FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in 
WTC - The Tower Collapses
Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 14, 15, 16  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Next Level Forum Index -> 9/11 HardCorps Specifics Investigation
  ::  Previous topic :: Next topic  
Author Message
Fintan
Site Admin


Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 8166

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: WTC - The Tower Collapses Reply with quote

Reply to this topic with general evidence about the
nature of the World Trade Center Tower Collapses.


-------------------
S U M M A R Y
-------------------

A summary of the thread will be updated here as evidence
is presented in this topic.


Last edited by Fintan on Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
just0



Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 530

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:18 pm    Post subject: Controlled demolition? Reply with quote

I think we need to go through the collapse of both towers
and have some back and forth about the controlled demolition
hypothesis. I suspect that there is a lot of footage and
photography of the collapses that have been tampered with
floating about. So with this in mind I think it would be
worth while to take a look at the collapses by stepping back
and taking more of an overview of what we saw, I think it might
be easier for us to agree on what happened that way. I think it
would allow us to discuss ideas clearly without getting into
some details that may turn out to be planted/red-herrings.

Also, I'm not up to speed on all the latest controlled demolition
theories out there, "Thermite" and all that hooey.

I'd like to start by pointing out the difference between the
tower collapses and WTC7.

The footage we see of WTC7 collapsing shows clearly that the
base portion of the building was taken out allowing the entire
building to fall under its own weight. So taking out the support
from under the building allows for the rest of the building to
come down in a fluid motion. To most peoples satisfaction this
fits with what a controlled demolition should look like.

A lot has been said about how by looking at WTC7 we can see
the similarities and draw parralells reguarding controlled
demolitions being used for all three buildings. BUT....

The towers have a totally reversed appearance as they fall,
the bottom portions of the buildings seem to have absolutely
no loss of support as the towers crumble from top to bottom.
This is a truely unique form of controlled demolition if it
is even possible to take down a building in such a manner using
explosives of any sort....I dont know. But I do think this is
what our efforts shoud be focussed on in this thread for the
purposes of the investigation.

From looking at these two clearly different techniques being
used on 9-11, I suspect that WTC7 was demolished in the classic
style in order to lend credability to the theory that controlled
demolition must have taken out the towers, guilt by association.

Anyone have any ideas as to why it would be so difficult to take
the towers out in this "reverse control demolition" style?

_________________
~"“True observation begins when devoid of set patterns, and freedom of expression occurs when one is beyond systems.”"~
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just0 wrote:

The towers have a totally reversed appearance as they fall,
the bottom portions of the buildings seem to have absolutely
no loss of support as the towers crumble from top to bottom.
This is a truely unique form of controlled demolition if it
is even possible to take down a building in such a manner using
explosives of any sort....I dont know. But I do think this is
what our efforts shoud be focussed on in this thread for the
purposes of the investigation.

From looking at these two clearly different techniques being
used on 9-11, I suspect that WTC7 was demolished in the classic
style in order to lend credability to the theory that controlled
demolition must have taken out the towers, guilt by association.


Excellent points. I'm beginning to think 'lump-a-bility' might have been a major reason 7 was taken out, along with Peter Jenning's helpful commentary.

WTC 7 was obviously 'presented' to us as a classic controlled demolition to lend credence to 'classic controlled demo' theory of the towers. Even Larry's "Pull it" seems to 'support' controlled demo operations in progress on that day.

I agree that WTC 7's demise is being 'lumped in' with the towers to support the controlled demo theory.

Yes, WTC 7 looked to me like a classic controlled demolition.

The collapse of the towers looked like something I've never seen before or since. I think it's a good idea to explore these differences.

I remember a lot of discussion regarding the pyroclastic flow resulting from the towers collapse. Now, from what I remember, the pryroclastic flow from the towers was that grey cloud that really hugged the streets and looked totally thick and bizarre.

I don't remember the same kind of debris cloud from 7, but I wasn't there, and it wasn't as well photographed. If the demolitions were of a different type, they would produce differing 'flows'.

Now, I was checking out the evidence at this potentially fake site, 911 Eyewitness, and I noticed that here, the pyroclastic flow argument is presented in reference to WTC 7 as well.

First, the towers-

Quote:

The calliflower shape of the dust clouds is characteristic of pyroclastic flows as seen in the eruption of Mount St. Augustine and also at the WTC in NYC. Massive amounts of explosive energy are required to generate these clouds of rising debris. The heat generated by high-power explosives used in controlled demolitions can approximate the heat of a small eruption. The cold tower steel and concrete simply falling to the ground cannot generate the necessary heat or pulverized concrete dust and debris.


From: 911 Eyewitness - DVD Content Samples
http://www.911eyewitness.com/samples/staugustpyro.php


Then 7-
Quote:

The controlled demolition of Seven World Trade generated a pyroclastic flow that moved rapidly through the streets. In this segment, Mount Pinatubo¹s pyroclastic flow is featured in the lower left corner of the screen to illustrate the nature of its fluid motion. Side by side comparison with Seven World Trade provides clear evidence that high-power explosives in the building generated the necessary Heat, Dust and Debris to create a pyroclastic flow.


From: 911 Eyewitness - DVD Content Samples
http://www.911eyewitness.com/samples/flowwtc7.php


The photo evidence for the towers looks like a no brainer - it looks just like the referenced volcano picture. The photo evidence for WTC 7, however, isn't as convincing, and yet the accompanying text is way more insistent about controlled demolition and explosives.

First, the tower photos of the 'flow' are presented to evidence explosives - then the distant footage of WTC 7 is used to evidence 'classic' demolition technology in action, which is then used to support the assumption that the towers were 'another' example of classic demo.

That 'classic demolition' theory may still prove to be technically 'incorrect' regardless of the technology behind WTC 7's demise.

Sounds like a double reverse lump-o-rama to me. I think you're on to something.

Anybody know of any good comparisons between the debris clouds generated by the towers and 7?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fintan
Site Admin


Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 8166

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject: Dust & Video Reply with quote

Great points Just0. And I'll echo Jerry's xclnt reply.

Some mid-distance video shots of the tower collapses would be good.
Anybody got good photo/video links, PM me and I'll post a compilation.

Even before Silverstein's red herring "pull it" comment, we wrote in our
second 9/11 article that "Controlled Demolition" Inc. were in charge of
the WTC site clearance. How in your face is that?

