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Beating AIDS denialism
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Toto



Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 348

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Beating AIDS denialism Reply with quote

Medical science has made great strides in the understanding and treatment of HIV and AIDS over the last 25 years, but there are still lingering questions to be answered and mysteries to be solved.

Some pundits argue for example that HIV disease has become a chronic condition and that poz people with access to proper medications should expect to live just as long and vigorously as anyone. Others say the epidemic is on the verge of a new offensive because drug-resistant strains of the virus are emerging through natural selection.

One piece of the HIV puzzle that is crystal clear is the causative link between HIV and AIDS. There is only a tiny handful of wacky AIDS denialists who cling to the fiction that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.

Usually denialist arguments seem rooted in homophobic bigotry, twisted misogynist machismo or conspiracy paranoia. Sometimes arguments are shrouded in fake scientific lingo. Other times legitimate academics usually sociologists or mathematicians commit the logical fallacy of concluding that because the pathology of the AIDS epidemic is unlike any other, HIV doesn't cause AIDS.

Whatever their conscious or unconscious motivations, AIDS denialists are simply wrong about HIV. The virus does cause AIDS and it does kill.

Dr Mark Wainberg and Dr John Moore, world-class HIV researchers, argue that the suggestion that HIV doesn't lead to AIDS is so counterproductive to prevention efforts that government should take steps to muzzle denialists for good.

"Our lawmakers need to enact legislation to put appropriate limits on such irresponsible expression and to counter the ongoing damage perpetrated by denialists," they wrote in a Jul 4 Globe And Mail op-ed piece for the web entitled AIDS And The Dangers Of Denial. "... At a time when progress in HIV/AIDS drug treatments and life expectancy is informing an alarming new complacency in our children, policymakers should defer to proven scientific fact and stop the transmission of deadly lies."

In the same piece, the two allude to their unsuccessful attempt to have a professor of mathematics fired from her job at a university in Texas for daring to publish a book in which she uses a mathematical model to support a denialist position.

Wainberg and Moore epidemiologists who are among the world's elite HIV researchers are right to speak out against denialism, but their draconian tactics on this issue go too far and may only serve to revive an already suitably discredited and humiliated movement.

Dissent, no matter how eccentric or ill-conceived, is an important part of our society and is critically important to scientific discourse. What Wainberg and Moore propose is the further criminalization of HIV and even worse, of thought and expression. Their proposal is morally wrong and tactically counterproductive to their goals.

Some of history's most famous dissenters are scientists. Dissent is the mechanism through which queer people began to live openly. It was dissenting, mostly gay, AIDS activists who demanded action in the early days of the epidemic. Without dissent, public discourse and scientific scrutiny become universal agreement and immutable status quo.

The few denialist physician/researchers in the world are already pariahs and laughingstocks in the scientific community. A predictable number of amateur denialists seem to die each year from pneumocystis pneumonia. That denialists are mistaken is obvious to any rational mind and their ideas are only dangerous in the absence of effective education about the realities of HIV.

Criminalizing denialist expression could drive it underground and make it dangerously fashionable. It would certainly make denialism into a hot-button issue about freedom of speech and expression when it ought to be about HIV prevention.

Every denialist argument Wainberg and Moore face is an opportunity for them to reinforce the truth. They should embrace those opportunities. They have the overwhelming advantages of popular opinion, empirical proof and millions of people who are thanks in part to their work flourishing with HIV.

Wainberg and Moore should continue to use their wits and their credibility to argue denialists into even deeper obscurity; they should not fight to create denialist martyrs.
Matt Mills is Xtra's associate publisher.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=3&STORY_ID=3323&PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=7
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urbanspaceman



Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 325
Location: London , UK

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to see that most of the commentors (over 90%) on that sight weren't buying the party line. Is the cat finally out of the bag on the internet on this issue?
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Cracrocrates



Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: list of books at jamesphogan.com (scifi author) Reply with quote

You can find a list of HIV skeptic books with short descriptions at:
Quote:

www.jamesphogan.com/heretics/toc.php#aids

AIDS and Health Related: 17 titles

AIDS and the Ecology of Poverty by Eileen Stillwaggon (2005) -- Poverty and malnutrition as prime factors in Third-World AIDS


AIDS Cult, The by John Lauritsen and Ian Young (Eds.) (1997) -- Asklepios, Provincetown, MA, 1997. 224pp. ISBN 0-943742-10-2


AIDS War, The by John Lauritsen (1993) -- The subtitle: "Propaganda, Profiteering and Genocide from the Medical-Industrial Complex" says it all.


