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Episode 5: Mind Over Matter & the Tree of Knowledge
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Fintan
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject: Episode 5: Mind Over Matter & the Tree of Knowledge Reply with quote



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Last edited by Fintan on Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:52 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Ormond



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Location: Belly of the Beast, Texas

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good call on the reclaiming metaphysics, and the separtion bias of numbers science and metaphysics.

I recall that Einstein denied the existence of the old "luminiferous aether" concept due to his interpretation of the results of the lattr 19th century Michelson-Morley experiment. But he changed his mind after 1911.
Quote:

Einstein, 1920 address:

Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether.


Quote:
Einstein on Metaphysics and Science, 1944

I fully agree with you about the significance and educational value of methodology as well as history and philosophy of science. So many people today - and even professional scientists - seem to me like somebody who has seen thousands of trees but has never seen a forest. A knowledge of the historic and philosophical background gives that kind of independence from prejudices of his generation from which most scientists are suffering. This independence created by philosophical insight is - in my opinion - the mark of distinction between a mere artisan or specialist and a real seeker after truth.


The baby was thrown out with the bathwater during the early 20th century.
Possibly it was the influence of Sarte which encouraged the schism between 'hard' science and metaphysics for a few generations.
'Being and Nothingness' begins with the pre-supposition that 'what you see is what you get'. In other words, utter denial of metaphysics.
I suppose that's why none of Sarte's friends showed up at his funeral. After all, he believed dead is dead as a boot---so why bother?

The quest for understanding the scope of 'reality' is skewed if empirical observation is limited to mathematical interpretation alone.


Michelson-Morley:
1879 The Ether Wind Experiment


Ether and the Theory of Relativity

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marbles



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C'est bon
sorry but my french is very poor yet I've always love to hear it spoken. Within the last year I have felt that the english language (and perhaps others but english is the only one know) inhibits our thought procces in the way that it is structured. I have no data to back this up except my intuition that is.

a bit short but lovely non-the-less. Thanks

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Robert



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fintan,
More insightful visioning of the basis of the body in Life,which i've come to accept as your genius.

I find your description of the sunset and the naming somewhat naive though.
It doesn't address emotion.

To just see the sunset is plain enough to me,but there was a lot of cultural and emotional baggage to shed to see it.
And even more amazing perhaps you'll find is that the more simple pleasure you just see,the more you get.You don't just go to a beautiful place,you take your beauty to it.You carry it around.Your conscious beauty before thought.And it never slips away like a sunset,because you start to see it is me,my beauty which i have brought here.And since you don't attach,you know it will pass and the next moment will come.
And with experience you know you can't manifest your beauty in certain of humanities degraded or tempting areas.There's discrimination to be used,your own singular morality.
Is not this beauty ,in me(you) out of existence,before the beginning of the universe?
What makes you so sure consciousness is tied down to the speed of light?
Perhaps it's quicker?
Perhaps the material scientific brain of the speed of light will look like a form of autism somewhen in the future(i have an autistic half-brother:he loves lists and repeats!).
Perhaps the movement to transcend naming as a bind is in fact spacetravel?
That the unique experience of your own beauty(which you can never describe to another)is in fact your voyage into space,not a shuttle object spinning into a void out here.
Have you noticed when you close your eyes that the black is grainy?
And once you've seen darkness in a blacked out room,it has the same graininess.
And after awhile that the grains are always there,on a sunny day?
The more you look at the body,you'll see that the grains are in sound and touch....though it's harder to see in taste and smell!

Robert
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DeepLogos



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:15 am    Post subject: Simplicity = Complexity, Mirror image of eachother? Reply with quote

Excellent new installation of TreeIncarnation, Fintan!

Seldom do one get to grasp such an important and beautiful image of simplicity as in the the TreeIncarnation exploration, and this last installation furthers that exploration in a steady and "naked" manner. It reminds me of my strings of Aha-experiences in looking into Schwaller de Lubiz' explorations and theories following his excavation at the temple of Luxor, popularized by John Anthony West in the episode 'The Temple in Man' in his series 'Magical Egypt'. A simplicity expressed in a complex structure as a 'matter' of fact, a 'matter' of 'mind' and the fundamental 'mind' of 'matter'.

