FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in 
FREE WILL...who's got it, who wants it, who needs it?
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Next Level Forum Index -> Understanding Our Reality
  ::  Previous topic :: Next topic  
Author Message
Peter



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 2448
Location: The Canadian shield

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:11 am    Post subject: FREE WILL...who's got it, who wants it, who needs it? Reply with quote

Free love may be easy to define (a poor prostitute? Shocked ) but what about free will?

Your reality is appended to the subjective nature of your existance. That subjective nature was assigned to the ego, as its reference point for the purpose of properly directing transcendent energy through your processing systems. It was not, however, meant to be anything else. During the course of the development of consciousness, man needed to relate to all of the unknown in the universe and the ego was used as the internal reference standard. This is where the whole thing went wrong. (Or at least went off on a tangent while waiting for your level of consciousness to get to where it needed to be for you to understand and properly exploit the structures and processes that make up your being.)

Your will was exercised when your spirit and your source determined just exactly what was required for your continuing evolution. They programmed the self with all of the information and parameters that were needed so that the descent into the material plane could use the memorial aspects of the soul to register and absorb the requisite experiences. We are like an apprentice that has been assigned a task but has forgotten what his trade is.

Free will is worth what it costs. What you have to do is already there to be done. How you do it is what makes the difference.

_________________
The grand design, reflected in the face of Chaos.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
city trader



Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 373

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: FREE WILL...who's got it, who wants it, who needs it? Reply with quote

Peter wrote:
Free love may be easy to define (a poor prostitute? Shocked ) but what about free will?

Your reality is appended to the subjective nature of your existance. That subjective nature was assigned to the ego, as its reference point for the purpose of properly directing transcendent energy through your processing systems. It was not, however, meant to be anything else. During the course of the development of consciousness, man needed to relate to all of the unknown in the universe and the ego was used as the internal reference standard. This is where the whole thing went wrong. (Or at least went off on a tangent while waiting for your level of consciousness to get to where it needed to be for you to understand and properly exploit the structures and processes that make up your being.)

Your will was exercised when your spirit and your source determined just exactly what was required for your continuing evolution. They programmed the self with all of the information and parameters that were needed so that the descent into the material plane could use the memorial aspects of the soul to register and absorb the requisite experiences. We are like an apprentice that has been assigned a task but has forgotten what his trade is.

Free will is worth what it costs. What you have to do is already there to be done. How you do it is what makes the difference.


Peter.
Your Soul (the Real You not the body)does not evolve you have (MUST) to learn to live by the Universal Laws and Principles.
DO you mean Willingly Learn when you say "evolve".?


The First Principle of God's
Government - Theocracy:-




Jesus said, "I am The Way, the Truth and the Life" and "no man comes to the Father except by me." How does that relate to the Song of Moses (the Mosaic Law in The Covenant)? The Covenant is called "The Way" in The Torah (Deuteronomy chapter 9 verses 12, 16 and 11:28 and 13:5 and 31:29) and Jesus was saying that he was a living demonstration of it (The Way) in action, demonstrating how YOU have to be if YOU want to survive and go home to Father. Again we have perfect harmony between the two "Songs" - The Song of Moses and the Song of The Lamb.

Mankind over 6,000 years has never yet been clever enough; because he is "blinded" by his own arrogance and selfishness; to see the Wisdom of The Covenant and God's Laws and that they are the ONLY way to peace and harmony.

Arrogance and ignorance are the two sides of Satan's coin.

Humility and Wisdom are the two sides of God's coin.

In the day that man, in his Satanically inspired (and copied) arrogance, thought himself to be wise (like Satan did), he became a fool; fooled and deceived by his own ignorance of his own arrogance: ignorance that he tries to conceal with his arrogance, even from himself (just like Satan does).

The Laws and Principles of Government, given by the Ruler of The Universe, via Moses, are what have maintained peace in the Universe for Eternity. If you want to be pardoned and released from this lunatic-asylum prison-planet, and from your human organic-computer prison-cell (body) and go home, back out into the Universe, back to where you came from and live forever, with your real family and friends, then you have to learn those Laws and Principles here and PROVE that you can keep and live by them, here under all and extreme conditions and temptations, before you can be trusted and released. The Messiah said in Revelation chapter 2 verses 26, 28, "To him that overcomes and keeps MY works unto The End, ........ will I give the Morning Star."

I will give you an easy illustration for you to be able to better understand this Universal Principle:-

If you have a hundred people of whom you are one and each person puts themself first and is out-for-themself and what they can get, then all you will ever have is competition, strife, violence and war. The history of this planet is proof of that fact.

The strong will oppress the weak. The rich will oppress the poor. The clever will oppress the not so clever and there will be continual struggle for survival, leading to crime, violence, war and eventually total annihilation - Armageddon. How can there possibly NOT be?

On the other hand; as Jesus demonstrated when he gave his life voluntarily for the benefit of everyone else; if you take exactly the same hundred people of whom you are one and everybody, including you, now puts everyone else first, before their "Self", then each individual, including you, wins ninety-nine times, because each individual has ninety-nine other people putting them first.

However, it will not work unless every single person does it, because one bad apple RUINS the whole barrel.

To explain even more clearly still, in terms that everyone should be able to understand, if they want to understand, one human family can amass an absolute fortune, under selfish, fraudulent, illegal laws; in the space of two hundred Earth years; and, in so doing, make millions of other people POOR and miserable.

Imagine what would happen IF they were NOT human and lived for ever (zillions of years). How many poor people, and wars, and how much havoc; strife and misery could they then create?

That is why you were sent here and are still here on this prison-planet because you are NOT really human and have never RE-learned those "Universal Principles" as you were COMMANDED to "on pain of death" and if you were released YOU would cause the very havoc that I have just told you about.

God explained to you, via Moses, that those of you who will not LIVE by those Principles and The Law will DIE by The Law, and, contrary (the opposite) to what you have been told by priests of all denominations, He always says what He means and HE MEANS EXACTLY WHAT HE SAYS.