AIDS: A Second Opinion by Gary Null & James Feast (2001) -- An investigative reporter's comprehensive survey


Apocalyptics, The by Edith Efron (1984) -- A thoroughly researched revelation of how political ideology has corrupted cancer research in the United States.


Get All the Facts: HIV Does Not Cause AIDS by Mohammed Ali Al-Bayati (2002) -- Investigation and indictment of the effects of toxic antiviral drugs by a California-based pathologist, toxicologist, and AIDS dissident.


Infectious AIDS by Peter H. Duesberg (1995) -- A collection of thirteen articles originally published in scientific journals that call into question the dogma of infectious AIDS.


Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter H. Duesberg (1996) -- A comprehensive case, presented by perhaps the most qualified and persistent challenger of the mainstream HIV theory of AIDS.


Myth of Heterosexual AIDS, The by Michael Fumento (1993) -- Dismisses the claim that was being repeated everywhere at the time of the book's publication that AIDS had "broken out" into the heterosexual population -- or that it ever would.


Oncogenes, Aneuploidy and AIDS by Harvey Bialy (2004) -- "A scientific life and times of Peter H. Duesberg." Harvey Bialy, himself a biochemist, interweaves the story of Duesberg's personal experiences with a broader view of how politics, money, vested interests, and an over-reliance by much of t


Origin, Persistence and Failings of HIV/AIDS Theory, The by Henry H. Bauer (2007) -- Irreconcilability of commonly held assumptions with the published data.


Poison By Prescription by John Lauritsen (1990) -- The AZT story


Positively False: Exposing the Myths Around HIV and AIDS by Joan Shenton (1998) -- Shows the HIV=AIDS=Death dogma which has wrongly acquired the force of certainty to be riddled with flaws.


Rethinking AIDS by Robert Root Bernstein (1993) -- A critical reappraisal of AIDS research that shatters conventionally unquestioned assumptions and reopens the fundamental questions of what is really known.


Science Sold Out: Does HIV Really Cause AIDS? by Rebecca V. Culshaw (2007) -- A mathematician's reasons for changing her position and quitting AIDS research


Serious Adverse Events: An Uncensored History of AIDS by Celia Farber (2006) -- Twenty years of reporting by a skeptical AIDS journalist


What If Everything You Thought. by Christine Maggiore (2002) -- A powerful deconstruction of the popular AIDS myths.

_________________
" 'New World Order' ?...same as the Old World Order "

Church of Crac motto:
"The End is Nigh. Give me a Dollar."


--Cracrocrates
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foo



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, yeah -- good ol' Mark Wainberg. Good ol' Mark Wainberg, who, at last count, owned stock in six different drug companies that produce the lethally-toxic chemicals, masquerading as miracle, life-extending drugs for AIDS patients.

The term "conflict of interest" comes to mind.

Oh, yeah -- good ol' Mark Wainberg. Good ol' Mark Wainberg, a Canadian, who had the audacity to propose that the Congress of the United States of America enact a law, mandating imprisonment for anyone publicly disputing the HIV/AIDS hypothesis.

As South African AIDS activist Anita Allen, in the summer of 2000, so accurately expressed it, "AIDS science is fascist science. AIDS science is science at the barrel of a gun."

One more thing: Not one -- not even one -- article has ever appeared in any peer-reviewed medical or scientific journal, documenting that the collapse of the human immune system called AIDS is caused by a communicable, infectious, pathogenic retrovirus called "HIV."

Not one. Not even one. Not ever.

Martin
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Toto



Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 348

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

foo wrote:
Oh, yeah -- good ol' Mark Wainberg. Good ol' Mark Wainberg, who, at last count, owned stock in six different drug companies that produce the lethally-toxic chemicals, masquerading as miracle, life-extending drugs for AIDS patients.

The term "conflict of interest" comes to mind.

Oh, yeah -- good ol' Mark Wainberg. Good ol' Mark Wainberg, a Canadian, who had the audacity to propose that the Congress of the United States of America enact a law, mandating imprisonment for anyone publicly disputing the HIV/AIDS hypothesis.

As South African AIDS activist Anita Allen, in the summer of 2000, so accurately expressed it, "AIDS science is fascist science. AIDS science is science at the barrel of a gun."

One more thing: Not one -- not even one -- article has ever appeared in any peer-reviewed medical or scientific journal, documenting that the collapse of the human immune system called AIDS is caused by a communicable, infectious, pathogenic retrovirus called "HIV."

