FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in 
Call for more scientific work
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Next Level Forum Index -> General Discussion
  ::  Previous topic :: Next topic  
Author Message
Tom



Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 130
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:44 am    Post subject: Call for more scientific work Reply with quote

The systematic way of dealing with 9/11 on breakfornews gives me hope - if we only could treat every question that way!
I am convinced, that in the long run it will be much more efficent and less timeconsuming to spend more time with reaserching news in the first place and fact-check them - not as a one man job, but in concert.
"Social Movements" work without a hierarchical structure (on the grassroot level, anyway) - you just need to list, what is to be done, and volunteers pick one or more of the tasks.
SO,
when you have a story - for example a significant one - make a list of facts, that need to be checked. Hopefully, if such a fact-checking "culture" is established, interestes people will "show up" to check this or that fact. Provided the right documentation of sources it will be easy to cross-check the work of everybody - the research, the "legwork" if you will, is done.
Finally, if the basis of established facts is layed out, the speculations and analysis can begin - I would like to see people more arguing about the quality of sources than about - well - speculations.
Giving the big number of intelligent people here, this could work in no time and yield a good working foundation in the long run.
The product of this research could be presented in an comprehensive way, so not all the posts must be read by "newbies". With a short introduction, a longer version, and - for the interested reserchers- a scientific version with all the footnotes and sources. At this stage this way of working would save a whole lot of time and would be - in my opinion - SO MUCH MORE CONVINCING.
Please, at least think about it...

_________________
I do not want to believe,
I want to KNOW!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
city trader



Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 373

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buckminster fuller strikes back.
a prototype of a 3000$ mass-manufacturable ecological house, with perfect insulation, allowing total off-the-grid movement, and movement worldwide.

didnt work out in the 1940s. can work out now. emergence through emergency.á this frees people up from the slavery of mortgages and interest (usury which is unlawful), the dependence for a grid system, and citizenry.á couple this with the earthship technology and you have people tilling and growing their own food whilst abandoning city-life which is currently unbalancing this planet.
http://www.aluminum.org/ANTemplate.cfm?IssueDate=09/01/2001&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Peter



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 2448
Location: The Canadian shield

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Thinking about being the box Reply with quote

Since the electrical infrastructure is already in place, every house built should have a windmill (turbine) rooftop solar panel and converter in the electricity meter system to allow for "returning" excess energy to the grid for credit. That done, your bill would be lower and the energy content of society could be greater.
_________________
The grand design, reflected in the face of Chaos.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Tom



Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 130
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess I will just have to start doing what I am preaching and in time others will follow, o well
- see you then

_________________
I do not want to believe,
I want to KNOW!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:35 pm    Post subject: Fact Checking Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
SO,
when you have a story - for example a significant one - make a list of facts, that need to be checked. Hopefully, if such a fact-checking "culture" is established, interestes people will "show up" to check this or that fact. Provided the right documentation of sources it will be easy to cross-check the work of everybody - the research, the "legwork" if you will, is done.


Hi Tom -

I think that's a cool idea, and I'm all for the idea of collaborative social research.

The idea of 'fact checking' also brings up an important relevant discussion: what sort of evidence constitutes proof of fact, and when is a source considered 'credible'?

For a lot of people, if they read it in the newspaper, it's true, while others consider 'AP' to designate 'Already Propaganda'.

It is then that issues like belief structure and critical thinking come into play, which takes any remaining gossipy fun right out of the whole discussion. Still, I think it's a really good idea.

The benefit of 'fact checking' , IMO, is that the web of sources behind an article usually reveals to me a variety of connections between the sources themselves, which begins to paint an intuitive picture for me about what the larger agenda may be behind the promotion of a certain viewpoint.

That 'ah ha!' moment is usually more of an intuitive realization that comes from examining all the facts, rather than hitting 'paydirt' and uncovering a previously overlooked reference.

Anyway, I think starting with some easy examples first would be a great idea - at least we could discuss what is considered a 'reliable' source. I think this might shed some light on not only the flimsy amount of verification necessary for a major news story, but also how powerfully 'news' media conditions our individual understanding of reality.

So, yeah, throw out what you consider to be a suitable media candidate, and let's begin the dissection!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom



Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 130
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuck it, WHY NOT! (I really have no time for this, that is why, but I guess I will just have to make at least an efford to MAKE time, won't I?)

First of all: I would gladly discuss the validity of this or that source, in my opinion we do that way to seldom...wait, I just realized the whole CIA FAKE LIST is about that...anyway, here it goes:

1. First suitable story of BBC.com , OK? Known for good journalism, but also suspisious since BRITISH and MAINSTREAM, so
Last Updated: Sunday, 2 December 2007, 10:54 GMT
Sudanese views differ in teddy row
By Amber Henshaw
BBC News, Khartoum

"Pre-prepared banners called generally for "punishment"

The protests may be over for now in Khartoum but the debate about Gillian Gibbons carries on unabated.