Perhaps now you can see why God abolished the and all priesthoods except for The High-Priest, for all time, after the order of Melchizedek. - JAH



Copyright © 1997 - JAH - all rights reserved.



Please access:- "The New Song" for the full New Song and complete explanation.

In the very little time that you have left to learn the New Song, before Execution-Day arrives; for those who are still committing treason; you had, if YOU want to survive, better REPENT and start learning to sing The New Song, "for the Kingdom of God IS AT HAND." - on The Rock (Gibraltar) - FIRST (Isaiah 42).

You will be unable to do that without reading, digesting and Living "The Way home or face The Fire" by this author - JAH.

http://jahtruth.net/godgovmt.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Peter



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 2448
Location: The Canadian shield

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: Six of one, a half dozen of the other. Reply with quote

Hi CT, welcome to the exchange Very Happy

I see great similarities in both of our explanations. (Since we are basically dealing with the same phenomenon, this is to be hoped for.) Although I tend to choose a somewhat more mechanistic and quite a bit less anthropomorphic approach, its all good. Even the fractional difference is sufficient to achieve perspective and permit the triangulation of our respective realities.

As Michäel of Nebadon (The head Melchisedek of the local universal government) once said, "This planet was designed to allow all beings the comfort of a sympathetic and harmonious vibration. At some time in the near future, your purposes revealed and realized, it (the vibe of the planet, renewed and refreshed) will shine as a diamond in the firmament and be visible to all beings of conscious intelligence."

There is not so much to learn, as there is time to know.

_________________
The grand design, reflected in the face of Chaos.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Peter



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 2448
Location: The Canadian shield

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject: Illusions are just that, reality is what it is. Reply with quote

So why the heck do we "need" (ie have) the illusion of free will anyway?

As descendent energy traverses the conduit of the mind on its way to the lens of the ego, it impacts and traverses memorial psychic structures that are in place in the inframental region "inhabited" by the astral body. In fact, this is just "overflow" that impinges on the psychic conduit but it does relate to our earthly experiences so it is, for all intents and purposes, our memory. These reflective thought forms are received by and conceived of the ego as an internal dialogue that relates to the energetic process that is ongoing.

Since this reflective dialogue appears to present more than one aspect of a given energy field, there seems then to be a "choice" available to the ego as to which "side" of the dialogue should be allowed to manifest in the material plane. Obviously, astral plane memorial structures have no business re-manifesting and only because their energy is emotionally "tainted" do they achieve recognition by the ego. The ego, in its search to align and collimate the flow of energy, is supposed to use the reference material of the reactive memory along with the calculated values of the intellect to determine where the most adroit application of the transcendent energy should be.

Once it is "misaligned" by the effect of these memorial contaminants, it is too late to correct and we end up manifesting our energy in ways that have no bearing on the need or resultant well-being that was the original intention of the original energetic transmission.

_________________
The grand design, reflected in the face of Chaos.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Peter



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 2448
Location: The Canadian shield

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:10 pm    Post subject: Can I make up my mind, pretty please? Reply with quote

Along the same lines of the illusion of free will is the consideration of how we deal with choices versus decisions.

A directed descent into the material plane would incorporate all of the lines of existence and therefore all of the eventualities that will occur during the timeline to which you are exposed. Your experience would be situated relative to the conditioning that your memorial aspects require for them to be adjusted and incorporated into your psychic being.

In this respect, it becomes easier to understand that we are "locked-in" to our energetically most efficient (or feasible if you prefer) activity and what remains is to "choose" the way that we will accomplish our efforts. The purpose is to "perfect" our approach so that we come as close as possible to the requirement with the least expenditure (of time, effort and approach).

Thus, we can appreciate the feel of whichever method we favor (synchronizing into the vibe) and this is a direct result of the memorial contents of our psyches. This means that a choice is only an orientation that is influenced by the memorial repository on our astral plane. The desire that drives and influences us is a two-edged sword. If we are too easily fascinated and influenced by these residues then we risk falling into the karmic aspect of balance. The warping of this universal principle by the laws of karma is just one aspect of the cosmic lie (duality) that permeates our entire existence and structures.

A decision, on the other hand, is a tool that the mental processes can use to adjust and arrange the manner by which our choice is enabled and enacted. The more our consciousness accedes to the supramental vibratory region, the more our decisions become dispassionate, clear and effective. The are spot on and we are "in the groove".

_________________
The grand design, reflected in the face of Chaos.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Mâ$onic_G



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 41
Location: There are no nations; There are no borders

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you used the term astral body, which we should both know appears in the work: in search of the miraculous.

It just so happens that this fits in with my overall view on freewil, which I will be first to admit is 'elitist', reason being, I'm not actually against what I'm told are the principles of 'naught masonry'.

From what I understand, only those who use the power (and can have the power) actually have the power, actually have it, which, although sounding simple enough, is in fact quite more complex, for like G., and masonic speculation in general, I will agree that much of the general population is in fact 'dead' - raised in an open air mind control experiment. Or, like G. mentioned, they are 'machines' - an explanation which would explain much of what I've failed to be able to properly comprehend in my life.

Elitism kicks in when I come to believe that the 'psychopaths' and 'gifted' are no different, for both are awake; it's merely what they do with this awareness that matters, or is, what hte common people would call, 'good' or 'bad'

Where this all leads is that I in a way do not think that free will is accessible or even attainable by all, or put simply, robots do not have free will, and unfortuantely, most of the profane/unwashed/humble masses are robots. And believe me, I see this in college all the time.

Though I like to have faith in people, I must also take a serious glimpse into the mirror every now on then and admit to myself that yes, it really is that ugly. Many of these people, if I am to say, fully deserve whatever fate awaits them due to their content, and consequently, their neglect.

Only the 'I', the initiator of action, the pure self, the most liberated being, is capable of fulfilling free will, whereas the profane, are in essence, consigned to being born as base material for the use of whatever so tyrant comes across.