Not one. Not even one. Not ever.

Martin


GOOD info Foo. Wink
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puffdaddy



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 506
Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:17 am    Post subject: Beating AIDS denialism Reply with quote

Wikipedia sez that Human Immunodeiciency Retrovirus causes AIDS. What about that? My neighbor and friend came down with the Human Immunodeficiency Retrovirus and his immune system failed and he is dead now. I suppose that was a conspiracy?? C'mon get your facts right. If you don't know what you are talking about, then shut the fuck up!!
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puffdaddy



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:25 am    Post subject: Beating AIDS denialism Reply with quote

I guess the New England Journal of Medicine is in on the "AIDS conspiracy" too or maybe it isnt "Peer Reviewed"

content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/2/115
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puffdaddy



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:36 am    Post subject: Beating AIDS denialism Reply with quote

Definition of Koch's postulates

Koch's postulates: In 1890 the German physician and bacteriologist Robert Koch set out his celebrated criteria for judging whether a given bacteria is the cause of a given disease. Koch's criteria brought some much-needed scientific clarity to what was then a very confused field. Koch's Postulates are still used today for bacteria and other microbes.

Koch's postulates are as follows:

The bacteria must be present in every case of the disease.
The bacteria must be isolated from the host with the disease and grown in pure culture.
The specific disease must be reproduced when a pure culture of the bacteria is inoculated into a healthy susceptible host.
The bacteria must be recoverable from the experimentally infected host.
However, Koch's postulates have their limitations and so may not always be the last word. They may not hold if:

The particular bacteria (such as the one that causes leprosy) cannot be "grown in pure culture" in the laboratory.
There is no animal model of infection with that particular bacteria.
A harmless bacteria may cause disease if:

It has acquired extra virulence factors making it pathogenic.
It gains access to deep tissues via trauma, surgery, an IV line, etc.
It infects an immunocompromised patient.
Not all people infected by a bacteria may develop disease-subclinical infection is usually more common than clinically obvious infection.
Despite such limitations, Koch's postulates are still a useful benchmark in judging whether there is a cause-and-effect relationship between a bacteria (or any other type of microorganism) and a clinical disease.
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MichaelC



Joined: 06 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

""My neighbor and friend came down with the Human Immunodeficiency Retrovirus and his immune system failed and he is dead now. I suppose """

What was his story of talking pharma and/or recreational drugs? Or can you verify that 100%?

I'm sure your friend's case is different(as they all seem to be - lol), but in every single case I have been acquainted with the person either had a heavy history of rec drugs(including poppers and mj) or a long history of imuno-suppresive pharma drugs(including antibiotics and AZT,etc). Which indicated that the person was never healthy to start with.
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foo



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to take the chance here, puffdaddy, that you're really interested in investigating the subject, rather than just venting against people with whom you disagree.

Regarding your friend, please post the time frame and also which (if any) meds that he was taking.

Let's take this one step at a time. You said, "My neighbor and friend came down with the Human Immunodeficiency Retrovirus..." This suggests that he tested positive.

Please visit this site:

http://www.aliveandwell.org/

You will discover that the tests are worthless. There are 60-some conditions that will trigger a positive test.

Martin
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puffdaddy



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 506
Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:52 am    Post subject: Beating AIDS denialism Reply with quote

I know you are very distrustful of doctors, but at that time in my life I was a Family Doctor in a small Missouri town. This guy was gay. No history of drug abuse at all. He was my neighbor too. He was healthy and then began to have fungal infections and weight loss. His viral "load" was huge and his white blood cell count was almost gone. I initiated AZT and some other pharmaceutical cocktail that was being used at the time (I can't remember exactly) but after that his health improved dramatically and his viral load was so low it couldn't be calculated. He lived with AIDS or whatever for almost ten years. My guess is that the toxic meds finally got him, but I was convinced that the Virus was the cause and that the medications gave him a decade more of faily good quality of life. I thought the meds really helped him.
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puffdaddy



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Beating AIDS denialism Reply with quote

The year was 1997 or 1998. Went into Emergency Room medicine about 5 years ago. I got so sick and tired of writing scripts for people who would not take care of themselves. Seemed like nobody would eat right or exercise and all they wanted was a medicine to make them "better". Very very unrewarding and the system would not allow me to spend any kind of time with them, maybe 10 or 15 minutes. It sucked and I quit, but I never forgot my neighbors there.
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