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Why is there no peace in ISRAEL or KASHMIR ?
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Cracrocrates



Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:15 pm    Post subject: Why is there no peace in ISRAEL or KASHMIR ? Reply with quote

So why is there no peace in Israel or Kashmir?

Similarities include:
Previous British Empire involvement
PARTITIONS outlined by Britain during establishment of apparently "independent" statehood
Apparent "Ethnic conflicts" which were less severe before statehood
Periodic "terrorist bombings" since statehood


Israel-related topics throughout the web have so much info/disinfo it's ridiculous...but realisitically, the reasons for there being "no peace" I would think would be somewhat similar to the reasons of periodic terrorist bombings in Kashmir or India. My simple guess is just a simple DIVIDE & CONQUER strategy by PTB, that the "terrorist bombings" are 90% false flag terror, with the other 10% incited by the hatred of the false flag parts.

Wiki excerpt concerning Israel's partition
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan
The plan would have partitioned the territory of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with the Greater Jerusalem area, encompassing Bethlehem, coming under international control.

The British proposed a Palestine divided between a Jewish and an Arab State, but in time changed their position and sought to limit Jewish immigration from Europe to a minimum. This was seen by the Zionists and their sympathisers as betrayal of the terms of the mandate, especially in light of the increasing persecution in Europe (leading to the Holocaust). It was met with a popular uprising and guerilla war from Jewish and Arab militant groups, often viewed as one of several factors that forced the British to hand the problem of Palestine over to the United Nations. The failure of the British government and the United Nations to implement this plan, prior agreement between the Jewish Agency and King Abdullah to divide Palestine between them,[1] and rejection of the plan by the Arabs resulted in the War for Independence, also known as the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.


The bits and pieces I know about India's history is that the British Empire refused to leave India unless India,Pakistan, and Bangladesh were partitioned from each other. The British moved up the deadline from partition, and with the partition and religious segregation demands from mostly BRITAIN, race riots (spontaneously?) broke out, and there was chaos. So later Kashmir, which was majority Muslim, could vote to be part of Pakistan or India, they voted to be part of India...and then there hasn't been peace ever since in Kashmir, with periodic terrorist bombings in Kashmir AND India, very few of which are reported by Western Media sources. ...Economically, the paritions had the same effect as if the U.S. had been partitioned after the Civil War...agriculture in the South, manufacturing separated in the North.

(So, under the EXTREMELY UNLIKELY scenario that the three nations re-united, would the new nation be called IndiPakLadesh ) ?

Wiki excerpt on India's partition
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India
The Partition was a highly controversial arrangement, and remains a cause of much tension on the subcontinent today. British Viceroy Louis Mountbatten has not only been accused of rushing the process through, but also is alleged to have influenced the Radcliffe Awards in India's favor since everyone agreed India would be a more desirable country for most.[7] [8] However, the commission took so long to decide on a final boundary that the two nations were granted their independence even before there was a defined boundary between them. Even then, the members were so distraught at their handiwork (and its results) that they refused compensation for their time on the commission.

Some critics allege that British haste led to the cruelties of the Partition.[9] Because independence was declared prior to the actual Partition, it was up to the new governments of India and Pakistan to keep public order. No large population movements were contemplated; the plan called for safeguards for minorities on both sides of the new state line. It was an impossible task, at which both states failed. There was a complete breakdown of law and order; many died in riots, massacre, or just from the hardships of their flight to safety. What ensued was one of the largest population movements in recorded history. According to Richard Symonds[10]“ at the lowest estimate, half a million people perished and twelve million became homeless”

However, some argue that the British were forced to expedite the Partition by events on the ground.[11], Law and order had broken down many times before Partition, with much bloodshed on both sides. A massive civil war was looming by the time Mountbatten became Viceroy. After World War II, Britain had limited resources[12], perhaps insufficient to the task of keeping order. A hasty exit may have been seen as preferable, and perhaps less bloody than the slow disintegration of the Raj.


Taken from the History or Science thread.
Cracrocrates wrote:
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: WHY IS THERE NO PEACE IN ISRAEL ?
The (staged?)violence of the Palestinians is instigated by much more violence from Israelis...to the point where even Israeli soldiers sometimes refuse to follow orders. What's the reason for this ??? IT'S INSANITY! Is the STATE staging violence so the US has a public excuse to keep funding Israel because of its location as a military base in the Middle East, or something ?