Not sure is this is escapable, especially if we consider that the truth will always be alienated. My question is: even if powerful, can truthful be both powerful and universal?

So far, I see no evidence of this. So far, the masses remain hopelessly hypnotised.

"those who were saved were saved before they were born"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mâ$onic_G



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 41
Location: There are no nations; There are no borders

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Erica Carle: Give us the young (from Appendix) Reply with quote

Dr. Carpenter wrote:

Quote:
I find nothing in the results of recent researches to shake the conviction at which I arrived nearly forty years ago, of the existence of a fundamental distinction, not only between the rational action of sentient beings guided by experience and the automatic movements of creatures whose whole life is obviously but the working of a mechanism, but also between those actions (common to Man and intelligent brutes) which are determined by a preponderating attraction towards an object present to the consciousness, and those (peculiar, as I believe to Man) in which there is, at one stage or another, that distinct purposive intervention of the self conscious Ego which we designate Will, whereby the direction of activity is modified.

In external Nature there is nothing that can truly be termed ‘choice.' If a piece of iron be brought within the sphere of attraction of two magnets placed on opposite sides of it, one near but feeble, the other strong but remote, we feel assured it will be drawn towards the one which makes the stronger pull upon it . To use the word "choice" in such a case - to say that the iron Chooses towards which of the magnets it shall move, - would be felt by everyone to be a misapplication of the term. The same would be the case as regards any other action determined by Physical causation. And yet on the Determinist doctrine, if I am attracted by the temptation of an immediate but immoral pleasure, and am deterred from it either by a sense of duty or by the fear of the remote consequences of the sin, I have no more "choice" as to the course I take, than has the piece to iron that is attracted in opposite directions by two magnets. Now my contention is, not merely that I Have a choice, but that the very existence of an idea which can be derived from no other source than Human experience, confirms the testimony of my own consciousness to that effect . And like confirmation is afforded by the familiar reply "I have No Choice," in cases in which we feel it to be a Necessity (whether physical or moral) that we should take a particular line of action.
That in making our Choice, and acting upon it, we are determined by the "preponderance of motives," I do not call into question; the Self-determining power of the Will seeming to me to be exerted in modifying the preponderance which the motives Per Se would determine.

Now, all experience shows that Motives which may exert a preponderating influence at one moment are comparatively powerless at another; on the other hand, Motives whose influence at one moment is scarcely felt, may come to acquire a force that makes them far outweigh those which at first over-balanced them. This is especially apparent when we exert our Volitional power of 'self-control' to check the immediate action which is prompted by some Automatic impulse; time being thus gained for the excited feeling to subside, and for the 'second thoughts' of the higher Reason to make themselves heard . And a further reflection on our own mental experience will satisfy us, that these variations in the relative strength of Motives mainly arise from the degree of Attention that we give to each respectively . An excited Feeling which would soon die out if let to itself, will retain its potency, or even gain augmented force, if we allow ourselves to brood over it ; whilst, on the other hand, the power of those remoter considerations which deliberation suggests, increases in proportion as they are dwelt on . And just as, in the case of the two magnets, we may reverse their relative attractions by changing their respective distances from the iron between them, so can each Ego who has acquired the power of directing his own course of Thought and Feeling, alter the relative potency of different motives or sets of motives, by Determinately Directing His Attention to those which would draw him in one direction, and by partially or completely Excluding those of an opposite tendency from his mental view .

If it be urged by the Automatist that this fixation of the Ego's attention on one set of motives to the exclusion of the other, is really due to the superior strength of the motive (supplied by his previously-formed character) which leads him to Desire so to fix it, 1 reply that no experience of which I am conscious is more real to me, than that if I did not Make An Effort to keep my attention fixed, the Desire alone would fail to do it. I am further conscious that a great deal more is 'taken out of me' by the prolongation of such a struggle, than by a far larger measure of undistracted mental action . And I ask, 'Why, on the Automatist theory, should this 'be?' – To myself it seems clear that it is in the control he thus acquires over the Automatism of his nature, that Man's Freedom Of Choice essentially consists; whilst, on the other hand, it is in virtue of his want of power to gain a complete control, that his Freedom Is Limited.

This view seems to me to find its strongest support in the experience of those who have been most largely and most successfully engaged in the Education of the young. For, as 1 have had abundant opportunities of learning, they watch for the dawn of this power of reflection and deliberation in the child, endeavour to strengthen his feeble resolution by judicious encouragement, lead him to reflect upon the consequences of his misdoing to himself or to others, and give additional force to his sense of Duty by earnest appeals to it, so as to sustain him in a conflict to which he is as yet unequal if left to himself; but at the same time they make him feel that he must not always expect such help, and that it rests with himself, by habitually fixing his attention upon what his Reason and his Moral Sense tell him he Ought to do, to be able to Will to do it against his inclination

No experience is so remarkable in its bearing on this question, as that of the Philanthropic men and women who have taken the largest and most efficient share in the work of Juvenile Reformation. For they have to deal with a class of boys and girls, who have grown up to a most unmanageable age, in habits of entire unrestrainedness of Thought and Feeling, and in no more restrainedness of Action than has been imposed by external coercion or by fear of punishment . These young "reprobates" have not the least idea of self-control, or of doing anything else than that which their inclinations prompt; their notions of "right" are all based upon limited self-interest; and they hold everything to be "wrong" which interferes with what they conceive to be their own "rights." Now the first lesson that has to be taught them is that of obedience to discipline, for which punishment has often to be used as a motive. But in proportion as the habit of Self-control is acquired, appeals to the better nature come to have a force superior to that of mere coercion; and the greatest success is attained when that controlling power is Spontaneously exerted under the direction of Ought or Ought Not . So, in the cultivation of the dormant Moral Sense, the first teaching goes to show that what the pupil considers his (or her) "rights" are some one else's wrongs" ; and the Golden Rule is enforced by the practical applications which are found most suitable to impress it on each individual nature . Thus a foundation is laid for the development of that higher Moral sense, on which the principle of Religious obligation is most securely based. But the result of the most successful effort in this direction is only considered to have been attained, when the subject of it has been awakened to a full consciousness of possessing a power Within Himself to resist temptation and to act as duty directs ; which power it rests with himself to exert, and for the non-exercise of which he is responsible .