As efforts to get her released by the British foreign office and two Muslim peers continue, opinion is divided and both sides of the argument are trying to make their voices heard.

Clearly the Sudanese Government is coming under huge pressure internally about this case.

Some now want the government to send Mrs Gibbons back to court. They believe the 15-day sentence for insulting religion was too lenient and they would like her to be re-tried.

Pictures burned

As witnessed during Friday's protest, there is a minority who are baying for her blood.

Some chanted threats against the 54-year-old primary school teacher from Liverpool.

A group of men shouted: "She must be killed by the sword."

Newspaper pictures of Mrs Gibbons were burned on a makeshift stage at the heart of Martyrs Square.

But this kind of sentiment seems to be coming from a small group of hotheads.

Public apology

Some analysts believe that the majority of people were pacified because she had got a jail term.

There's also a large chunk of the population that feel deeply upset by what has happened to Mrs Gibbons.

They share the sentiment voiced by the school and Mrs Gibbons herself that this was an innocent, unintentional mistake and that if she apologized publicly that would be enough for them to forgive her.

At court on Thursday before the verdict, one man approached me and asked whether I was the teacher.



The treatment of Mrs Gibbons has triggered a diplomatic rift


Protests in Khartoum

I said no but he continued in broken English that he had just wanted to apologise to Mrs Gibbons for the ordeal that she was being put through.

Diplomats hope that her ordeal will be over in the next couple of days.

Efforts by the British foreign office and the two British Muslim peers who are in Khartoum on a private mission to secure the early release of Mrs Gibbons - are under way.

Sources close to the Sudanese Government believe the peers have more chance of success than official attempts by London.

Orchestrated protests

This whole incident has put an enormous strain on relations between Britain and Sudan and it is likely to have long lasting consequences that will not be easy to resolve.

The Sudanese Government reacted angrily to threats by the British Prime Minister Gordon Brown about possible sanctions over Darfur.

It had already taken great efforts by the British to start turning things round to get relations on a more even footing, but this incident is bound to set them back.

Many believe this case is politically motivated and that Mrs Gibbons is a pawn in a far wider diplomatic wrangle.

There was a strong feeling here that Friday's protest had been carefully orchestrated. The banners waved by marchers and tied to the front of vehicles had all been pre-printed"

I am not sure how many word I have left, soo...

_________________
I do not want to believe,
I want to KNOW!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom



Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 130
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2. My second choice would be what dilbert_g hat to say about the Alex Jones - John Birtch Society Connection, since I wrote I would fact check that anyway:

1. Name of AJ father
2. doc or link showing, that he is father of AJ
3. "" that he is John Birch Society

Any facts showing connections between CIA and John Birch Society?

In your opinion (speculation...): What is their purpose? To present facts about
planed NWO and destroying the credebility of it? Building an american facist
movement? Leading social acrivists astray?
Is that, what in you opinion is going on with LaRouche and his minions (except that
he is a megalomeniac and greedy)?


Tom,
I don't know Jones' father's name, but Jones has stated proudly on air that his
father was/is a member of JBS, and that he therefore had a "soft spot" for JBS, due
to his dear old dad. JBS at one time openly bashed Jones (really?) for his 9-11
Truth activism, though a former JBS member and gentleman of quiet intellect G.
Edward Griffin also told I-Net radio host Scott Horton a.k.a. "Philip Dru" that he
believed that 9-11 was probably an inside job by the govt or such characters.

Griffin does not blame this on fascists who want to wage world war for American
hegemony for the ruling class -- even though that's basically what they have stated
and written, behind the patriotic fašade, and what they have always done, going back
to the Monroe Doctrine, the Open Door Policy (force open the doors to markets in
Asia). Griffin blames "collectivism", as if labor unions or community social
organizers caused 9-11 and the invasion of Iraq by supporting "big govt". No, it
couldn't have been the desire of the elites for Empire and hijacking the legitimate
govt to achieve it, whether actual imperialism or the more subtle form of economic
neo-imperialism and setting up puppet govts. Griffin says not a word about how giant
multi-national corporations and banks, and corporations which have also become banks
(GMAC, Ford Credit, etc.) are the biggest part of the problem, how it's the seamless
merger of multi-national corporations and govts. (I keep saying "multi-national",
because that's a hint at what this "one world govt" is about. This is not
speculation. The people in power are openly stating that, including on right wing
shows like Townhall.)