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Peter



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:14 pm    Post subject: Why should there be peace when there is money to be made? Reply with quote

Unfortunately people tend to think that others that help them (by supplying armaments etc.) are their friends......foolish sheeple.
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PatrickSMcNally



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't honestly see a parallel between Israel/Pakistan and India/Pakistan. Since 1967 Israel has recieved endless amounts of financial and military aid from Washington without much indication of conditions being attached. That pattern also is reflected in media and political discourse. Michael Moore can make a successful film which takes a jab at Saudi Arabia, but attempts to make a play after Rachel Corrie are disrupted.

The real questions about Israel have little to do with any external plot to use Israel for whatever and much to do with the internal politics of Israel. Israel, like the rest of the world living under capitalism, has gone through some major internal changes since the early 1990s. At one time it would have been perfectly rational to describe Israel as national socialist in the sense that socialist measures were applicable to those within the country of certified Jewish background whereas those outside of the ethnic barriers were discriminated against. At the degree to which social welfare was attended to generated the usual patriotic euphoria and their are many documents from the history of Zionism expressing an aim of colonizing the whole area of the Middle East or thereabouts.

I don't expect that will in practice occur today. Social tensions have grown within Israel in the last 15 years or so, even among Jewish citizens of Israel. This frequently reduces the ability of a state to act as an effective imperial colonizer. But Israel still has the same type of overtly racist structure of a kind which the US has not seen since the Jim Crow days. That conflicts in many respects with the economic social contradictions which are growing there, but without solving the matter either way.
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Cracrocrates



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found a chart of accumulated foreign aid from 1960-2004.

Numbers show what Chomsky meant by U.S. buying off Egypt to counter Israel, (of course these "aid" figures are probably mostly sales for American defense contractors).

So
Israel is #1
Egypt is #2
India is #3 (which was a surprise)
Vietnam is #4 (Vietnam War)
Pakistan is #5 (I thought Pak would be higher than India, guess not)

http://www.heritage.org/Research/features/issues/charts/ForeignAid/ForeignAid_table1_l.gif

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Cracrocrates



Joined: 27 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But more current numbers (2000-03) there's a huge drop after Israel and Egypt...nobody else comes close like the 1960-2004 aggregate.

Maybe because U.S. doesn't have to worry about countering China anymore, so don't have to give Pak & India as many weapons?

http://www.heritage.org/Research/InternationalOrganizations/images/26853118.gif

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Peter



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:37 pm    Post subject: eenie meenie minie jew.... Reply with quote

Well, they are the chosen people so I guess it just depends on who is choosing them and for what..... Twisted Evil
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PatrickSMcNally



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cracrocrates wrote:
Numbers show what Chomsky meant by U.S. buying off Egypt to counter Israel,


I wouldn't really use the word "counter" in this context insofar as that suggests that Egypt was being built up as a rival force to Israel. It would be more precise to say "buying off Egypt to please Israel" since all aid which Egypt has ever received from Washington has always been conditional upon Egypt maintaining good relations with Israel. You can look high and low for any sign of the US Congress ever attaching conditions to the dollars which Israel receives, but there haven't been any. Aid to Israel has been handed over unconditionally for a long while.
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foo



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did anyone else pick up on the skewed language in the chart that Crac posted? It reads, "Rate of Voting with the US..."

The implication is that Israel follows the lead of the US.

It is not unusual, when a measure is brought before the General Assembly, that the Palestinians are actual human beings and that they should be treated accordingly, for the only two negative votes are cast by both Israel and the US.

I infer, from "Rate of Voting with the US..." that the US supports the genocide against the Palestinians and that, out of loyalty to the US, Israel votes to support the US position.

That chart is propaganda. It purpose is to convince readers that Israel "deserves" to be the #1 recipient of US foreign aid, because they most often support the US position on measures before the General Assembly. (No, Crac, I'm not suggesting any such motive from you.)

Two other possibilities occur to me:
1) The US and Israel just happen to share the same foreign policy goals, or
2) Israel exerts considerable influence over US foreign policy.