Yeah, like we get the hint! Ok. Smile

Never been happy with the classic Controlled Demo theory. Especially as
the CIA Fakes have been bleating relentlessly on about it -so that the meme
is now deeply entrenched among the drones.

Thermite is crap --messy, uneven, uncoordinatible for demo purposes.
Classic demo charges? Miles of wire, months to do, masses of explosives.
And nobody noticed 'em wiring both towers? Eh? Come onnnn.

Yeah, this was something special.

Meanwhile, here's some links on the dust.

Quote:
World Trade Center Dust
Settled Dust Aerosol From the Pulverized Towers

Within one minute of the North Tower's collapse, the mammoth cloud of thick dust engulfed most of the southern end of Manhattan. See other photographs of the dust clouds.

When the South Tower and then the North Tower exploded they each produced vast clouds of dust that first so attenuated the sunlight on the streets below that witnesses described a pitch-black environment. They then settled, covering virtually every surface with fine, penetrating dust. The dust permeated the insides of buildings, and contaminated air conditioning systems, necessitating lengthy decontamination procedures.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/dust.html

New York Microscopic Society Report

Quote:
Microscopic analysis of WTC dust by Nicholas Petraco, BS, MS, DABC, FAAFS, FNYMS at The New York Microscopic Society lecture held at AMNH 28 May 2003

45.1% Fiberglass, rock wool (insulation, fireproofing)
31.8% Plaster (gypsum), concrete products (calcium sulfate, selenite, muscodite)
7.1% Charred wood and debris
2.1% Paper fibers
2.1% Mica flakes
2.0% Ceiling tiles (fiberglass component)
2.0% Synthetic fibers
1.4% Glass fragments
1.3% Human remains
1.4% Natural fibers
trace asbestos (it became illegal to use during the construction of the WTC)

Other trace elements: aluminum, paint pigments, blood, hair, glass wool with resin, and prescription drugs were found.

NOTES:
Particles found were 1-4 micrometers in size. (In general, particles that are 5-8 microns are irritants, and those that are 104 microns are small enough to be airborne and ingested into the lungs.)

Fiberglass particles are smaller than asbestos and lodge deeper into lungs creating more serious long-term health hazards than asbestos like white lung disease which will become more evident 5, 10, 20 years from 11 Sep 2001.


Comment:
While dramatic, I don't think this sample analysis is quite correct. Considering the structure of the towers there was a large amount of silcates from all the glass as well as the fiber glass materials (insulation, ceiling tiles). Much of the dust generated in the WTC collapse was crushed and pulverized gypsum (from drywall) and concrete. Asbestos and vaporized metals were negligible. Combustion particulates were high but, not dangerously so for very long. There were indeed human remains found in some of the samples collected but, (and as incredibly sad and disturbing) these were not that common; nothing like 1.3 percent of a bulk samples. The bodies of these 3000 murdered people would not add up to a fraction of a percent of the thousands of tons of debris.

Comment:
Nicholas Petraco is a well-known NYPD forensic scientist (think CSI); I'm not saying he couldn't do this kind of analysis, but it seems more likely that his name was picked from a newspaper. Google shows only two hits for the "New York Microscopic Society"; both refer to an event in 1948.

http://www.janegalt.net/blog/archives/004194.html


Environmental Studies of the World Trade Center area after the September 11, 2001 attack.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/index.html

Chemical compositions of the WTC dusts and girder coating material
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/chem1/index.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
atm



Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 3862

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does Oliver Stone ( http://www.wtcmovie.com ) allude to bombs being in the towers?

This from Jones & Watson:

'Despite minority opposition to the movie it seems that Stone has at the very least included representations of explosions in the towers that firefighters went on the record as having heard.'

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/010806worldtradecenter.htm

Nicolas Cage et al hear multiple booms, they look up, they wonder, they say nothing: they remain mute.

Fintan is of the opinion that the controlled demoltion theory is far too convenient. I am inclined to agree. Controlled Demoltion Inc. cleaned up after the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building was bombed; Controlled Demoltion Inc. cleaned up after the WTC attack.

http://www.controlled-demolition.com
http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqMode=1&reqLocId=7&reqItemId=20030317124730

To quote Fintan:

'Never been happy with the classic Controlled Demo theory. Especially as the CIA Fakes have been bleating relentlessly on about it -so that the meme is now deeply entrenched among the drones.'

So is this Fake bait to bolster the 'controlled demoltion' [disinfo?] meme?

If we accept that the 'classic Controlled Demo theory' is a red herring the question then becomes: if it wasn't a 'controlled demoltion' -- if that seems far too suspect, too convenient an explanation -- what on Earth did bring WTCs 1 & 2 down? Or is the question in and of itself irrelevant to the investigation? Should we even be including it in our terms of reference?

It's an important point: do we pursue this line of inquiry or not? How will we ever know beyond reasonable doubt or on the (lesser) balance of probabilities?

atm Question

[I have posted this under the Oliver Stone thread too.]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

atm wrote:
If we accept that the 'classic Controlled Demo theory' is a red herring the question then becomes: if it wasn't a 'controlled demoltion' -- if that seems far too suspect, too convenient an explanation -- what on Earth did bring WTCs 1 & 2 down?


We could email Col. Bearden...Wink

hehe.

Fintan wrote:
Classic demo charges? Miles of wire, months to do, masses of explosives.
And nobody noticed 'em wiring both towers? Eh? Come onnnn.

Yeah, this was something special.


Ok. Here's one.

One thing made obvious by the existence of the fakes is that this caper was planned at least a few years in advance. It appears there was some serious alt media setup to reel in the frightened sheep - in some cases, entire conspiracy careers built up before being unleashed on the post 911 internet.

We also know this G8 crew, who appear to be the operative guilty power structure, got a huge leg up in global economic control thanks to the 'energy crisis' of 1973 which came about due to 'instability' in the Middle East involving Israel. Go figger.

Were still living in this G8 'War for Oil' OPEC era that began in earnest, well, right as the towers were being built.

What if this caper was planned back then too, in order to finish a process begun in the early seventies?

What if the building's demolition was somehow built into its infrastfructure?

What if it was built 'wired'?

Perhaps, being the tallest buildings in the world at the time, this additional feature was justified to the curious as an insurance 'fail safe' to protect the surrounding buildings in the event of fire or whatever. Better to be able to 'take em down' than destroy all of lower manhattan.

Insurance liability could explain why the occupants of the towers were never told they were working in a 'wired' building. After a few years this construction 'secret' would be forgotten about.