Of course it will be replied by the Automatist, that all such "training" is part of the external influences which go to the formation of the Character; and that its efficacy depends upon the degree in which the sense of Duty can be thus developed by judicious culture into efficient predominance . But I affirm it to be a matter of notorious experience, that it is the reiteration of the assurance that the Child or juvenile offender Can govern his temper, if he will try hard enough ; that he Can overcome a difficulty, if he will summon courage to make a vigorous effort; that he Can choose and act upon the right, in spite of strong temptation to do wrong, by Determinately Keeping Before His Mind the motives and sanctions of duty, - which constitutes the most effectual means of calling forth that power of "Self-control," which the most enlightened Writers of antiquity, and the most successful of modern Educators, concur in regarding as the most valuable result alike of Moral and of Intellectual discipline . - To the consistent Automatist, who denies the existence in the Ego of any self-determining power, and who puts his whole trust in the Motives brought to bear from without, it seems to me that the word Try can really have no more meaning than the word Choice.

The sense in which the terms Right and Wrong are universally accepted is based on the idea of a Self-determining capability to Do the right and to Avoid the wrong. This seems to me perfectly clear, when we compare this acceptation with the sense we attach to the very same words when applied (figuratively) to a piece of pure Mechanism. If I say that my watch goes "right," I do not assign to it any moral credit, but merely mean that it keeps time well. And if I say that it goes "wrong," I do not speak of it as an object of blame, but merely mean that it wants regulating.

So, again, I am unable to see any meaning in the ancient proverb that "he that is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city,"- or to feel any admiration for the hero who "has gained the greatest of all victories, "the victory over himself," if the course of action results from no other agency than either physical or mental Automatism, and no independent power be put forth by the Ego in determining it . And if I felt obliged to accept that doctrine as scientific truth, I should look to its honest and consistent application to the training of the young as the greatest of social calamities . For I can imagine nothing more paralysing to every virtuous effort, more withering to every noble aspiration, than that our children should be brought up in the belief that their characters are entirely formed For them by "heredity" and "environments"; that they Must do whatever their respective characters impel them to do; that they have no power of resisting temptations to evil, than such as may spontaneously arise from the knowledge they have acquired of what they ought or ought not to do; that if this motive proves too weak, they can do nothing Of Themselves to intensify and strengthen it ; that the notion of "summoning their resolution," or "bracing themselves "for the conflict," is altogether a delusion ; that they are actually in the position of a man who is floating downstream in a boat without oars, towards a dangerous cataract, and can only be rescued by some outside mechanism .

It may be confidently stated as a result of universal experience, that our "capacity of willing," that is, of giving a preponderance to the motive on which we elect to act, depends, First, upon our conviction that we really have such a self-determining power, and, Secondly, upon our habitual exercise of it.

It seems to me quite clear that on the Automatist or Determinist theory, such words as "ought," "duty," "responsibility," have to be used, if used at all in new significations. The welfare of that aggregate of Automata which we call Society, may require that every individual automaton shall be prevented from doing what is injurious to it; and punishment for offences actually committed may be reasonable inflicted as a deterrent from the repetition of such of fences by the individual or by others. But if the individual has In Himself no power either to do the right or to avoid the wrong, and if the potency of that aggregate of feelings about actions as being "right or wrong" which is termed Conscience, entirely depends upon "circumstances" over which he neither has, or ever has had any control, I fail to see in what other sense he should be held "responsible" for doing what he knows he knows that he "ought not" to have done, or for not doing what he knows that he "ought" to have done, than a Steam-engine, which breaks away from its "governor" in consequence of a sudden increase of steampressure, or which comes to a stop through the bursting of its steam-pipe, can be accounted responsible for the damage thence arising.

The idea of "responsibility" on the other hand which is entertained by Mankind at large, rests upon the assumption, not only that each Ego has a Conscience which recognises a distinction between right and wrong, and which (according to the training it has received) decides What is wrong in each individual case, but also that he has a Volitional power which enables him to intensify his sense of "duty" by fixing his attention upon it, and thus gives it a potency in determining his conduct which it might not have otherwise possessed . That this power is a part of the Ego's "formed character," and that it can only be exerted within certain limits, is fully admitted on the doctrine I advocate; but the responsibility of the Ego is shifted backwards to the share he has had in the formation of his character and in the determination of those limits. And here, again, the results of Scientific investigation are in complete harmony with the precepts of the greatest of all Religious Teachers. For no one can study these with care, without perceiving that Jesus and Paul addressed themselves rather to the formation of the Character than to the laying down rules for Conduct ; that they endeavoured rather to cultivate the dispositions which should lead to right action, than to fix rigid lines of duty, the enforcement of which under other circumstances might be not only unsuitable but actually mischievous ; and that they not only most fully recognised the power of each individual to direct the habitual course of his thoughts, to cherish his nobler affections, and to repress his sensual inclinations, but made the possession of that power the basis of the entire system of Christian Morality

To myself it seems as if nothing was wanting either in my own Self-consciousness, or in what I know of the conscious experiences of other men, to establish the existence of the "self-determining power" for which I contend . I cannot conceive of any kind of evidence of its existence more cogent than that which I already possess. And feeling assured that the source of my belief in it lie deep down in the nature of every normally-constituted Human being, I cannot anticipate the time when that belief will be eliminated from the thought of Mankind; - when the words "ought," "duty," "responsibility," "choice," "self-control," and the like, will cease to have the meaning we at present attach to them ; - and when we shall really treat each other as Automata who cannot help doing whatever our "heredity" and "environments" necessitate .

