remains linked to terrorists were taken by the FBI in February, she said.

James Starrs, a professor of forensic science and law at George Washington University, said there should be public oversight of what the government does with human remains, whether they are criminals or victims.

Policies must take into account that there are cases where relatives don't seek repatriation of remains, including many examples of Americans killed on overseas battlefields, noted Starrs, who is known for his forensic work in historical cases, such as the outlaw Jesse James and the mystery of the Boston Strangler.

"Good persons or bad persons, you can't assume that the relatives are going to come to the fore and try to reclaim their remains," Starr [sic] said.

The Sept. 12 ceremony at Arlington National Cemetery will hold special significance for families of five people whose remains have never been identified, Col. Jody Draves, a spokeswoman for the Military District of Washington, which oversees the cemetery, said Friday.

The service will include burial of the cremated ashes of all remains not linked to a particular victim, as well as some remains which were identified that family members asked to be included.

"The intent is not as a memorial service but as a group burial for victims not identified," Draves said.

© MMII The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


In summary: Based on the information in this CBS/AP article, we can infer that the alleged hijackers' names were omitted from the list of "victims of AA flight 77 that were identified here at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology" because, without "reference samples from the hijackers' personal effects or from their immediate families to compare with the recovered DNA", they were "not identified by name", but rather "through process of elimination".
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Turner



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the BBC News website talking about this subject merely 12 days after the incident

The quote by the then FBI director Robert Mueller at the end of the piece is interesting aswell


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm


Sunday, 23 September, 2001, 12:30 GMT 13:30 UK
Hijack 'suspects' alive and well


Waleed Al Shehri left the US a year ago, he says

Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well.

The identities of four of the 19 suspects accused of having carried out the attacks are now in doubt.

Saudi Arabian pilot Waleed Al Shehri was one of five men that the FBI said had deliberately crashed American Airlines flight 11 into the World Trade Centre on 11 September.

His photograph was released, and has since appeared in newspapers and on television around the world.

Hijacking suspects
Flight 175: Marwan Al-Shehhi, Fayez Ahmed, Mohald Alshehri, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi

Flight 11: Waleed M Alshehri, Wail Alshehri, Mohamed Atta, Abdulaziz Alomari and Satam Al Suqami

Flight 77: Khalid Al-Midhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi and Hani Hanjour

Flight 93: Ahmed Alhaznawi, Ahmed Alnami, Ziad Jarrahi and Saeed Alghamdi

Now he is protesting his innocence from Casablanca, Morocco.

He told journalists there that he had nothing to do with the attacks on New York and Washington, and had been in Morocco when they happened. He has contacted both the Saudi and American authorities, according to Saudi press reports.

He acknowledges that he attended flight training school at Daytona Beach in the United States, and is indeed the same Waleed Al Shehri to whom the FBI has been referring.

But, he says, he left the United States in September last year, became a pilot with Saudi Arabian airlines and is currently on a further training course in Morocco.

Mistaken identity


Abdulaziz Al Omari, another of the Flight 11 hijack suspects, has also been quoted in Arab news reports.


Abdelaziz Al Omari 'lost his passport in Denver'
He says he is an engineer with Saudi Telecoms, and that he lost his passport while studying in Denver.

Another man with exactly the same name surfaced on the pages of the English-language Arab News.

The second Abdulaziz Al Omari is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines, the report says.

Meanwhile, Asharq Al Awsat newspaper, a London-based Arabic daily, says it has interviewed Saeed Alghamdi.


Khalid Al-Midhar may also be alive

He was listed by the FBI as a hijacker in the United flight that crashed in Pennsylvania.

And there are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Al Midhar, may also be alive.

FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged on Thursday that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers is in doubt.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:57 pm    Post subject: Der Spiegel article contra "alive" hijackers Reply with quote

Here's part of a Der Spiegel article which ostensibly debunks at least some of the "alive hijackers" claims:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,265160-2,00.html

Quote:
THE ZOMBIE TERRORISTS

The manner in which banal circumstances mutate into shadowy mysteries under such conditions is evident in an odd story that caused Mzoudi's attorney Rosenthal to engage in some speculation in court: the news that at least six of the alleged hijackers were supposedly alive and their voices were being broadcast live through various media outlets several days after the attacks.