Yeah, I'm nuts, but weren't they built by Rockefellers? Them boys have been knee deep in NWO ops long before the seventies. Didn't they make their fortune through ruthless monopolizing of petroleum resources?

In 93 the FBI already considered the towers a safe stage for intel/terror/psyop theater. These guys like a home field advantage.

Didn't the war on terror officially begin when these towers collapsed?

Didn't they bear an eerie resemblance to 'Solomon's Towers' and a giant number eleven? Doesn't it seem like somehow their days were always numbered?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
atm



Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 3862

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry

that's one collosal timeline that you are proposing and it stacks up date-wise, in a conspiratorial kind of way. But where is the proof? We need proof not more supposition. Without proof we become the pod-people Mk2. Or to put it more abstractly, we shouldn't be looking for the smoking gun (it ain't smoking anymore): we should be looking for the spent cartridges, but they were sold to China. So where to begin? Where to begin...

atm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stallion4



Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 692

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

World Trade Center Demolition Quotes

    -NEW YORK TIMES ‘ORAL HISTORIES’ - WTC TASK FORCE INTERVIEWS
    ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GREGORY
    Interview Date: October 3, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110008.PDF

    pgs 14-16: I know I was with an officer from Ladder 146, a Lieutenant Evangelista, who ultimately called me up a couple of days later just to find out how I was. We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.

    Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?

    A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.
    I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building coming down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever. But it's just strange that two people sort of say the same thing and neither one of us talked to each other about it. …


    Q. On the television pictures it appeared as well, before the first collapse, that there was an explosion up on the upper floors.

    A. I know about the explosion on the upper floors. This was like eye level. I didn't have to go like this. Because I was looking this way. I'm not going to say it was on the first floor or the second floor, but somewhere in that area I saw to me what appeared to be flashes. I don't know how far down this was already. I mean, we had heard the noise but, you know, I don't know.


    -CAPTAIN KARIN DESHORE Interview Date: November 7, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110192.PDF

    pg 10: I had no clue what was going on. Never turned around because a sound came from somewhere that I never heard before. Some people compared it with an airplane. It was the worst sound of a rolling sound, not a thunder. I can’t explain it, what it was. All I know is -- and a force started to come hit me in my back. I can’t explain it. You had to be there. All I know is I had to run because I thought there was an explosion.

    pg 11: Whatever this explosion was simply sucked all the oxygen out of the air.

    pg 15: Somewhere around the middle of the world trade center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building. I went inside and I told everybody that the other building or there was an explosion occurring up there and I said I think we have another major explosion…

    pg 16: So here these explosions are getting bigger and louder and bigger and louder…

    pgs 17-18: Again, I didn’t see what was happening behind me, but knowing of all the explosions I thought here was another explosion coming and this sound again and this wave of this force again. I just jumped on the boat, closed the door with my left hand and just sank down to my knees. Here whatever it was just came right at us again.


    -DEPUTY COMMISSIONER THOMAS FlTZPATRlCK Interview Date: October 1, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110001.PDF

    pgs 13-14: We looked up at the building straight up, we were that close. All we saw was a puff of smoke coming from about 2 thirds of the way up. Some people thought it was an explosion. I don't think I remember that. I remember seeing, it looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building. I assume now that that was either windows starting to collapse like tinsel or something. Then the building started to come down. My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV.


    -FDNY recall "detonations" in South Tower:

    fireman2: We made it outside, we made it about a block.
    fireman1: We made it at least 2 blocks.
    fireman2: 2 blocks.
    fireman1: and we started runnin'
    fireman2: poch-poch-poch-poch-poch-poch-poch
    fireman1: Floor by floor it started poppin' out ..
    fireman2: It was as if as if they had detonated, det..
    fireman1: yea detonated yea
    fireman2: as if they had planned to take down a building,
    boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom ...
    fireman1: All the way down, I was watchin it, and runnin'
    Video: http://www.prisonplanet.tv/discussion_in_firehouse.mpg


    -NEW YORK TIMES ‘ORAL HISTORIES’ - WTC TASK FORCE INTERVIEWS
    FIREFIGHTER EDWARD CACHIA
    Interview Date: December 6, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110251.PDF

    pg 5: As my officer and I were looking at the south tower, it just gave. It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit, because we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.


    -PARAMEDIC DANIEL RIVERA Interview Date: OCTOBER 10 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110035.PDF

    pg 9: It was a frigging noise. At first I thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear “pop, pop, pop, pop, pop”? That’s exactly what -- because I thought it was that. When I heard that frigging noise, that’s when I saw the building coming down.


    -FIREFIGHTER KENNETH ROGERS Interview Date: December 10, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110290.PDF

    pgs 3-4: … then there was an explosion in the south tower, which according to this map, this exposure just blew out in flames. A lot of guys left at that point. I kept watching. Floor after floor after floor. One floor under another after another and when it hit about the fifth floor, I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93.


    -LIEUTENANT GEORGE J. DeSIMONE Interview Date: October 22, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110129.PDF

    pg 6: The next thing I know, we heard a little bit of a rumbling, and then white powder came from the first collapsed building. I thought it was an explosion initially.

    pgs 7-8: After that, I still thought it was an explosion. I thought it was some kind of thermal explosion where I'm either going to get burnt -- and I had kind of ideas that it was going to be something like Hiroshima where all this heat was coming at me and we were going to get burnt -- or if the heat didn't burn me, I thought that all the parts coming out of this building, the windows, metal, all the things like that, that I might be severed in half.


    pg 10: I don't think we understood the magnitude of what was going on. I was fearful that there were bombs in the building. That was my first thought, being the military kind of guy that I am.


    -FATHER JOHN DELENDICK Interview Date: December 6, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110230.PDF

    pgs 5-6: I remember asking Ray Downey was it the jet fuel that blew up. He said at that point he thought there were bombs up there because it was too even. As we've since learned, it was the jet fuel that was dropping down that caused all this. But he said it was too even.