Griffin does not complain that corporations and their leaders regularly
"collectivise" themselves into national and international institutions and think
tanks to promote their common interests in the political sphere, like less taxes and
less regulation for corporations and less regulation of banking.

Apparently JBS either "came around" on 9-11, or at least they decided not to bicker
any more over such differences with Jones. In reality, it's probably all part of the
one psyop. That's what Intelligence-oriented propaganda organizations do --- create
real splits and squabbles via infiltrators to break up movements they don't control,
OR more often create fake squabbles within groups they do control ... like Democrats
vs. Republicans.

Jones had John McManus, President of JBS on his show, and lavished praise on him. I
think I said "McMaster" above. It's McManus.

JBS is the polished arm of the fascist right. Just like there's a variety of
Left-leaning groups from those which circle around Hillary to those which circle
around Kucinich, to Move-On, to more radical Leftists who collect in various
semi-communist orgs only to roll in with Democrats. (United for Peace and Justice
was one of those groups practicing "ineffectiveness tactics" on antiwar protesting
and organizing, then falling in around getting John Kerry elected, the candidate who
did not want to win. UPFJ and the 800 groups under their 'umbrella' was like a
"slot" for people to run to who decided to oppose the war. Mustn't let them form
groups on their own --- create some for them, with different flavors.)

While the CIA excelled in creating and sponsoring "fake" non-communist Leftist
groups, conferences, publications, art, and music, Intelligence and the Business
Community also played a role in organizing an overt right wing resistance to
communism/socialism/labor activism under the banners of religion, capitalism, and
patriotism.

There really was an active fascist right in America in the 30's and 40's, and they
all spoke of patriotism, God, and Christ, and many openly praised Adolf Hitler. JBS
came later in that tradition, during the Cold War.
Here's some links I have found
http://www.Takeoverworld.info/jbs-cnp.html
http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/53-index.html
http://www.Takeoverworld.info/overclass.html

my webpages are often reproductions + commentary of other websites, and credited as
such

-----------------------------------
How do you fight State-Capitalism? Well, the grassroots communists were trying to do
so, in some cases they were armed and protecting workers and their families against
the State and Corporate Thugs. That was in the 30's.

_________________
I do not want to believe,
I want to KNOW!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom



Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 130
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First the BBC Story:

Obviously we will need to analyse the Sudanese-British relations and there is also a thread about this on breakfornews I did not read yet,
but lets put that aside for a while.

Why did I choose this newsreport? Well, first of all: "Many believe this case is politically motivated and that Mrs Gibbons is a pawn in a far wider diplomatic wrangle." Indeed!
And we know the author of this piece: Amber Henshaw. Might come in handy later on..
Actually because this is a follow up piece, we do not learn so much about the actual problem (I did not follow it anyway)
So lets see this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7119399.stm
The Introduction reads: "UK teacher jailed over teddy row
Britain said the incident was an 'innocent misunderstanding'

A British teacher has been found guilty in Sudan of insulting religion after she allowed her primary school class to name a teddy bear Muhammad.
Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool, has been sentenced to 15 days in prison and will then be deported.

She escaped conviction for inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs, and will now appeal.

Foreign Secretary David Miliband has expressed "in the strongest terms" the UK's concern at her detention."

Later: "The prime minister, Sudanese embassy officials in London and UK Muslim organisations all expressed the hope that Mrs Gibbons would be released.

But Sudan's top clerics had called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a Western plot against Islam."

And: "The school's director, Robert Boulos, told the AP news agency: "It's a very fair verdict, she could have had six months and lashes and a fine, and she only got 15 days and deportation."

He said Mrs Gibbons would only serve another 10 days in prison, having already spent five in custody since her arrest. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7115821.stm
Goes on how nobody would be offended until:
"Gill Lusk, the associate editor of Africa Confidential and a specialist on Sudan, says the incident will have offended many in the country. As Sudan is a place where religion is never mocked or satirised, it's "unthinkable" that a toy or pet could be given a religious name.

"You're not supposed to give a religious name to any objects - it could be seen as idolatry."

But the majority of Sudanese people won't have wanted to see Ms Gibbons in trouble for the naming of the teddy bear.

"People are very forgiving of foreigners, particularly Europeans. Nobody would think she was trying to offend them - they would just think she was ignorant."

Though one, any ideas? Do not know where to start, my second choice , the Alex J - JBS Connection would be easier...

Anyway: Back at the original story http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7123517.stm

the last word are: "There was a strong feeling here that Friday's protest had been carefully orchestrated. The banners waved by marchers and tied to the front of vehicles had all been pre-printed."
Leaving the reader with a clear message.
Makes me thing of Afghanistan before 9/11, only there they had real christian missonaries.