University of London,
June, 1876


Quote:
The Conscious life of every individual Man essentially consists in an action and reaction between his Mind and all that is outside it, - the Ego and the Non-Ego . But this action and re-action cannot take place, in his present stage of existence, without the intervention of a Material instrument; whose function it is to bridge over the hiatus between the individual Consciousness and the External World, and thus to bring them into mutual communication . And it is the object of this Treatise to take up and extend the inquiry into the action of Body upon Mind, as well as of Mind upon Body, on the basis of our existing knowledge ; so as to elucidate, as far as may be at present possible, the working of that Physiological Mechanism which takes a most important share in our Psychical operations; and thus to distinguish what may be called the automatic activity of the Mind, from that which is under volitional direction and control . - This inquiry has been started more than once, but has not until recently been systematically prosecuted . But so long as either the Mental or the Bodily part of Man's nature is studied to the exclusion of the other, it seems to the Writer that no real progress can be made in Psychological Science ; for that which "God hath joined together," it must be vain for Man to try to "put asunder ."

To the prevalent neglect of the study of the mutual relations of Mind and Body, may be traced many of the fallacies discernible in the arguments adduced on each side, in the oft-repeated controversies between the advocates of the Materialistic and the Spiritualistic hypotheses; - controversies in themselves almost as absurd as that mortal contest, which (as fable tells us) was once carried on by two knights respecting the material of a shield seen by them from opposite sides, the one maintaining it to be made of gold, the other of silver, and each proving to be in the right as regarded the half seen by himself. Now the Moral of this fable, as respects our present inquiry, is, that as the entire shield was really made-up of a gold-half and a silver-half which joined each other midway, so the Mind and the Brain, notwithstanding those differences in properties which place them in different philosophical categories, are so intimately blended in their actions, that more valuable information is to be gained by seeking for it at the points of contact, than can be obtained by the prosecution of those older methods of research, in which the Mind has been studied by Metaphysicians altogether without reference to its material instrument, whilst the Brain has been dissected by Anatomists and analyzed by Chemists, as if they expected to map-out the course of Thought, or to weigh or measure the intensity of Emotion . The Psychologist who looks at his subject in the light of that more advanced Philosophy of the present day, which regards Matter merely as the vehicle of Force, has no difficulty in seeing where both sets of disputants were right and both wrong; and, laying the foundations of his Science broad and deep in the whole constitution of the individual Man and his relations to the Universe external to him, aims to build it up with the materials furnished by experience of every kind, Mental and Bodily, normal and abnormal, - ignoring no fact, however strange, that can be attested by valid evidence, and accepting none, however authoritatively sanctioned, that will not stand the test of thorough scrutiny.

Although few (if any) Philosophers would be disposed to question that the Brain is the instrument of our higher Psychical powers, the ideas which are entertained of the nature of this instrumentality have been seldom clearly or consistently defined . Some, who have attended exclusively to the close relationship which indubitable exists between Corporeal and Mental states, have thought that all the operations of the Mind are but manifestations or expressions of material changes in the Brain : - that thus Man is but a thinking machine, his conduct being entirely determined by his original constitution, modified by subsequent conditions over which he has no control, and his fancied power of self-direction being altogether a delusion; - and hence that notions of duty or responsibility have no real foundation, Man's character being formed for him, and not by him, and his mode of action in each individual case being simply the consequence of the reaction of his Brain upon the impressions which called it into play.On this creed, what is commonly termed Criminality is but one form of Insanity, and ought to be treated as such; Insanity itself is nothing else than a disordered action of the Brain; and the highest elevation of Man's psychical nature is to be attained by due attention to all the conditions which favour his physical development .

The most thorough-going expression of this doctrine will be found in the "Letters on the Laws of Man's Nature and Development," by Henry G. Atkinson and Harriet Martineau . * A few extracts will suffice to show the character of this system of Philosophy. "Instinct, passion, thought, etc ., are effects of organized substances." "All causes are material causes." "In material conditions I find the origin of all religions, all philosophies, all opinions, all virtues, all 'spiritual conditions and influences,' in the same manner that I find the origin of all diseases and of all insanities in material conditions and causes." "I am what I am; a creature of necessity; I claim neither merit nor demerit." "I feel that I am as completely the result of my nature, and impelled to do what I do, as the needle to point to the north, or the puppet to move according as the string is pulled." "I cannot alter my will, or be other than what I am, and cannot deserve either reward or punishment."

It seems to the writer that every system of Philosophy which regards the succession of Mental Phenomena as determined solely by the ordinary laws of Physical Causation, and which rejects the self-determining power of the Will (or, which is the same thing, regards the Will as only another expression for the preponderance of Motives, or as the general resultant of the action of the Physiological Mechanism), virtually leads to the same conclusion.

*It was Harriet Martineau who translated Auguste Comte's Positive Philosophy into English .

Now this honestly-expressed Materialistic doctrine recognizes certain great facts, as to which the unprejudiced and observant Physiologist can entertain no doubt; notwithstanding that their validity may be denied by those who have had comparatively little opportunity of studying them, or who have so made up their minds to a foregone conclusion, as to be ready to admit nothing which is not in accordance with it. The whole series of phenomena which so plainly mark the influence of the Body on the Mind, of physical upon psychical states, - the obvious dependence of the normal activity of the Mind upon the healthful nutrition of the Brain, and upon its due supply of Oxygenated Blood, - the effect of Intoxicating agents and of Morbid Poisons in perverting that activity, and expecially in withdrawing the "Mechanism of Thought and Feeling" from Volitional control, - the remarkable influence of local affections of the Brain, traceable in some cases to defective supply of blood, in others to blows on the head, in producing strange disturbances of Memory, - the large share which certain states of bodily disorder on the part of Parents, or conditions tending to induce defective nutrition during the periods of Infancy and Childhood, have been proved to possess in the induction of Idiocy and Cretinism, - the distinct Hereditary Transmission of acquired habits, which, modifying the Bodily constitution of the Parent,
repeat themselves in that which he communicates to his Offspring, - these and numerous other phenomena might be cited in support of the Materialistic doctrine, and must be taken account of by any one who would seek the solution of this mystery.