On September 12th, a seventh man supposedly contacted his father. His name was Mohammed Atta. Atta Senior, a Cairo attorney, hasn't heard anything from his son since then, and is convinced that he has been murdered by US killers. Whether or not it includes Atta, to self-proclaimed alternative investigators the zombie terrorist theory serves as key evidence of shady machinations on the part of US authorities.

"This," say Bröckers and his co-author Andreas Hauß in what the blurb on the jacket calls a "meticulously" researched book, "has ... far-reaching consequences for the entire case, because it makes it entirely unclear as to who actually piloted the aircraft."

Just how shaky this line of argumentation is becomes evident in a statement just three lines farther down the page. "We," write the authors, "did not contact and personally interview them, nor have they been interviewed by anyone else recently." The authors continue to state that it is quite possible that the undead are now in fact dead. In the authors' opinions, if these men are alive, it must be perfectly understandable that someone who "is being accused of several thousand acts of murder" is likely to be in hiding "and unavailable for interviews."

Bröckers and Hauß spend fifteen pages making their version of a tale of suicide assassins seem plausible. Bülow does the same thing in five pages. However, a few telephone calls are all it takes to destroy their zombie theories. What these investigative journalists should have done was to spend a little time listening to those whom they cite as "reputable" sources for their arguments. Take the BBC, for example, which did in fact report, on September 23, 2001, that some of the alleged terrorists were alive and healthy and had protested their being named as assassins.

But there is one wrinkle. The BBC journalist responsible for the story only recalls this supposed sensation after having been told the date on which the story aired. "No, we did not have any videotape or photographs of the individuals in question at that time," he says, and tells us that the report was based on articles in Arab newspapers, such as the Arab News, an English-language Saudi newspaper.

The operator at the call center has the number for the Arab News on speed dial. We make a call to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. A few seconds later, Managing Editor John Bradley is on the line. When we tell Bradley our story, he snorts and says: "That's ridiculous! People here stopped talking about that a long time ago."

Bradley tells us that at the time his reporters did not speak directly with the so-called "survivors," but instead combined reports from other Arab papers. These reports, says Bradley, appeared at a time when the only public information about the attackers was a list of names that had been published by the FBI on September 14th. The FBI did not release photographs until four days after the cited reports, on September 27th.

The photographs quickly resolved the nonsense about surviving terrorists.
According to Bradley, "all of this is attributable to the chaos that prevailed during the first few days following the attack. What we're dealing with are coincidentally identical names." In Saudi Arabia, says Bradley, the names of two of the allegedly surviving attackers, Said al-Ghamdi and Walid al-Shari, are "as common as John Smith in the United States or Great Britain."

The final explanation is provided by the newspaper Asharq Al-Awsat, one of the sources of Arab News, which in turn serves as a source to the BBC. Mohammed Samman is the name of the reporter who interviewed a man named Said al-Ghamdi in Tunis, only to find that al-Ghamdi was quite horrified to discover his name on the FBI list of assassins.

Samman remembers his big story well. "That was a wonderful story," he says. And that's all it was. It had nothing to do with the version made up of Bröckers' and Bülow's combined fantasies.

"The problem," says Samman, "was that after the first FBI list had been published, CNN released a photo of the pilot Said al-Ghamdi that had been obtained from the files of those Saudi pilots who had at some point received official flight training in the United States."

After Samman's story was reported by the news agencies, he was contacted by CNN. "I gave them Ghamdi's telephone number. The CNN people talked to the pilot and apologized profusely. The whole thing was quite obviously a mix-up. The Ghamdi family is one of the largest families in Saudi Arabia, and there are thousands of men named Said al-Ghamdi."

When we ask Samman to take another look at the FBI's list of photographs, he is more than happy to oblige, and tells us: "The Ghamdi on the photo is not the pilot with whom I spoke."

The investigative journalists should have been able to figure out just how obvious the solution to this puzzle was. They all write that a man named Abd al-Asis al-Umari had been named as a perpetrator by the FBI, and that there are apparently many individuals with this name. Bröckers and Hauß even noticed that the FBI had initially released an incorrect first name to the press. All of this certainly suggests that there was a mix-up, but it's also something that the conspiracy theorists apparently did not consider plausible.