Well, I think I will leave it here for the moment because I have no idea where to go from here - I see no obvious starting point. Any suggestions?
Maybe now a look at the thread will help...

_________________
I do not want to believe,
I want to KNOW!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
city trader



Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 373

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deleted re edited and moved to another thread.

Last edited by city trader on Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom



Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 130
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crap, can't find it. Help?
OK, tuck my tail FOR NOW and move on to hopefully less slippery Nr. 2
Do not get me wrong, I could speculate tons of stuff about the story, but since I set out to do something different...I won't.

Nr.2
"I don't know Jones' father's name, but Jones has stated proudly on air that his
father was/is a member of JBS, and that he therefore had a "soft spot" for JBS, due
to his dear old dad. JBS at one time openly bashed Jones (really?) for his 9-11
Truth activism, though a former JBS member and gentleman of quiet intellect G.
Edward Griffin also told I-Net radio host Scott Horton a.k.a. "Philip Dru" that he
believed that 9-11 was probably an inside job by the govt or such characters."

Now, this is easy. Alone in this small part of the post of dilbert there are so many facts that need checking.
Now, I know that this is not balanced, because I did not set out to check every stated fact in the BBC piece, but then again maybe THIS is just more interesting for me...it is a irrational decision, there, I said it!

1. The broadcast of AJ talking about dad has to be found and linked, ne c'est pas?
2. Maybe AJ is lying (being CIA and all;): What is his father name, and IS he JBS?
3. Info on JBS bashing AJ ('really?")
4. "former JBS member and gentleman of quiet intellect G.
Edward Griffin also told I-Net radio host Scott Horton a.k.a. "Philip Dru" that he believed that 9-11 was probably an inside job" - broadcast and Griffin-JBS-Con.

I will start with 1., if you want to help start with 4. and we will meet in the middle....yeah, right!

_________________
I do not want to believe,
I want to KNOW!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom



Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 130
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK here one infowars source:
http://www.infowars.com/articles/commentary/alex_jones_interviews_mcmanus.htm
so the broadcast took place on April 27th 2006 , The Alex Jones Show.
Here is the problem: I can not find the broadcast. Maybe I am not searching right - anybody more luck?
Via this: http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/Alex-Jones-summary.html
I found this though: http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/july_4th_real_meaning_of_4th_of_july.htm
At least infowars.com is working with JBS in more than one instant...
The RSICC mean something to you?
http://rsicc.org/Members/AlexJones/index.html
I put it in because this guy: http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&groupID=102291369&page=0&EntryID=15111441&CategoryID=0&get=1&adTopicId=0&lastpagesent=3&Mytoken=10113FE8-9694-111B-F89BE6AC1195141126452743
ties RSICC with with JBS
I do not say I checked it and he is right - far from it this is only a first (and oh so long) sweep...

Anyway, can not find anything on his father, too.

_________________
I do not want to believe,
I want to KNOW!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom



Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 130
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Three strikes and .. still going. Could find no evidence of John Birch attacking Alex Jones. This point is only supported by the infowars - source. I can not even find a second source for that - where should I look?

4. "former JBS member and gentleman of quiet intellect G.
Edward Griffin also told I-Net radio host Scott Horton a.k.a. "Philip Dru" that he believed that 9-11 was probably an inside job" - broadcast and Griffin-JBS-Con.
My last hurra for today...
The truth ministry says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Edward_Griffin
that at least the John Birtch Society published The creature from Jekyll Island, but seems to have also at least one other publisher American Media
http://opac.suub.uni-bremen.de/DB=1/FKT=8000/FRM=83816919*/IMPLAND=Y/LNG=DU/LRSET=1/SET=1/SID=c1b75588-1/TTL=1/MAT=/NOMAT=T/CLK?
IKT=1008&TRM=American+Media
Wiki also sees Griffin as ex-JBS:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society#Notable_Members_in_History
Looking at this I GUESS American Media is connected to JBS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society#Further_reading
"Griffin, G. Edward. (1975). The Life and Words of Robert Welch: Founder of the John Birch Society. Thousand Oaks, CA: American Media."
Or they like Griffin very much....
on American Media: http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/product-compint-0000698223-page.html
"Private Company, Headquarters Location
PO Box 4646, Thousand Oaks, CA, United States
(805)498-2333, (805)498-4868 fax, http://www.realityzone.com
Primary SIC: Book Publishing & Printing, Primary NAICS: Book Publishers"

About the interview with Philip Dru via http://philipdru.com/
I found the interview: http://www.philipdru.com/griffin3_stream.html
and still listening....

_________________
I do not want to believe,
I want to KNOW!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Next Level Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

Theme xand created by spleen.