But these phenomena are not to be looked at to the exclusion of the facts of our own internal Consciousness. In reducing the Thinking Man to the level of "a puppet that moves according as its strings are pulled," the Materialistic Philosopher places himself in complete antagonism to the positive conviction, which - like that of the existence of an External World - is felt by every right-minded Man who does not trouble himself by speculating upon the matter,
that he really does possess a self-determining power, which can rise above all the promptings of Suggestion, and can, within certain limits mold external circumstances to its own requirements, instead of being completely subjugated by them.

The Writer entirely agrees with Archbishop Manning, in maintaining that we have exactly the same evidence of the existence of this self-determining power within ourselves that we have of a material world outside ourselves. For however intimate maybe the functional correlation between Mind and Brain - and Archbishop Manning seems disposed to go as far as the Writer in recognizing this intimacy - "there is still another faculty, and more than this, another Agent, distinct from the thinking brain" * * * "That we are conscious of Thought and Will, is a fact of our internal experience . It is a fact also of the universal experience of all men; this is an immediate and intuitive truth of absolute certainty."

We can scarcely desire a better proof that our possession of this power is a reality and not a self-delusion, than is afforded by the comparison of the normal condition of the Mind with those various abnormal conditions in which the directing power of the Will is in abeyance. For the "subjects" of these conditions may really be considered (so long as they remain in them) as mere thinking Automata, puppets pulled by directing-strings ; their whole course of thought and of action being determined by Suggestions conveyed from without, and their own Will having no power to modify or direct this, owing to the temporary suspension of its influence . - To whatever extent, then, we may be ready to admit the dependence of our Mental operations upon the organization and functional activity of our Nervous System, we must also admit that there is something beyond and above all this, to which, in the fully developed and self-regulating intellect, that activity is subordinated : whilst, in rudely trampling on the noblest conceptions of our Moral
Nature as mere delusions, the purely Materialistic hypothesis is so thoroughly repugnant to the intuitive convictions of Mankind in general, that those who really experience these are made to feel its fallacy, with a certainty that renders logical proof unnecessary.

Let us turn now to the opposite doctrine held by Spiritualists in regard to the nature and source of Mental phenomena; and consider this in its Physiological relations. To them the Mind appears in the light of a separate Immaterial existence, mysteriously connected, indeed, with a Bodily instrument, but not dependent upon this in any other way for the conditions of its operation, than as deriving its knowledge of external things through its Organs of Sense, and as making use of it to execute its determinations - so far as these are accomplished by Muscular effort. On this hypothesis, the operations of the Mind itself, having no dependence whatever on those of Matter, are never themselves affected by conditions of the Bodily organism ; whose irregularities or defects of activity only pervert or obscure the outward manifestations of the Mind, just as the light of the brightest lamp may be dimmed or distorted by passing through a bad medium : while, further, as the Mind is thus independent of its Material tenement, and of the circumstances in which this may chance to be placed, but is endowed with a complete power of Self-government, it is responsible for all its actions, which must be judged-of by certain fixed standards .

Now this doctrine fully recognizes all that is ignored in the preceding; but, on the other hand, it ignores all that it recognized and served to account for ; and is not less opposed to facts of most familiar experience . For in placing the Mind altogether outside the Body, and in denying that its action is ever disordered by Bodily conditions, the Spiritualist puts us in the dilemma of either rejecting the plainest evidence, or of admitting that, after all, we know nothing of the nature of the Mind itself; all that we do know, being that lower part of our Mental nature which operates on the Body, and is in its turn affected through it . - Those who would fully and consistently carry out this doctrine, are driven to maintain that even in the state of Intoxication there is no truly mental perversion ; and that, in spite of appearances, the mind of the Lunatic is perfectly sound, its bodily instrument being alone disordered . But it cannot be overlooked, that in the delirious ravings of Intoxication or of Fever, or in the conversation and actions of the Lunatic, we have precisely the same evidence of mental operation, that we have in the sayings and doings of the same individuals in a state of sanity ; and ample testimony to this effect is borne by those who have observed their own mental state during the access of these conditions, and who have described the alteration which took place in the course of their Thoughts, when as yet neither the Sensorial nor the Motor apparatus was in the least perturbed . Nothing can be more plain to the unprejudiced observer, than that the introduction of intoxicating agents into the Blood-circulation really perverts the action of the Mind ; disordering the usual sequence of phenomena most purely psychical, and occasioning new and strange results which are altogether at variance with those of its normal action . And when once the reality of this influence of Physical conditions upon purely-Mental states is forced upon the Physiologist, he cannot avoid recognizing it as a general fact of our nature ; so that he comes to be impressed by the conviction, that whilst there is something in our Moral constitution beyond and above any agency which can be attributed to Matter, the operations of the Mind are in a great degree determined (in our present state of being) by the Material conditions with which they are so intimately associated.