    Q. Symmetrical?
    A. So his original thought was that he thought it was a bomb up there as well.


    -NBC Reporter, Pat Dawson: “[Albert Turi] the Chief of Safety of the Fire Department of New York City told me he received word of the possibility of a secondary device, that is another bomb going off. He tried to get his men out as quickly as he could, but he said there was another explosion which took place. …That his theory he thinks that there were actually devices that were planted in the building.” Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.reporter.1.wmv


    -NEW YORK TIMES ‘ORAL HISTORIES’ - WTC TASK FORCE INTERVIEWS
    FIREFIGHTER TIMOTHY JULIAN
    Interview Date: December 26, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110386.PDF

    pg 10: … right when we got to the corner of Washington and Albany, that’s when I heard the building collapse. First I thought it was an explosion. I thought maybe there was a bomb on the plane, but delayed type of thing, you know, secondary device. I was convinced for a week it was secondary devices. … You know, and I just heard like an explosion and a then a cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down…


    -LIEUTENANT ROBERT DORRITIE Interview Date: December 11, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110299.PDF

    pg 4: … we were deciding which way to go into the south tower. That's when I looked up, and the tower started coming down, which at the time I said I thought it was a secondary device. I had warned the guys about secondary devices on the way down and to be careful of that.


    -FIREFIGHTER TIMOTHY BURKE Interview Date: January 22, 2002
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110488.PDF

    pg 8: Then the building popped, lower than the fire, which learned was I guess, the aviation fuel fell into the pit, and whatever floor it fell on heated up really bad and that’s why it popped at that floor. That’s the rumor I heard. But it seemed like I was going oh, my god, there is a secondary device because the way the building popped thought it was an explosion.


    -FIRE MARSHAL JOHN COYLE Interview Date: December 28, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110406.PDF

    pg 8: The tower was -- it looked to me – I thought it was exploding, actually. That’s what I thought for hours afterwards, that it had exploded or the plane or there had been some device on the plane that had exploded, because the debris from the tower had shot out far over our heads. It was raining down.

    pgs 15-16: While I was down at Battery Park, I finally got through on my phone to my father and said, “I’m alive. I just wanted to tell you, go to church, I’m alive. I just so narrowly escaped this thing.” He said, “where were you? You were there?” I said, “yeah, I was right there when it blew up.” He said, “you were there when the planes hit?” I said, “no, I was there when it exploded, the building exploded.” He said, “you mean, when it fell down?” I said, “no, when it exploded.” I still didn’t realized what had happened. I totally thought it had been blown up. That’s just the perspective of looking up at it, it seemed to have exploded out. But that I guess was the force of the upper stories collapsing down.


    -FIREFIGHTER ANGEL RIVERA Interview Date: January 22, 2002
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110489.PDF

    pgs 4-5: We were there about ten minutes before the chief told us go to the Marriott Hotel, go from the 14th floor up, search and evacuate all the floors. So we walk all the way up, no problem. Then we hear the explosion and debris falling. We were looking out of the windows and see body parts all over the place. It was scary. It was very sad. We searched 14, 15, went in one lobby, we came out the other way, we went in one stairway, came up -- when we hit the 19th floor, something horrendous happened. It was like a bomb went off. We thought we were dead. The whole building shook. The brick coming out of -- the door to the hallway into the hotel blew off like somebody had thrown it all over the place. It shook all over the place. We were thrown on the floor. We looked inside the lobby after everything calmed down, and everything was collapsed. The building was still shaking and we're still hearing explosions going on everywhere, so we decided let's get out of here. After we decided to get out of there, we dropped everything. We had a roof rope; we dropped it. We didn't think about retaining our tools. We just wanted to get out of there. We ran all the way down to the fourth floor where we ran out of stairs. There were no more stairs.

    pg 7: Mike Mullan walked one flight up, and then the most horrendous thing happened. That's when hell came down. It was like a huge, enormous explosion. I still can hear it. Everything shook. Everything went black. The wind rushed, very slowly [sound], all the dust, all the -- and everything went dark.

    pg 9: When the second tower came down, we had no idea what was going on. We thought another plane, another bomb, another as a second device. We thought, this is it, we are dead.


    -MSNBC Reporter, Rick Sanchez: "… Police have found what they describe as a suspicious device, and they fear that it might be something that could lead to another explosion...I spoke with some police officials moments ago, Chris, and they told me that they have reason to believe that one of the explosions at the WTC aside from the ones that may have been caused by the impact of the plane with the building, may have been caused by a van that was parked in the building that may have had some type of explosive device in it. So, their fear here is that there may have been explosive devices planted either in the building or in the adjacent area ..."
    Video: http://www.terrorize.dk/911/comments/911.wtc.police.found.explosives.wmv


    -WTC Worker: “…we stuck on the stairs for a while, we finally got down to the lobby. Then we get to the lobby, there’s this big explosion.” Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.lobby.big.explosion.wmv


    -NEW YORK TIMES ‘ORAL HISTORIES’ - WTC TASK FORCE INTERVIEWS
    BATTALION CHIEF DOMINICK DeRUBBIO
    Interview Date: October 12, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110064.PDF

    pg 5: It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion, but I guess it was just the floors starting to pancake one on top of the other.


    -ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER JAMES DRURY Interview Date: October 16, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110098.PDF

    pg 6: We were in the process of getting some rigs moved when I turned, as I heard a tremendous roar, explosion, and saw that the first of the two towers was starting to come down.

    pg 7: That was the north tower now coming down. I should say that people in the street and myself included thought that the roar was so loud that the explosive - bombs were going off inside the building. Obviously we were later proved wrong.

    pg 12: As I said I thought the terrorists planted explosives somewhere in the building. That's how loud it was, crackling explosive, a wall.


    -FIREFIGHTER JOHN MALLEY Interview Date: December 12, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110319.PDF

    pg 5: I felt the rumbling, and then I felt the force coming at me. I was like, what the hell is that? In my mind it was a bomb going off. The pressure got so great, I stepped back behind the columns separating the revolving doors. Then the force just blew past me. It blew past me it seemed for a long time. In my mind I was saying what the hell is this and when is it going to stop? Then it finally stopped, that pressure which I thought was a concussion of an explosion. It turns out it was the down pressure wind of the floors collapsing on top of each other.

    pg 6: There were secondary explosions, I don't know, aerosol cans or whatever. But we're in the darkness. We see basically the glow of a flashlight and still things coming down. The noise, the explosions, whatever it was.


    -CAPTAIN JAY SWITHERS Interview Date: October 30, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110172.PDF

    pg 5: I took a quick glance at the building and while I didn't see it falling, I saw a large section of it blasting out, which led me to believe it was just an explosion. I thought it was a secondary device, but I knew that we had to go.