In the case of the supposedly surviving terrorist Walid al-Shari, the truth is even more obvious. At least Bülow had the opportunity to avoid making this mistake. In his book, he writes that the alleged assassin Shari "lives in Casablanca and works as a pilot, according to information provided by the airline Royal Air Maroc."

If Bülow had inquired with the airline, he would have discovered that the name of the pilot who lives in Casablanca is Walid al-Shri and not, like that of the assassin, Walid al-Shari. This minor detail makes a big difference, namely the difference between a dead terrorist and a living innocent man. But to conspiracy theorists, discovering the truth is like solving a crossword puzzle for children: What's a four-letter word for a domesticated animal? Hrse.

Whatever doesn't fit is made to fit. And whatever fits is included without scrutiny. "The uncritical acceptance of any argument that suggests a conspiracy" is one of the cornerstones of all conspiracy theories, writes conservative US historian Daniel Pipes. "The conspiracy theorist starts with the conclusion and then looks for reasons to rule everything out that doesn't fit." If you happen to be holding a hammer, you're probably more likely to see nails everywhere.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:34 am    Post subject: Re: Der Spiegel article contra "alive" hijackers Reply with quote

Regarding the "Spiegel"-smear on my research of the hijackers identity, some monthes after I received document which proofes the lies of the White House & the Saudi Governemnt and their mouthpiece "Der Spiegel". I presented this evidence in my lecture at the Toronto 9/11-conference in 2004:

" (...)However if we look at what we know about Agent Atta in Florida, we might name those countries that seem to be involved: Saudi-Arabia and Pakistan. From the latter, a top-agent of the pakistan secret service ISI – Saeed Omar Sheik - whose chief General Mahmud happened to be in Washington on Sept. 11th and who was later indicted in the murder of journalist Daniel Pearl –wired 100.000 $ to an account of Atta in August 2001. The months before Atta and Al-shehi had received similar large sums from an account in the Arabian Emirates. So far the FBI investigated the moneytrail of Atta very fast – but since then it has stopped and turned to cover-up these and other connections of the supossed gang leader. CNN even blanked out the the Name of General Ahmed Mahmud in a transcript of Condoleeza Rice’s press-conference, where she was asked about his meetings in Washington on the days round Sept.11th.

In a similiar way the Saudi-background of 9/11 is covered up – a recent book „House of Saud, House of Bush“ and Michael Moores praised documentary have shed some light on this and it’s allready discussed in many mainstream media. I can add a small detail here confirming the ongoing cover-up:

In my last book – documentating the dubious identities of the hijackers – I quoted from the press release of a Meeting of Minister of Foreign Affairs, Prince Saud Al-Faisal and Pres. Bush on Sept. 20th 2001:

„Regarding the inclusion of Saudi names in the published list of the suspects, Prince Saud commented that haste in publishing the names of suspects has been acknowledged, and that it has been proven that five of the people listed had nothing to do with what happened, adding: "We very much hope that before being published, information, names and pictures will be verified." (End of Quotation)

This press release was published on the website of the Saudi Embassy – but you will not find it there anymore, it’s now a dead link.

http://www.saudiembassy.net/press_release/01-spa/09-20-Saud2.htm


When our book „Facts, forgeries and the suppressed evidence of 9-11“ came out in August 2003 – and the „Spiegel“-Magazin tried to ridicule my claim of the highly dubious hijackers identities, they asked the Saudi Embassy in Berlin about this quote of the Foreign Minister. Since the „Spiegel“ -guys aren’t cooperating with me, they didn’t provide me with the answers; but supported instead the befriended TV-Magazine „Panorama“ for an smear on the books of Andreas von Bülow, Gerhard Wisniewski and mine, so incredible, that I sued them for wrong allegations. To convince the judge what a bad journalist I am they sent in a huge pile of paper, and in this I found the document with the official answer of the Saudi Embassy to the „Spiegel“:


„Regarding your request from Aug. 27th 2003 on the alleged press-release of HRH Foreign Minister Prince Saud Al Faisal after his meeting with US-President George W.Bush on Sept 20th 2001, in which he is supposed to have said that five names on the FBI’s suspects-list had nothing to do with what happend, the Embassy of the Saudi Arabian Kingdom intimates, that HRH the Foreign Minister never gave such a statement and this means, that what is written in the book „Facts, Forgeries and the supressed evidence of 9-11“ lacks any foundation.“

(Copy of the document: http://www.broeckers.com/sb.html )


Thanks to the memory of the internet we can proof the opposite, the Saudi Foreign Minister indeed gave the statement „that five of the people listed had nothing to do with what happened“ on Sept. 20th – and thanks to the involuntary help of „Spiegel“ we can proof now, that two years later they officaly deny it entirely. Needless to say that this was no reason for the former leading news-magazin „Spiegel“ to look a bit closer at this mysterious denial. Why does the Saudi Secretary two years later deny that there had been errors in naming the suspects and he had dicussed this with Pres. Bush who had acknoleweged a certain „haste of publishing“? If errors happened in „haste“ and would have been corrected properly with the second FBI-list published a week later – why not simply state so? Why eliminate press-releases and deny given statements ? - Because until today the question of the true identity of the 19 hijackers is still totally unsolved – and the Bush- administration and the officials of the other countries involved do everything they can to keep it that way. If they succeed these 19 will stay there for ever and become history.


How can this happen, since we have a free press scrutinizing and controlling the statements, allegations and actions of our governements ? If you only look at this tiny example of the very basic question about the individuals who committed this crime you recognize, that such a media doesn’t exist anymore. With the collapse of the twin towers we have not only to be in mourning at the death of 3.000 innocent citizens, but also of the nearly total breakdown of the media's constitutional function in democratic societies as an instrument of power-control and critical investigation. The coverage of 9-11 shows, that mass-media is doing a perfect job if it comes to grave criminal activities like presidential sex with White House trainees, but if it comes to small sins like the 9-11-events and letting them happen, there had been (and still is) no investigative journalism at all. The mainstream-media has gone to rack and ruin and became a brothel of propaganda. Welcome to Brainwashington D.C. (...) "

http://www.broeckers.com/toronto.htm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mathias Broekers, I presume? Welcome to the forum! It's nice to have 1st-hand accounts from the ppl actually involved in the stories that we discuss, and I'd like to thank you for your rebuttal to the Spiegel piece, here.

Yup, www.archive.org's cache of that page from the Saudis does indeed state what you say:

http://web.archive.org/web/20011007135008/http://www.saudiembassy.net/press_release/01-spa/09-20-Saud2.htm
Quote:
PRINCE SAUD AL-FAISAL MEETS WITH U.S. PRESIDENT BUSH
September 20, 2001

Minister of Foreign Affairs Prince Saud Al-Faisal met with US President George W. Bush at the White House today. Following the meeting, Prince Saud gave assurances that the viewpoints of the two sides are identical in seeking to eradicate the scourge of terrorism from the world. In this context, he said, the aim is to find the criminals, who have no regard for human life, Muslim or non-Muslim. Pointing out that the recent terrorist acts are as much against the Islamic World as against the United States, he described the goal of international terrorism as driving a wedge between the Islamic World and all other civilized peoples. He stressed that Saudi Arabia and the United States are in full agreement on the need to combat that goal; it is a fact that it is not in the interest of Muslims to have a struggle among international groups.

Regarding the inclusion of Saudi names in the published list of the suspects, Prince Saud commented that haste in publishing the names of suspects has been acknowledged, and that it has been proven that five of the people listed had nothing to do with what happened, adding: "We very much hope that before being published, information, names and pictures will be verified."

With regard to the Middle East, Prince Saud said: "I was pleased to listen to President Bush saying, even before I started to discuss with him developments in the Middle East, that the United States would proceed with its follow-up of the Middle East peace process."

In response to a question on the Kingdom exerting effort to convince Afghanistan's ruling Taliban movement to extradite suspects, Prince Saud said Saudi Arabia has tried in the past but not succeeded, adding: "Now, we see Pakistan also using its good offices in this regard. We hope that the Taliban will be wise and surrender the culprits to face justice."