Martin
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Cracrocrates



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: FUELING THE ARMS RACE AND ARMS INDUSTRIES Reply with quote

FUELING THE ARMS RACE AND ARMS INDUSTRIES

So, looking at the U.S. foreign aid numbers, I was about to post a theory that, well, maybe Israel gets fancy new weapons and weapons systems on the cheap or for free, making it necessary for most other nations to also buy newer weapons for defense, hence, creating more sales and profits for Defense Contractors WORLDWIDE, from the U.S. to UK to Germany to China to Japan. Civil War in Kashmir would encourage military spending in India,Pak,and China as well. Maybe this is the real reason American Congressman won't vote against free money for Israel...each state depends too much on military spending/jobs and congressional pork, and a vote against Israel...is like voting against Capitalism and the MIC itself...which is a bad career move, as well as bad for,uh, health reasons.

HOWEVER, then I looked up how nations were ranked according to annual Military Expenditures...and Israel isn't that high on the list. I know Israel is a smaller nation with fewer people and all, but its total military spending is about the same as those for...CANADA, or much lower depending on whose figures one uses. WTF ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
Both sets have Israel military spending at about $10 Billion, one set has Canada at about $17B with the other one at about $11B.

Though, some evidence that maybe my first theory was right...Saudi Arabia's expenditures are either $30 BILLION or $25 BILLION annually.

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PatrickSMcNally



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: FUELING THE ARMS RACE AND ARMS INDUSTRIES Reply with quote

Cracrocrates wrote:
HOWEVER, then I looked up how nations were ranked according to annual Military Expenditures...and Israel isn't that high on the list. I know Israel is a smaller nation with fewer people and all, but its total military spending is about the same as those for...CANADA, or much lower depending on whose figures one uses.


Canada does not receive the type of uncritical support from the US Congress which Israel does. One should supplement any direct military expenditures which Israel makes within its own land, through the usage of money donated unconditionally to them from Washington, by the fact that US military expenditures can also be counted to a large degree as military budgeting which will be used to protect Israel if need be. No other country in the world which the US has given military aid to has received it in the same unconditional way which Israel has.
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Cracrocrates



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: FUELING THE ARMS RACE AND ARMS INDUSTRIES Reply with quote

PatrickSMcNally wrote:

Canada does not receive the type of uncritical support from the US Congress which Israel does. One should supplement any direct military expenditures which Israel makes within its own land, through the usage of money donated unconditionally to them from Washington


Yes. So the actual military spending for Israel is the numbers above plus another $3 Billion from the U.S.

Quote:
No other country in the world which the US has given military aid to has received it in the same unconditional way which Israel has.


True. But Canada is already part of the G8, along with France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, the United Kingdom and(of course) the United States. Perhaps adding China, aren't all these other nations in on the Defense Contracting/Capitalism NEVERENDING GLOBAL WAR games since WWII? Isn't this the reason NATO isn't going away anytime soon, and seems to be getting even stronger after the fall of the USSR?

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" 'New World Order' ?...same as the Old World Order "

Church of Crac motto:
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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick interim note before I read the rest:

Jeff Halper, Israeli journalist and member of ICHD (they rebuild Palestinian houses after the government tears them down, some rebuilt 7 times, which is a visible form of protest) stated that the State of Israel's real policy is "managed conflict".

In other words, when too much Palestinian violence arises, bring in the big guns and knock it down. When Palestinians do a unilateral cease-fire or take a break, do something outrageous to start it up again. Shoot some Palestinian women or kids, do some mass arrests of 'suspected terrorists'. The provoked response from Palestinian groups is then spun in the media to justify the ongoing 'defense' situation.

Those 'rockets' are great for hype, poor for killing. Annoying, possibly deadly. I'm sure there's much worse in many American cities.


Secondly, like any political decisions, multiple parties need to be satisfied. U.S. and Israeli arms dealers (and others) get more business. Politicians get more power. More make-work for soldiers and police. The public gets an 'official outside enemy' to hate, as Machiavelli, Strauss, and Condi Rice says. Et Cetera.

But the people get fucked, spiritually and materially, on both sides, obviously one side far worse than the other.
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