Wrapping my mind around the obvious simplicity is paradoxically quite difficult at times, given that the language of expressing these concepts has been comlexified to the point where we cannot ReCognize the core truths very easily anymore. The constant reuttering of memorized text-book explanation has only added to the complexity and removed us further from understanding the fundamentals of the universe. It has become an artificial intelligence hijacking the seat where real simple observations and intelligence should operate from, and indeed the very hijacking of metaphysics as such. Everything around us is probably science, and an understanding of the core principles/ outline of a possible unified theory is helpful in making out the many false constructs we operate within.

Language, in one way or the other, is the fundamental operator culturally, the way we define the universe around us based on a common learned or experienced point of reference, like naming the sunset. Emotions we experience when looking at the sunset is a reflection of our memory of previous experience and how they tie in to associating aspects of the sunset. If we did not name the sunset, but simply observed it as such, there would be no emotion. Emotion is a response of our extended aparatus of memory. Only when "pure" observation becomes operational and categrized as a sunset, is emotion a real and important aspect, as it fuels our own retrospection, introspection, contemplation and ability to connect and disconnect. But the desired outcome is never emotion, this is a western (mostly) misconception, but a deeper understanding of the workings of the micro-/macro cosmos (mirror images) and the ability to live according to the new level of understanding.

In trying to grasp the concept of 'holons' (Koestler), transcendence, evolution in general and the the entire spectrum of consciousness in relation to TreeIncarnation concepts, I found it useful to try to apply it to the quadrant theory of Ken Wilber:



One can clearly see the different aspects of existence reflecting eachother virtually. Collective reflecting individual, internal refelcting external, Intentional/cultural reflecting behavioral social and intentional/behavioral reflecting cultural/social. Every aspect of existence has its origin in 'origo' (0/non-duality?) and moves towards infinity in a transcend-and-include/ embrace-and-divide manner (revolution/counter-revolution) in all four virtual directions within a 3D reality, where macrocosmos reflect microcosmos, and virtual/holograpic (mind) reflects it's counterpart and continual creation, matter. It is a constant process of reorganization (Tr[Re]eIncarnation) and entrophy (return to energy), but the driving force, mind itself (micro and macro), reorganizes faster and faser, it seems, as it becomes more and more conscious of itself, and thus contributes to our growing understanding of the universe that surrounds and is within us.

Our current problem is that we have grown into a matrix which limits this understanding and an operating language that enforces this matrix. To ensure further growth, as in becoming more and more conscious, we must break free from this structure and realize the limits of the current operating language, so to speak. Complex ideas do not set you free, simple ones do, and as your understanding grows, more and more will appear simple, not because everything is inherently complex, but simply beacuse you realize the basic simplicity of everything. Understanding the universe (what/how) is very possible, making sense of it (why) will probably lead to madness? Rather than exploring 'why' we must continue to explore 'what and how'.

One final thought/ suggestion: The brain has two halves that physically mirror eachother, but functionally "oppose" eachother (general paradigm). Would this mean, given that there are so many practices/ technologies that aim "synchronize" the two halves, that we are trying to "make" them mirror eachother virtually (operating as one integrated unit functionally)? Getting rid of the final remnats of bicameralism and evolving to the next level both physically (pineal gland?) and mentally (consciousness). A 'conscious' act to trigger a physical function in the brain, and perhaps further understand the basics of heart, stomack, cells and DNA as it pertains to mind, consciousness and emotion?

As I was writing this, I occatinally felt that I was lacking the language to describe something that I feel/know to be simple. I observe this simplicity every day, yet when I am trying to articulate it/ operate it I am left with a feeling that maybe what I wrote contains explanations that doesn't quite mirror what I had/ have in mind. I think I can "see" the stucture now, at least the outline of it.... A weird sensation...

Anyway, I hope this, if anything, will trigger som synapses in other people with a more developed operating language... Wink

-EAK--- Arrow Idea

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Robert



Joined: 07 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok,
Quote:
Emotions we experience when looking at the sunset is a reflection of our memory of previous experience and how they tie in to associating aspects of the sunset.

The merest tinge is needed to alert my body and use my memory to remember that 99% chance is the sunset is not a fireball coming at me and ending my survival.A survival memory.Nothing a fox doesn't use.
But if humans only use emotion like that....
("if we could just see the sunset" is like asking an addict why he just doesn't stop being silly.)