It *is* interesting, indeed that they would now go on to deny ever having said such a thing - like you say, surely they would have been better served by not doing this, as it only raises suspicions of why the obvious lie?

I'd also like to ask you what you think of the fairly recent developments in the cases of the identity of the hijackers, re:Atta's cocaine & stripper-fuelled stay in Florida, the huge heroin bust at his flight-school and the evidence that seems to point at the fact that Atta had a double that was being used in the US, prior to 9/11?

The fact that the media, within minutes of the disaster had photos of the hijackers and OBL plastered all over the place, whilst claiming that the hijackers had used stolen identities and that there were no Arabic names on the flight manifests is ample reason in itself to be highly suspicious of the official fairytale regarding 9/11, don't you think? Then again, I suppose it worked beautifully for Oswald re:JFK, so I reckon they probably thought why not re-use what has worked before?

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Mathias



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd also like to ask you what you think of the fairly recent developments in the cases of the identity of the hijackers, re:Atta's cocaine & stripper-fuelled stay in Florida, the huge heroin bust at his flight-school and the evidence that seems to point at the fact that Atta had a double that was being used in the US, prior to 9/11?


I admire Daniel Hopsicker for his multiple investigations in the "hijackers" live and sorrounding in Florida, he is one of the best 9/11-researchers at all - though I don't share his conclusions, that Atta & his boys were able to hijack and fly these plane all alone. One chapter in my second book is called "The hijacked hijackers" - it was written 2003 before the evidence on the wargames happening this morning came to public and it now seems even more convincing. Beside all the unislamic behavior of the guys, Atta opened a miles&more account at the airline a week before 9/11. These guys were not aware that they are going on a suicide mission. May be they wer tricked into these wargames as actors to make them more realistic ?
Obvious seems to me, that they were involved in a state-ran, Iran-Contra-style drugs,- weapons,- & terrorism -operation, therefore had protection from above, could move safely in the US & also could easy be used as patsies...

Regarding the doubles John Doe II at the team8+ Website has done a great study and it is safe to say that at least some of the "hijackers" must have had doubles - if not like ghosts the ability of bilocation.
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DeepLogos



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe there were two Atta's, but not in the sense of two physical persons. In my eyes there were one real Atta, who was probably employed in some official/ black budget capacity, and one "Atta" that we were fed in the media, both official mainstream and alternative mainstream. I further belive that this is a deliberate ploy set to obfuscate and mislead independent investigations into Atta himself and the aspects surronding him. In this capacity, Hopsicker plays directly into the creation and continuation of the dual aspects of Atta. Hopsicker also only goes so far as it pertains to what happened that day, which I have yet to understand, given that he has done such an extensive study into the patsies.

As I see it, there is no evidence that Atta, or anyone of the highjackers, boarded any of the flights, all though it may be reasonable to suspect that some of them did, given the CCTV video from Logan airport (though only slight resemblance). If they were on the planes, they may have been there in a capacity relating to drills or military exercises, or simply on their way somwhere. Cockpit recordings from flight 11 (of the "highjacker") seem to indicate that they were going back to the airport, which would reasonable to think if flight 11 was chosen to be part of the exerise (unknowingly), but Betty Ong's testimony via phone (if real) claims that a flight attendant had been stabbed and she named the seat one of the highjackers sat in. The flight manifesto shows none of the names of the highjackers. This whole thing reeks of scripting and deliberate confusion, as they only seem to "release" evidence that either supports the official story or adds to the confusion. In my eyes it is just as believable that Betty thought she was taking part in an exercise, maybe Atta too (or someone else we don't know the name of who actually entered the cockpit). Betty may have had her doubt about the validity of the exercise when maze was released into the cabin (if it indeed was).

As for the research into Atta /and the rest of the "highjackers", only two things are important; did he/they board the plane(s) beyond a reasonable doubt, and what was the nature of his/ their visit to the US and his reported contacts with official sources. In my eyes the answers are: 'No' and 'nobody seems to want to tell us', which to me indicates that they were watched, assigned, played and duped as parts of the "red team" of the excersises went live. The orgy of evidence waiting to be looked into by the press and the public is just too convenient, but given the general publics state of mind at the time it was all swallowed, hook-line-and-sinker style.