    -MSNBC Reporter, Ann Thompson: "At 10:30 I tried to leave the building, but as soon as I got outside I heard a second explosion and another rumble and more smoke and more dust. I ran inside the building and the chandelier shook and again black smoke filled the air. Within another five minutes we were covered again with more soot and more dust. And then a fire marshal came in and said we had to leave, because if there was a third explosion this building might not last."
    Video: http://www.terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.ann.thompson.intermediate.explosions.wmv


    -Reporter: “… there was an explosion. It was way up where the fire was.. and the whole building, at that point, bellied out in flames…”Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.reporter.2.wmv


    -NEW YORK TIMES ‘ORAL HISTORIES’ - WTC TASK FORCE INTERVIEWS
    LIEUTENANT GREGG HANSSON
    Interview Date: October 9, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110017.PDF

    pg 15: Then a large explosion took place. In my estimation that was the tower coming down, but at that time I did not know what that was. I thought some type of bomb had gone off.


    -FIREFIGHTER WILLIAM REYNOLDS Interview Date: December 11, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110288.PDF

    pgs 3-4: After a while, and I don't know how long it was, I was distracted by a large explosion from the south tower and it seemed like fire was shooting out a couple of hundred feet in each direction, then all of a sudden the top of the tower started coming down in a pancake. …

    Q. … where was the fire? Like up at the upper levels where it started collapsing?
    A. It appeared somewhere below that. Maybe twenty floors below the impact area of the plane. I saw it as fire and when I looked at it on television afterwards, it doesn't appear to show the fire. It shows a rush of smoke coming out below the area of the plane impact. The reason why I think the cameras didn't get that image is because they were a far distance away and maybe I saw the bottom side where the plane was and the smoke was up above it.

    pg 8: So we kind of just all were walking around dazed and I ran into a Battalion Chief. I don't know who he was. I said to him, I said, "Chief, they're evacuating the other building; right?" … Before the north tower fell. He said, "No." I said, "Why not? They blew up the other one." I thought they blew it up with a bomb. I said, "If they blew up the one, you know they're gonna blow up the other one." He said, "No, they're not." I said, "Well, you gotta tell them to evacuate it, because it's gonna fall down and you gotta get the guys out."


    -FIREFIGHTER THOMAS TURILLI Interview Date: January 17, 2002
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110501.PDF

    pgs 4-5: … sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight, and then just a huge wind gust just came.


    -FIREFIGHTER KEITH MURPHY Interview Date: December 5, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110238.PDF

    pgs 19-20: I had heard right before the lights went out, I had heard distant boom boom boom, sounded like three explosions. I don’t know what it was. At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. I hear someone say oh, shit, that was just for the lights out. I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in tunnel with the train coming at you. It sounded like nothing I had ever heard in my life, but it didn’t sound good. All of a sudden I could feel the floor started to shake and sway. We were being thrown like literally off our feet, side to side, getting banged around and then a tremendous a wind started to happen. It probably lasted maybe 15 seconds, 10 to 15 seconds. It seemed like hurricane force wind. It would blow you off your feet and smoke and debris and more things started falling.


    -EMT MICHAEL OBER Interview Date: October 16, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110093.PDF

    pgs 4-5: Then we heard a rumble, some twisting metal, we looked up in the air, and to be totally honest, at first, I don’t know exactly…but it looked to me just like an explosion. It didn’t look like the building was coming down, it looked like just one floor had blown completely outside of it. I was sitting there looking at it. I just never thought they would ever come down, so I didn’t think they were coming down.



    -War Corespondent, Jack Kelley: "…Apparently what appears to happen was that at the same time two planes hit the building that there... that the FBI most likely thinks that there was a car or truck packed with explosives underneath the buildings which also exploded at the same time, and brought both of them down..."
    Video: http://www.terrorize.dk/911/comments/911.wtc.truck.bombs.fbi.jack.kelley.rm


    -Terrorism Security Expert (used by many news organizations): “We’ve heard reports of secondary explosions after the aircraft impacted, whether in fact there wasn't something else at the base of the towers that in fact were the coup de grace to bring them to the ground.”
    Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/comments/911.wtc.secondary.explosions.jeffrey.beatty.wmv



    -NEW YORK TIMES ‘ORAL HISTORIES’ - WTC TASK FORCE INTERVIEWS
    LIEUTENANT NEIL BROSNAN
    Interview Date: December 12, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110328.PDF

    pgs 8-9: Actually the explosion came in through those doors and came up behind the way I had come in. And I realized that, that the explosion came from the way had just left.

    pg 20: They observed the explosion and the hallway disappeared. They thought the hallway blew up where I had come from.


    -FIREFIGHTER RICHARD BANACISKI Interview Date: December 6, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110253.PDF

    pgs 3-4: We were there I don't know, maybe 10, 15 minutes and then I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions. Everybody just said run and we all turned around and we ran into the parking garage because that's basically where we were. Running forward would be running towards it. Not thinking that this building is coming down. We just thought there was going to be a big explosion, stuff was going to come down.


    -EMT JULIO MARRERO Interview Date: October 25, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110162.PDF

    pg 4: I heard a loud bang. We looked up, and we just saw the building starting to collapse.

    pg 5: I was screaming from the top of my lungs, and I must have been about ten feet away from her and she couldn't even hear me, because the building was so loud, the explosion, that she couldn't even hear me.


    -FIREFIGHTER CRAIG CARLSEN Interview Date: January 25, 2002
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110505.PDF

    pg 6: I guess about three minutes later you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. At the time I didn't realize what it was. We realized later after talking and finding out that it was the floors collapsing to where the plane had hit.


    -ABC Reporter: …the entire building has just collapsed as if a demolition team set off....”
    Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/comments/911.abc.demolition.team.wmv


    -Witness: "I was about five blocks away when I heard explosions... three thuds and turned around to see the building that we just got out of... tip over and fall in on itself."Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.witness.1.wmv


    -Witness: "...and then all of a sudden it started like... it sounded like gunfire... you know, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and then all of a sudden three big explosions. "
    Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.witness.2.wmv



    -NEW YORK TIMES ‘ORAL HISTORIES’ - WTC TASK FORCE INTERVIEWS
    SUPERVISING FIRE MARSHAL JOHN D. LYNN
    Interview Date: December 27, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110389.PDF

    pg 3: It's hard to deal with the time frame, but it seems as if suddenly there was a -- our attention was drawn to the south tower. There was some kind of explosion, you might say, up in the area where the fire was. Actually, in hindsight, that was the start of the collapse. Now, we were very close at that time.