We'd all see a lot more of the glimpses Fintan sees,if we weren't all sabotaged continuously by emotion.
George and the Dragon is a real myth.Man being noble.


Robert
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Ozregeneration



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Simplicity = Complexity, Mirror image of eachother? Reply with quote

DeepLogos wrote:
Language, in one way or the other, is the fundamental operator culturally, the way we define the universe around us based on a common learned or experienced point of reference, like naming the sunset. Emotions we experience when looking at the sunset is a reflection of our memory of previous experience and how they tie in to associating aspects of the sunset. If we did not name the sunset, but simply observed it as such, there would be no emotion. Emotion is a response of our extended aparatus of memory. Only when "pure" observation becomes operational and categrized as a sunset, is emotion a ‘real’ and important aspect, as it fuels our own retrospection, introspection, contemplation and ability to connect and disconnect. But the desired outcome is never emotion, this is a western (mostly) misconception, but a deeper understanding of the workings of the micro-/macro cosmos (mirror images) and the ability to live according to the new level of understanding.

It reminds me of how one can live in the now by not living a life based on the memories of the past and the anticipation of the future.

So when we label a sunset as such it associates with it all the emotions we have had about a sunset, from the past, both good and bad. This is why it is so difficult for many people to make conscious choices as they always bring on board their past. So we say, oh I can't do that, because last time I did that, x happened and I wouldn't want that to happen again. If we are then able to just look at what is before us without even referring to what has happened in the past and just choose, we are then living in the now.
DeepLogos wrote:
As I was writing this, I occatinally felt that I was lacking the language to describe something that I feel/know to be simple. I observe this simplicity every day, yet when I am trying to articulate it/ operate it I am left with a feeling that maybe what I wrote contains explanations that doesn't quite mirror what I had/ have in mind. I think I can "see" the stucture now, at least the outline of it.... A weird sensation...

Amen to this dude, I know exactly where you are coming from.
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DeepLogos



Joined: 01 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply...
Robert wrote:
The merest tinge is needed to alert my body and use my memory to remember that 99% chance is the sunset is not a fireball coming at me and ending my survival.A survival memory.Nothing a fox doesn't use.
But if humans only use emotion like that....

Many automatic operators are instantly activated that we needn't think through when looking at the sunset, that is obvious, survival memory and categorization being two. Emotion is not only memory, but the memory of previous sunsets very often generates emotion that seems to interfere, as you point out, with the direct experience of a particular sunset. But as you observe the sunset, and different images of sunsets (and other thoughts) with attached emotions to them drift by, these memories and emotions act as a nessecary, and indeed unavoidable, 'doorway' to the desired singularity of pure observation. The key to make memories, thoughts and emotions subside is the operating language, but in this regard it is not in using your language to name, categorize, judge and label what you experience within as you observe, but rather letting what is being observed "speak" it's language to you, and thus to a greater and greater extent become able to observe things for what they are and not what we label them as. It is indeed an "exercise" in "deprogramming" and looking at things in a fresh perspective, but is always initiated by what we feel and remember.

Being an open system, the human brain/mind, faced with heavy input, will always either break down or reorganize itself on a higher level. Both neurology psychology and evolution shows this. This is usually experienced through overwhelming challenges in real life (macro/micro) and being stuck in patterns of thought and emotion that you either manage to work your way through or succumb to. On the other hand, if you, through an "exercise" like the one above (a natural process, really) gradually change your operating language, and thus also change the patterns of thought and emotion you are stuck in, it goes a long way in alleviating the conflict and symptoms associated with memory/emotion dependancy. And I don't think "I'm asking an addict to stop being silly"... If you begin any attempt to simply observe with the question; " Now how do I do this...?", you are at once activating your memory and emotions associated with previous failed attempts. Observing (without judgement) both what is infront of you and the emotions/memories that arise within you, is something quite different... As for foxes, they usually act naturally, that is more than we can say for humans... Wink

DL wrote:
If we did not name the sunset, but simply observed it as such, there would be no emotion.


Hypothetically, in the moment, as a part of explaning the connection between what is being observed and the one observing....