And remember, there has been no evidence released showing any ties to what is claimed. Pork-eating, booze-drinking, stripper-banging muslim fundamentalist pilots on a tight morning schedule heading towards the virgins of paradise is just a tad too much for me...

So I agree with you... they probably thought they were set to do someting entirely different than X had planned for them, and they knew that he and the others would soften ans spread the investigative focus and lay claim on too much resources.

-DL-

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macauleym



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mathias-

Thanks for sharing that information. It sure does look like a bald-faced lie by Der Spiegel. And their article only covers a few of the alleged hijackers, so even if their account is correct (I don't know if it is), there is still plenty of room for doubt -- especially when their credibility is tarnished by the apparent lie about the Saudi Foreign Minister's statement.

Continuity and DL, excuse me for being picky, but I can't help but notice a few exaggerations and distortions, which I'll correct (to the best of my knowledge).

Continuity wrote:
The fact that the media, within minutes of the disaster had photos of the hijackers and OBL plastered all over the place, whilst claiming that the hijackers had used stolen identities and that there were no Arabic names on the flight manifests is ample reason in itself to be highly suspicious of the official fairytale regarding 9/11, don't you think?

Photos of the hijackers plastered all over the place within minutes? Only if you count by the thousands. Or do you have an example? (OBL, yes, I believe his photo was up the same day.)

DeepLogos wrote:
The flight manifesto shows none of the names of the highjackers.

No Arabic names on the flight manifests? Can you point me to one of those manifests? (As far as I know, the manifests haven't been publicly released. CNN published passenger lists which explicitly excluded the alleged hijackers. The Boston Globe and the BBC published seating charts, including the alleged hijackers, for some of the flights. Questions remain, to be sure, but "no Arabs on the flight manifests" is a red herring, as far as I can tell.)

DeepLogos wrote:
This whole thing reeks of scripting and deliberate confusion

There is some of that, no doubt, but I believe there is also a degree of natural confusion as a result of sloppy research, uncritical reading, and what I'll call, for lack of a better term, the urban legend phenomenon. Sometimes rumors are true; often they're not. And if false rumors occur natural, it should be no surprise that there is some natural confusion in connection with 9/11.

The more careful we can all be about spreading known facts and shunning rumors, red herrings, and disinfo, the more we can reduce confusion and avoid contributing to it -- giving it wings, as it were.
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DeepLogos



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

macauleym wrote:
[No Arabic names on the flight manifests? Can you point me to one of those manifests? (As far as I know, the manifests haven't been publicly released. CNN published passenger lists which explicitly excluded the alleged hijackers. The Boston Globe and the BBC published seating charts, including the alleged hijackers, for some of the flights. Questions remain, to be sure, but "no Arabs on the flight manifests" is a red herring, as far as I can tell.)

Hi macauleym.

Thanks for pointing that out. I was refering to the passenger lists lists as given by many news sources, with passengers (non-highjackers] apearing and disappearing from them, new ones being added, etc, not the actual manifestos themselves, some of which didn't include the "highjackers" I stand corrected in that regard.

After writing the post I took a look at the documents released i after the Moussaoui trial, and I found the alleged manifestos (very poor quality, wich to me is strange). These maifestos include the "highjackers", at least a few that I can make out.


Flight 11:
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/docs/Flight11Manifest_a.jpg
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/docs/Flight11Manifest_b.jpg
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/docs/Flight11Manifest_c.jpg

Flight 175:
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/docs/Flight175Manifest_a.jpg

Flight 77:
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/docs/Flight77Manifest_a.jpg
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/docs/Flight77Manifest_b.jpg

Flight 93:
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/docs/Flight93Manifest_a_s.jpg

I understand that there are many red herrings out there, some of which I have swallowed, material released after the Moussaoui trial pointed to a few, but to my knoledge there is still no evidence that they actually highjacked the planes, except perhaps the rumored cockpit recording of Atta I have eluded to, if they dont have anything else up their sleeves.

regardless, the whole highjacker scenario as presented to us by both mainstream and some alternative sources just doesn't sit well with me.

Thanks again for pointing out weaknesses in my arguments. Reducing the "Atta scenario" to a few questions that we must demand answers to, has always been my goal.


-DL-

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