This combination of two distinct agencies in the Mental constitution of each individual is recognized in the whole theory and practice of Education . For whilst, in its earlier stages, the Educator aims to call-forth and train the Intellectual Faculties of his Pupil, and to form his Moral Character, by bringing appropriate external influences to bear upon him, every one who really understands his profession will make it his special object to foster the development, and to promote the right exercise, of that internal power, by the exertion of which each Individual becomes the director of his own conduct and so far the arbiter of his own destinies . This power is exercised by the Will, in virtue of its domination over the automatic operations of the Mind, as over the automatic movements of the Body; the real self-formation of the Ego commencing with his consciousness of the ability to determine his own course of thought and action . Until this self-directing power has been acquired, the Character is the resultant of the individual's original constitution, and of the circumstances in which he may have been placed; and so long as the circumstances are unfavorable to its development, and to the operation of those higher tendencies which should furnish the best motives to its exercise, so long the Character of the individual is formed for him rather than by him. A being entirely governed by the lower passions and instincts, whose higher Moral Sense has been repressed from its earliest dawn by the degrading influence of the conditions in which he is placed, who has never learned to exercise any kind of self-restraint (or, if he has learned it, has only been trained to use it for the lowest purposes), who has never heard of a God, of Immortality, or of the worth of his Soul, - such a being, one of those heathen outcasts of whom all our great towns are unhappily but too productive, - can surely be no more morally responsible for his actions, than the Lunatic who has lost whatever self-control he once possessed, and whose moral sense has been altogether perverted by bodily disorder . But let the former be subjected to the training of one of those benevolent individuals who know how to find out "the holy spot in every child's heart;" let patient kindness, continually appealing to the highest motives which the child can understand, progressively raise his Moral standard, and awaken within him the dormant susceptibilities which enable him to feel that he has a Conscience and a Duty, that he has a power within himself of controlling and directing his thoughts and actions, and that the highest happiness is to be found in the determinate pursuit of the true and the good, - then, but not till then, can he be justly considered responsible for his actions, either morally or religiously, - then only does he rise above the level of the brute, and begin to show that he is indeed made in the image of his Creator.

It is solely by the Volitional direction of the attention that the Will exerts its domination; so that the acquirement of this power, which is within the reach of every one, should be the primary object of all Mental discipline. It is thus that each individual can perfect and utilize his natural gifts; by rigorously training them in the first instance, and then by exercising them only in the manner most fitted to expand and elevate, while restraining them from all that would limit or debase . - In regard to every kind of Mental activity that does not involve origination, the power of the Will, though limited to selection, is almost unbounded. For although it cannot directly bring objects before the consciousness which are not present to it, yet, by concentrating the Mental gaze (so to speak) upon any object that may be within its reach, it can make use of this to bring in other objects by associative Suggestion . And, moreover, it can virtually determine what shall not be regarded by the Mind, through its power of keeping the Attention fixed in some other direction: and thus it can subdue the force of violent impulse, and give to the conflict of opposing motives a result quite different from that which would ensue without its interference . This exercise of the Will, moreover, if habitually exerted in certain directions, will tend to form the character, by establishing a set of acquired habitudes; which, no less than those dependent upon original constitution and circumstances, help to determine the working of the "Mechanism of Thought and Feeling ." In so utilizing it, the Will can also improve it by appropriate discipline ; repressing its activities where too strong, fostering and developing them where originally feeble, directing all healthful evergy into the most fitting channel for its exercise, and training the entire Mental as it does the Bodily organism to harmonious and effective working . And thus in proportion as our Will acquires domination over our Automatic tendencies, the spontaneous succession of our Ideas and the play of our Emotions show the influence of its habitual control; while our Character and Conduct in Life comes to be the expression of our best Intellectual energies, directed by the Motives which we determinately elect as our guiding principles of action.
It is obvious that the view here taken does not in the least militate against the idea, that Mind may have an existence altogether independent of the Body which serves as its instrument.

All which has been contended for is, that the connection between Mind and Body is such, that the actions of each have, in this present state of existence (which is all of which Science can legitimately take cognizance), a definite causal relation to those of the other ; so that the actions of our Minds, in so far as they are carried on without any interference from our Will, may be considered as "Functions of the Brain ." - On the other hand, in the control which the Will can exert over the direction of the thoughts, and over the motive force exerted by the feelings, we have the evidence of a new and independent Power, which may either oppose or concur-with the automatic tendencies, and which, according as it is habitually exerted, tends to render the Ego a free agent. And, truly, in the existence of this Power, which is capable of thus regulating the very highest of those operations that are causally related to corporeal states, we find a better evidence than we gain from the study of any other part of our Psychical nature, that there is an entity wherein Man's nobility essentially consists, which does not depend for its existence on any play of Physical or Vital forces, but which makes those forces subservient to its determinations . It is, in fact, in virtue of the Will, that we are not mere thinking Automata, mere puppets to be pulled by suggesting-strings, capable of being played-upon by every one who shall have made himself master of our springs of action.

It may be freely admitted, however, that such thinking Automata do exist: for there are many individuals whose Will has never been called into due exercise, and who gradually or almost entirely lose the power of exerting it, becoming the mere creatures of habit and impulse; and there are others in whom (as we shall hereafter see) such Automatic states are of occasional occurrence, whilst in others, again, they may be artificially induced. And it is (1) by the study of those conditions in which the Will is completely in abeyance, - the course of thought being entirely determined by the influence of suggestions upon the Mind, whose mode of reaction upon them depends upon its original peculiarities and its subsequently-acquired habits, - and (2) by the comparison of such abnormal states with that in which the Ego, in full possession of all his faculties, and accustomed to the habitual direction of his thoughts and control of his feelings, determinately applies his judgment to the formation of a decision between contending impulses, and carries that decision into action, - that we shall obtain the most satisfactory ideas of what share the Will really takes in the operations of our Minds and in the direction of our conduct, and of what must be set down to that automatic activity of our Psychical nature, which is correlated with Cerebral changes.

Thus, then, the Psychologist may fearlessly throw himself into the deepest waters of speculative inquiry in regard to the relation between his Mind and its Bodily instrument, provided that he trusts to the inherent buoyancy of that great fact of Consciousness, that we have within us a self-determining Power which we call Will, And he may even find in the evidence of the intimate relation between Mental activity and Physical changes in the Brain, the most satisfactory grounds which Science can afford, for his belief that the phenomena of the Material Universe are the expressions of an Infinite Mind and Will, of which Man's is the finite representative . (end, page 85)


"It may make a difference to all eternity whether we do right or wrong today.”
-James Freeman Clarke

*************
From: Dr. Carpenter's Mental Physiology 71, APPENDIX Page 71


PS>>>>>

I have these available as proper word documents complete with highlighted parts, and appropriate structure.