My intention is not being banal or utopian, I am simply trying to adress core concepts as I see and have experienced them in relation to Fintans work, and try to input your feedback as to emotion.
Smile
----------------------------------------

Ozregeneration wrote:
It reminds me of how one can live in the now by not living a life based on the memories of the past and the anticipation of the future."


Amen to that right back.... Exactly my point. And it benefits, for instance, the work we are trying to do here.

-EAK-

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Robert



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deep Logos,

I have little argument with what you write about or with Fintan in what he said.
What i am questioning is the what seems to me the superficial response to how we all start just looking at the sunset.
I see you both as underestimating the scale of the problem.
The addict statement was not directed at you,but as a way to express what i saw as naivety in approaching our illness.
I don't doubt Fintan has useful things to say on this subject,but i felt that his description of a solution(all you have to do is just see the sunset)was glib.


Knowing what enlightenment is and practically living it every moment are two very different things.
My experience is people who discuss sunsets as philosphical concepts rarely look at them.
It was my way of saying Fintan you can do better than that.

Robert
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DeepLogos



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point taken and well received... Smile

I absolutely get where you are coming from, Robert.

I am trying to look at it in a practical way though, and it sure is not easy to just watch the sunset. I may be explaining myself into a corner in trying to articulate a methodical basis for something that philosophically/ conceptually negates a methodical approach (in my view).

In my personal meditations I have felt what at least seems like a oneness with what I observe, not all the time, but occationally. And this may be the "easy" part of it, sitting quietly removed from what is everyday life, just observing. Translating this into a whole new way of looking at things, attempting to rock the very fundament of each and everyones personal and cultural paradigm, may be a tad utopian and somewhat of a thought construct, I recognize that.

In our world of emotional addiction, I feel that at least trying to occationally get a glimps of the practical reality behind this philosophical concept has some value attached to it. But, as you put it (paraphrasing), "just doing it" may be a naîve approach to our illness.

Achieving at least a first taste, so to speak, of a world where we control emotions and thoughts, not the other way around is the core of my argument and a crucial next step, I feel, in our accelerating process towards (hopefully) a new way of viewing the world around us and at least recognizing the reality of the "disease" we suffer from.

I appreciate your input on this. I am always curious as to how other people approach these aspects of reality.

-EAK-

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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally had a chance to listen to this episode for a second time undisturbed - bam. light bulb.

damn dude. you did it again. blew my mind wide open.

Suddenly my awareness has a function and a 'location' in the in/out process of the universal mind matter mechanism.

I find myself examining my field of awareness and having the sensation of 'sucking' order in out of chaos.

Or feeling like my attention is a 'membrane' through which the universe is recycling itself. Just boggling.

Considering my attention as the 'in-breath' to the exhale of the life force unfolding as matter is as astounding as it is resonant.

Now I know what happens if a tree falls in the forest with no one to observe it. Until the ripple effects of the event are observed, matter just holds it's breath.

Anyway, thanks again for another triple banana split for the brain.
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Jerry Fletcher



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting word - kind of describes the 'de-branching' quality of awareness.

Quote:

schema

n 1: an internal representation of the world; an organization of concepts and actions that can be revised by new information about the world [syn: scheme] 2: a schematic or preliminary plan [syn: outline, scheme]



Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University



From: schema - Definitions from Dictionary.com
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/schema



Quote:

Schema


Description

A schema is a mental structure we use to organize and simplify our knowledge of the world around us. We have schemas about ourselves, other people, mechanical devices, food, and in fact almost everything.

Schemas can be related to one another, sometimes in a hierarchy (so a salesman is a man is a human). 

Schemas affect what we notice, how we interpret things and how we make decisions and act. They act like filters, accentuating and downplaying various elements. We use them to classify things, such as when we ‘pigeon-hole’ people. They also help us forecast, predicting what will happen. We even remember and recall things via schemas, using them to ‘encode’ memories.

Schemas appear very often in the attribution of cause. The multiple necessary cause schema is one where we require at least two causes before a ‘fit’ to the schema is declared.

Schemas are often shared within cultures, allowing short-cut communications. Every word is, in effect, a schema, as when you read it you receive a package of additional inferred information.

From: Schema
http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/schema.htm
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