    -BATTALION CHIEF JOHN SUDNIK Interview Date: November 7, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110198.PDF

    pg 4: Then we heard a loud explosion or what sounded like a loud explosion and looked up and I saw tower two start coming down.



    -FDNY: "As we were getting our gear on and making our way to the stairway, there was a heavy duty explosion."

    Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/heavy.duty.explosion.wmv


    -Street Reporter: "45 minutes into the taping that we were doing, there was… an explosion. It was way up where the fire was, and the whole building… at that point… bellied out… in flames… and everybody ran."
    Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.reporter.2.wmv


    -9/11 Hero William Rodriguez: says explosions before airplanes hit: (INN World Report - 15 Minute Interview)
    Video: http://www.911proof.com/resources/innrodriguesisdnsept05snow.wmv


    -FDNY ”There’s a bomb in the building, start clearing out.”
    Video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4574366633014832928


    -NEW YORK TIMES ‘ORAL HISTORIES’ - WTC TASK FORCE INTERVIEWS
    LIEUTENANT PATRICK SCARINGELLO
    Interview Date: October 10, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110030.PDF

    pg 4: I heard the explosion from up above. I looked up, I saw smoke and flame and then I saw the top tower tilt, start to twist and lean.


    -FIREFIGHTER CHRISTOPHER FENYO Interview Date: December 11, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110295.PDF

    pg 3: There was an explosion at the top of the Trade Center and a piece of Trade Center flew across the West Side Highway and hit the Financial Center.

    pg 5: About a couple minutes after George came back to me is when the south tower from our perspective exploded from about midway up the building.

    pgs 6-7: At that point a debate began to rage because the perception was that the building looked like it had been taken out with charges. We had really no concept of the damage on the east side of 2 World Trade Center at that point, and at that point many people had felt that possibly explosives had taken out 2 World Trade…


    -LIEUTENANT GARY GATES Interview Date: October 12, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110065.PDF

    pgs 6-7: I looked up, and the building exploded., the building that we were very close to, which was one tower.The whole top came off like a volcano


    -FIREFIGHTER KEVIN MURRAY: Interview Date: October 9, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110020.PDF

    pg 15: When the tower started -- there was a big explosion that I heard and someone screamed that it was coming down and I looked away and I saw all the windows domino -- you know, dominoeing up and then come down.


    -FDNY: "We were trying to get some of the people out, but then there was secondary explosions and then subsequent collapses..." Video: http://www.911blimp.net/videos/FDNY-explosions.mov



    -NEW YORK TIMES ‘ORAL HISTORIES’ - WTC TASK FORCE INTERVIEWS
    FIREFIGHTER RICHARD BOERI
    Interview Date: December 10, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110302.PDF

    pg 4: We had our backs to the tower and under that pedestrian bridge walking south, myself, Eddie Kennedy and the officer, when you heard the crackling. You looked up and you saw the one floor explode on itself and the top start to slide.


    -LT. THOMAS PIAMBINO Interview Date: January 24, 2002
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110493.PDF

    pg 5: The south tower had fallen, but at that time I didn't know what it was. All I heard was a tremendous explosion. The tower I was in shook really bad. It really shook bad, and my opinion, I thought it was another aircraft that hit the building.

    pgs 9-10: We started to go north on West Street as fast as we could. We weren't running, but we were moving, walking pretty fast, and then the north tower started to fall, and my perception was that when I looked back at the tower as it was starting to come down -- I was booking -- was that there was -- I thought it exploded, and I didn't realize it had collapsed. It looked to me like an explosion, and you could feel the -- you could feel it coming, and they were still running away from it. I mean, you weren't going to out run it. At that point, we all split up. I mean, it was like run, and each one of us took refuge behind something, and I wound up taking refuge behind an ESU truck, I believe it was, a Police Department ESU truck, I think, and I just rode it out until first there was the explosion or the concussion, and then there was very, very strong wind, and then there was the black -- black -- dirt black cloud, and you couldn't see nothing, and it became very, very quiet…


    -FIREFIGHTER FRANK SWEENEY Interview Date: October 18, 2001
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110113.PDF

    pg 9: I hear what sounded like firecrackers and a low rumble. I look up, and the south tower – I could see the top part of the siding overlapping the bottom side of the siding..



    -FIREFIGHTER KEVIN GORMAN Interview Date: January 9, 2002
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110434.PDF

    pg 6: … I heard the explosion, looked up, and saw like three floors explode, saw the antenna coming down, and turned around and ran north.


Related:


BBC News Footage Captures Audio of Explosions BEFORE Tower falls!


Below is a video clip from the BBC, in which the sound of explosions can be heard seconds BEFORE the North Tower falls down:



Click link to watch BBC video posted on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJBEoThPUf8&search=BBC%20Footage%20Mentions%20Explosion

Click here for downloadable version:
http://www.911podcasts.com/display.php?vid=123




(If possible, please watch and listen to the BBC footage a few times for yourself before reading my analysis below. I recommend wearing headphones when watching/listening to this video clip. If you don't have headphnes, turn the volume all the way up on your speakers. HINT: Listen very closely once the motorcycle drives past the person being interviewed)




--------------------------------------------




Thunderous booms can be heard just after the "motorcycle" drives past the man being interviewed (Stephen Evans) -- and then after the booms occur, you hear bystanders say "Oh my GOD!" while looking and pointing toward the North Tower. A few seconds after that, there's another explosion -- the person being interviewed then covers his ears in a fright and turns around to see the tower begin to fall.

(FYI: The camera that recorded this audio evidence of explosions was obviously some distance away from the North Tower (my best guesstimate is about 3/4 of a mile away) creating a sound delay, so the explosions would have occurred a couple of seconds earlier than what is represented in the video)

Here's a partial transcript of the interview:

    Stephen Evans: "...someone said they saw an airliner go into one of those towers. Then... I don't know... an hour later than that, we heard that big explosion from much, much lower. I don't know what on earth caused that...

    (Motorcycle drives past Stephen Evans)

    (((BOOOOOOOOM)))

    Bystanders: "Oh my GOD! (pointing and looking in the direction of the North Tower)

    (((BOOOOOOOOM)))

    Stephen Evans: "...People were just talking to each other, nodding their heads... (stops talking and raises hands up to ears in a fright. Screams are heard from the people standing in the street as more explosions occur -- and the North Tower begins to fall.)