P.M me and I can send the more attractive and user friendly presentation on to you via email.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Peter



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 2448
Location: The Canadian shield

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:34 am    Post subject: Pull up a chair.....up where, you ask? Reply with quote

Hi M-G

Quite the meal to digest there..... Surprised

I do refer to the astral body as it is the part of our psychic structure that coincides with the astral plane of luminous energy. I am not so sure about the miraculous part, but it does provide shelter for our residual memories as well as sustenance for all manner or memorial entities that await retrieval and evolve in their own manner during the period that they are there.

"It may make a difference to all eternity whether we do right or wrong today.”
-James Freeman Clarke


Right or wrong being part of the duality of existence and involution, the actions that we make are eternal as they exist unsubjugated by time. The will of the person is to evolve to the next level of development. The present moment is free of the prison of time and as such allows for the only freedom that is required and necessitates that we be totally within it. That is the only prerogative and while it is not elitist, it is highly selective. Wink

_________________
The grand design, reflected in the face of Chaos.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Mâ$onic_G



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 41
Location: There are no nations; There are no borders

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really sorry about the length of that email. In a pervious forum I was 'attached' to, you were able to add actualy documents to posts, so that they could be downloaded. I would really preferred to have handed over the attractive, properly structured version of that file, for in itself, it is quite the heavy read. I more expected it to be downloaded/printed than to have anyone risk their attention span trying to read all of that. Most things on forums only get a cursory appraisal from me anyhow.

The part about the Miraculous ... I was actually merely referring to the book, 'in search of the miraculous' where the terms astral body etc are used, and also, G. mentions how people are merely machines, going on to say later, that freewill is attained (capacity) when the human can interact with their machine. (Pages 30 - 34)

What captured me is that this is pretty much the message I took away from the film Ghost in the shell two, with all their quotables for example

"there's something sinister about several people holding up mirrors..."
"a childs smiling face is learnt from the smiling face of a doll"
"human beings are nothing more than a material through which we weave fourth a dream called life"

(WARNINGS! All of these, even the last, are quoted from memory, and, therefore, are not to be trusted - ket we desire the bebel effect)

In my most elitist opinion, I would sort of agree that unless 'initiated' people merely react, without ever determining their own.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Peter



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 2448
Location: The Canadian shield

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:30 pm    Post subject: You have already paid, so how can it be free? Reply with quote

Time to lock and load. We can see what is going on around us. We know that the time is coming when we will have to decide to fish or cut bait. The illusion that you can choose is just a state of mind. The reality of our situation is that the will that we have is the will that we have developed. The development was part of the plan. The plan that we hatched and that we are executing with every breath and with every effort that we make.

Look at life. Just random experiences that you stumble into, through and out of? Perhaps knowledge of the ins and outs of the environment, once known, allow for a judicious choice of just what you need to fulfill the void that resides within. Fulfillment has nothing to do with having something to do and everything to do with making use of everything that is available. Each and every opportunity provides you with decisions about whether or not what is happening suits your purpose.

So just how can we devine this purpose? Take a look at the patterns that have developed and that have "served" you in the past. This service is, of course, referring to how your understanding of yourself has improved and how much more about yourself that your actions have revealed. Our live are open books that we need only look at and read.

_________________
The grand design, reflected in the face of Chaos.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Peter



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 2448
Location: The Canadian shield

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:29 pm    Post subject: Forget the free, what about the will? Reply with quote

We are faced with a dichotomy regarding the nature of the source and the self. Discrete versus continuous. In the ethereal plane, you either are or aren't. There is no duality because there is no polarity possible within the eigenvalues of the eigenfunction (I just knew that higher math was higher for a reason....lol)

Choices are or aren't. Decisions, on the other hand, depend on many factors and as such come in a broad continuum of possibilities. The will of the source is existential. The will of the self is manifest (condensed out of our intention and into our awareness by the will). So, in reality, you don't want your will to be free, you need it to be subject to your intelligence which is what is doing the muscle-work in the decisional process.

Being perfect is a given when you are a perfect being. Perfecting your self and your approach are all part of the plan and the prerequisite to making the grade. It is what we are all about.

_________________
The grand design, reflected in the face of Chaos.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
noplacebo



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 206

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:33 pm    Post subject: more more is the cry of a mistaken soul Reply with quote

I think Blake puts it quite well (but doesnt he always) ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... There is no Natural Religion
Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(a)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Argument. Man has no notion of moral fitness but from Education. Naturally he is only a natural organ subject to Sense.
I. Man cannot naturally perceive but through his natural or bodily organs.
II. Man by his reasoning power can only compare & judge of what he has already perceiv'd.
III. From a perception of only 3 senses or 3 elements none could deduce a fourth or fifth.
IV. None could have other than natural or organic thoughts if he had none but organic perceptions.
V. Man's desires are limited by his perceptions; none can desire what he has not perceiv'd.
VI. The desires & perceptions of man, untaught by anything but organs of sense, must be limited to objects of sense.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(b)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I. Man's perceptions are not bound by organs of perception; he perceives more than sense (tho' ever so acute) can discover.
II. Reason, or the ratio of all we have already known, is not the same that it shall be when we know more.
III. [This proposition is missing.]
IV. The bounded is loathed by its possessor. the same dull round, even of the universe, would soon become a mill with complicated wheels.
V. If the many become the same as the few when possess'd, More! More! is the cry of a mistaken soul; less than All cannot satisfy Man.
VI. If any could desire what he is incapable of possessing, despair must be his eternal lot.
VII. The desire of Man being infinite, the possession is Infinite & himself Infinite.
Conclusion.
If it were not for the Poetic or Prophetic Character the Philosophic & Experimental would soon be at the ratio of all things, and stand still, unable to do other than repeat the same dull round over again.
Application.
He who sees the Infinite in all things sees God. He who sees the Ratio only sees himself only.


Therefore God becomes as we are, that we may be as he is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Next Level Forum Index -> Understanding Our Reality All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

Theme xand created by spleen.