And just to clarify, the South Tower had already fallen when this interview took place -- and that is what Stephen Evans is referencing when he said:

"Then... I don't know... an hour later than that, we heard that big explosion from much, much lower. I don't know what on earth caused that...

^so he heard a "big explosion from much, much lower"? Hmmmmm? Probably just a transformer; right? LOL.

S4

PS. Remember to wear headphones while watching the BBC footage...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stallion4



Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 692

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some extremely telling trivia for ya...

Anyone care to guess when the media began pushing the "pancake" theory?


Quote:
09/12/2001 - Updated 11:12 PM ET

Extreme heat, 'pancaking' doom towers into rubble

By David Lieberman, USA TODAY


NEW YORK — Strange as it sounds, the World Trade Center towers lived up to engineers' hopes in the moments after two hijacked jets slammed into their upper floors Tuesday morning. The north tower remained standing for more than an hour and a half after it was hit by American Airlines Flight 11. The south tower held on for almost an hour after it suffered more serious damage from the impact of United Airlines Flight 175. The buildings withstood the impact of 400,000-pound Boeing 767s crashing into them at perhaps more than 300 mph.

"They rocked back and forth, and then stopped," says Masoud Sanayei, professor of civil and environmental engineering at Tufts University. "If there was no fire, we might have demolished the buildings a year or so down the road but people would have had an opportunity to evacuate."

But there were fires, fed by the estimated 60,000 pounds of jet fuel that each jet was likely carrying. These infernos may have hit 2,000 degrees.

That was just too much for the steel and concrete structures. Steel loses more than half its strength at 1,500 degrees.

What followed was a building designer's nightmare. Some of the upper floors probably sagged 2 feet or more before finally breaking loose from the steel outer frames and inner cores that supported the buildings.

That dumped tons of concrete, fixtures and furniture on lower floors. A single floor could weigh as much as 3,000 tons. The falling debris started a top-down domino effect engineers call pancaking.

"The momentum was too much to handle," says William Faschan, a partner at Leslie E. Robertson Associates, the structural engineers for the towers. "A given floor normally could support the weight of three floors. But that assumes the weight is imposed in a gradual manner."

And there was nothing gradual about the process once each tower began to collapse. It took just moments for the growing weight and velocity of the wreckage to rip through lower floors as though they were tissue.

The buildings imploded just as they would if demolition experts had been hired to do the job.

It was a pitiable ending for the 1,362-foot buildings that were engineering marvels, and models of stability, in 1973 when construction was complete.

The 110-story towers were assembled from prefab grills, shipped from as far away as Seattle and Los Angeles and hoisted into place by cranes specially built in Australia for the project. When bolted together, they created more than 130 vertical steel support columns on the exterior, spaced 3 feet 4 inches apart. Horizontal steel beams from this outer tube helped to support the 4-inch concrete floors. They also connected to an inner tube — where the elevators were — which was supported by another set of steel columns.

"It was like a doughnut with this core element providing vertical support," says Tod Rittenhouse, principal of Weidlinger Associates. "This shell had tremendous strength."

Indeed, architect Minoru Yamasaki designed the towers to be far sturdier than state building codes required. The biggest threat to a building that tall is wind. New York insisted that buildings stand in the face of 90 mile per hour storms.

But the towers were "built to withstand the largest hurricane that could be envisioned," Faschan says. The simplicity of the design helped. "It was such a box," says Mysore Ravidra, president of LeMessurier Consultants, the firm that engineered New York's Citicorp building. "It's an engineer's dream for a design."

Still, after the collapse of the World Trade Center towers, many will try to come up with ways to avoid similar calamities.

"We need better materials and methods to extinguish these fires quickly," Sanayei says.

Some say that there's no realistic way to prevent a building from succumbing to such overwhelming attacks. "Nobody could afford it," Ravindra says. "It's almost unthinkable. There is no lesson to be learned. There was nothing in the building that was flawed."

Rittenhouse agrees. "There isn't much you can do" about a fire like the ones ignited by the exploding jets, he says.

Engineers may be able to help nearby buildings, though. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has asked for volunteers to check for damages, and possible improvements, in structures around the World Trade Center — now reduced to seven stories of rubble at the site of what was the north tower and two stories at the south tower.

A 47-story structure in the World Trade Center complex, Building 7, collapsed late Tuesday afternoon as a result of a fire that apparently ignited shortly after the towers were hit. And a nearby structure, One Liberty Plaza, had partially caved in as of late Wednesday.


Source:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/13/towers-collapse.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Continuity



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1716
Location: Municipal Flat Block 18A, Linear North

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:09 am    Post subject: You know... Reply with quote

...if the 1993 WTC bombing was supposedly nearly successful...

'They' say that if only the van was parked in the correct place that it was supposed to have been put - and not a dozen or so feet away - that it may way well have collapsed the tower. (Presumably by shattering the centre column)

Now I'm not sure if I buy this story, coz I can't see a van full of anything, short of a nuke bringing down one of those massive towers - What about all those bigass central columns? No way I'd have thought.

However - that's their story, and they've stuck to it. Anything we can use in this?

_________________
The rule for today.
Touch my tail, I shred your hand.
New rule tomorrow.

Cat Haiku


Last edited by Continuity on Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
EddieT



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 477

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that "Controlled Demolition, Inc." is pretty in your face. I also think however that in your face is their style, i.e. the numerological consistencies. Their message being the following: "You see what we did to these people who loved us, what do you think we would do to you, traitor."

Important to be suspicious of everything though, that type of thinking only makes the investigation that much more thorough.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fintan
Site Admin


Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 8166

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Core Issues Reply with quote

Quote:
Stallion4: Anyone care to guess when the media began pushing the "pancake" theory?

09/12/2001 - Updated 11:12 PM ET
Extreme heat, 'pancaking' doom towers into rubble
By David Lieberman, USA TODAY


Core Issues

Interestingly, Silverstein's independent study found that the trusses did
not collapse --and cited the smoke patterns as evidence. They said that
core weakness initiated collapse.


The insurers conducted their own study which broadly agreed.
Then the NIST resurrected the pancake theory.

Any floor could take the weight of three floors --if the load was gradually
applied. And sudden failure of a floor does not seem to be indicated, due
to the lack of a confirming smoke blast emission.

Then there's the question of the hat truss. This effectively hung the outer
perimiter over the top of the core and offset most of the effects of any
instability due to bending of exterior columns.

Nobody's claiming the hat truss failed. Just that it transferred the load
to the core --which then failed. But failure of the core due to the observed
fires is unlikely if you examine the strength of the core.

However, as the floors did not collapse, and neither did the hat truss,
then it's no surprise that both the insurer's and Silverstein's studies were
forced to conclude that core must have failed. They had to deal with the
reality that the building fell. So, where else could they go.

Only thing is.... this is SOME core. It was literally the backbone of the building.

Which brings up an interesting question.

WTF did it GO?? Where's the frikkin' core?



More on this soon....

But, if you are looking for a covert cause
of collapse, maybe the core is the place.

Quote:
The WTC Core!


Where's The Core?



Quote:
FORENSIC ENGINEERING
Study Absolves Twin Tower Trusses, Fireproofing


11/04/2002 By Nadine M. Post

The most comprehensive study yet on the destruction of the World Trade Center concludes that columns robbed of fireproofing failed first--not floor trusses--when the twin 110-story towers collapsed after being hit by terrorist plane attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. The proof is in the smoke that emanated from the burning towers before the collapses.

"There is no doubt left about the sequence of failure," says Matthys P. Levy, chairman of Weidlinger Associates Inc., the New York City-based engineer that led the study.

"Failure of the floors...was shown not to have had any significant role in the initiation of the collapses," says the report. Levy describes the floor truss system as "not unsubstantial," acting more like a membrane than a one-way system. "There was nothing wrong with it," he says. If the floor trusses had collapsed first, there would have been a mass of smoke as opposed to differentiated smoke, floor by floor, he adds.

The report also exonerates the steel's sprayed-on fireproofing. Computer models that identify the columns affected by the planes' impacts and flying debris confirm that columns with intact fireproofing did not succumb to the jet- fuel-triggered fire. The report also says, of the fireproofing knocked off the steel, that "no fireproofing is designed to withstand such devastating impacts."

Levy echoes preliminary reports. "The buildings were well-designed, rugged and withstood a tremendous impact," he says. "The fact that they did not collapse on the planes' impacts saved tens of thousands of lives."

Questions brought into the limelight by Sept. 11 include whether there is a better way to fight fires in tall buildings, says the engineer. "It's always been a problem," says Levy.

Another issue is whether less-frangible fireproofing should be considered for steel structures considered vulnerable to blasts and attacks. Experts might also reconsider location of fire stairs and the strengthening of the core, says Levy. But he cautions, "You can never anticipate exactly what the threat is going to be."

Regarding building materials, Levy says: "Concrete is not foolproof either."

The Weidlinger-led study was commissioned by Silverstein Properties Inc., the New York City-based leaseholder of the World Trade Center, to help support a $7-billion insurance claim. The research team also included LZA Technology/Thornton-Tomasetti Group; ARUPFire; Hughes Associates Inc.; SafirRosetti; Hillman Environmental Group; RWDI; W. Gene Corley, who led the ASCE-FEMA WTC study; Professor Sean Ahearn; and Z-Axis Corp.

Silverstein's insurers claim the collapse of the south tower, Two WTC, rendered the north tower, One WTC, unsalvageable even before it collapsed. If they prevail, Silverstein would receive only $3.5 billion (ENR 10/7 p. 11).

The insurers commissioned their own engineering study, written by Exponent Failure Analysis Associates Inc., Los Angeles. Also released, the report disagrees with the Weidlinger findings, but mostly on points relating to the insurance battle. Engineers from Wiss, Janney, Elstner and Associates Inc., Northbrook, Ill., also working for the insurers, would not comment on their work.

In the Silverstein study, engineers put forth similar but not exact failure scenarios for both towers: The planes and flying debris hobbled the buildings at the zones of impact. Intact columns, their fireproofing knocked off by flying debris, ultimately lost strength and failed in the fuel-triggered fire.

Though hit by the second plane later than One WTC, Two WTC fell first, "primarily" because the plane struck it off-center and at an angle and caused damage that compromised the southeast corner of the core. "This confirms an earlier theory," says Levy.

At each tower, exterior wall and core columns, connected by a steel "hat truss" at the building's top, initially redistributed loads away from the damaged areas to remaining columns. In Two WTC, the hat truss eventually could not deal with the situation of the corner columns gone, says Levy.

The team determined that the initial hits destroyed 33 of 59 perimeter columns in the north face of One WTC and 29 of 59 perimeter columns in the south face of Two WTC. Computer analysis showed that the impact of the planes also destroyed or disabled some 20 of 47 columns in the center of the core of One WTC and some five of 47 columns in the southeast corner of the core of Two WTC.

The Silverstein findings are based on analysis of original structural drawings, thousands of photos and dozens of videos. The team used computer modeling, including a program called FLEX developed by Weidlinger for the Dept. of Defense, and fire evaluation techniques to simulate the condition of each tower at critical times, creating impact and collapse sequences.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology, which recently began a two-year technical study on the World Trade Center disaster, is using both team's studies to perform a "very systematic" analysis, says S. Shyam Sunder, chief of NIST's materials and construction research division, Gaithersburg, Md. "The real question is whether there was one dominant failure mechanism or a combination," he adds.

Quote:
USEFUL LINKS

VIDEOS
North Tower Collapse - Enya Tribute
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6829152403332975963&q=WTC

South Tower Collapse
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3173519241898945782&q=South+Tower+Collapse

South Tower Collapse - Camera Planet
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=South+Tower+Collapse

South Tower Collapse Close Up - Camera Planet
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8564772103237441151&q=South+Tower+Collapse

South Tower Collapse Close Up 2 - Camera Planet
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5405555553528290546&q=WTC&pl=true

The Structural System of the Twin Towers
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/perimeter.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/floors.html

Structure images
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/docs/corebase1.jpg
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/docs/dsc00168s.jpg
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/docs/hattruss.jpg
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/docs/fig_2_9.jpg
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/docs/fig_2_7.jpg

Study Absolves Twin Tower Trusses, Fireproofing (11/04/2002)
By Nadine M. Post
http://enr.construction.com/news/buildings/archives/021104.asp

Building a Better Mirage
NIST's 3-Year $20,000,000 Cover-Up of the Crime of the Century
by Jim Hoffman
Version 1.0, Dec 8, 2005
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/

NIST's Evasion
http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer/nistevasion.html

Skeptics
http://www.debunking911.com/collapse.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/sag.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/impact.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Next Level Forum Index -> 9/11 HardCorps Specifics Investigation All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 14, 15, 16  Next
Page 1 of 16

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

Theme xand created by spleen.