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indigitydogdignation
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 313
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 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Grumpy, nver mind your blustering and stoic veneer, let's go back to what you've in this thread said and how it squares with the harsh realities of 9-11.
| Quote: | | Indigity: Earlier in this thread you were very confident that chemical traces, detonators, wires and other signs of foul play would have been found if explosives had been used, and now you can't name a single outfit that made any realistic effort to even look for them! |
Care to correct me?
You might be one of the most evasive persons I've encountered on this board. What d'ya say? |
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Grumpy
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 876
Location: NC USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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indigitydogdignation
see post here...No need to repeat or evade.
http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3477
Grumpy 
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Wheel yourself out in the streets and demand the truth from these dumbshits.
O dear, taken to drinking and swallowing the pain tablets together eh Grumpy? aAzzAa |
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indigitydogdignation
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 313
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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...continued from the other thread, http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3477 (which Grumpy stretched to double width by posting a largely unnecessary picture.
"600 NYPD detectives, 50 FBI personnel and many members from the department of sanitation working tirelessly at Fresh Kills landfill" weren't exactly looking at structural steel, at least not according to the article you posted.
The steel went to four places for processing, apparently:
| Quote: | http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/WTC_apndxD.htm
Four salvage yards were contracted to process WTC steel:
Hugo Nue Schnitzer at Fresh Kills (FK) Landfill, Staten Island, NJ
Hugo Nue Schnitzer's Claremont (CM) Terminal in Jersey City, NJ
Metal Management in Newark (NW), NJ
Blanford and Co. in Keasbey (KB), NJ |
...what about the other sites, which is not to say I'd necessarily believe what I hear about any of them. "600" police officers and "50" FBI would be passing suspicious materials on their superiors... Mostly, they were sifting through debris and looking for human remains, and, yes, they found rings and other small personal items, but you can't convince me that wires, detonators and other remnants of explosives would have been spotted amongst thousands of tons of electrial debris of one sort or another, expecially since the most commonplace materials could have been used. Again, please tell me how these things could have survived the blasts they were associated with in the first place?
| Quote: | | Grumpy: Establishing the cause WAS their only responsibility. They thought(foolishly, it turns out) that anyone with a lick of good sense would be able to understand that once the point of "Global Instability" was reached, no force available could have stopped those collapses. Just as an aircraft crash investigation usually ends with a phrase like"...and then the aircraft contacted the ground." Establishing the technical cause is what NIST did, they have been doing the same types of investigations for decades and they are very good at their job. |
...and
| Quote: | | Grumpy: You forgot explosively cut steel beams, the most obvious and easily detected sign. None were found, IE no explosives. |
Since you know how I feel about the collapses, that very few charges would have been needed to complete the destruction once initiated, (WTC7 being a more likely exception,) I wouldn't have expected many signs, nor would I have expected a typical controlled demolition.
We're told no one was killed in the WTC7 collapse and I strongly suspect the authorities used this as an excuse not to investigate the wtc7 steel as they should have, or as you believe they did with the towers, yet the only inspections we're aware of at this point are debris inspections, that you've mentioned several times. The selections of structural steel by WTC BPS and SEAoNY were made strictly on account of the temperatures they were likely exposed to, using signs of conventional fire as their yardstick.
What inspections were taking place at ground zero? With so many peices of structural steel ripped apart, splayed, snapped or bent in odd ways, you'd think at least a few peices would have been set aside for closer examination???
No? Maybe those peices didn't go to Freshkills, with "600" police officers and "50" FBI agents on hand. Who knows, maybe they did. It's important to remember that anything that looked suspicious would go right to the top of the food chain, set aside for "further study." |
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Peter
Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 2214
Location: The Canadian shield
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: Compressed air or hot air? |
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I have to wonder at the selectivity of air as regards its chosen "points" of egress.
A floor descends as it "pancakes" but no windows are shattered to allow the air to escape as the floor descends before impacting the lower floor except certain windows at various levels from just below to far below the "pancaking" floors. Seems more likely that you would get an immediate release or if I understand about the "louvers" that were present that at each mechanical floor there would be a massive escape of the compressed air.
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The grand design, reflected in the face of Chaos. |
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Grumpy
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 876
Location: NC USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Peter
| Quote: | I have to wonder at the selectivity of air as regards its chosen "points" of egress.
A floor descends as it "pancakes" but no windows are shattered to allow the air to escape as the floor descends before impacting the lower floor except certain windows at various levels from just below to far below the "pancaking" floors. Seems more likely that you would get an immediate release or if I understand about the "louvers" that were present that at each mechanical floor there would be a massive escape of the compressed air. |
What is there to wonder about, the air escaped through the paths of least resistance, where ever they were(down elevator, stairway or ventilation shafts, through broken windows and vents).
indigitydogdignation
I feel your indignation.
| Quote: | The steel went to four places for processing, apparently:
Quote:
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/WTC_apndxD.htm
Four salvage yards were contracted to process WTC steel:
Hugo Nue Schnitzer at Fresh Kills (FK) Landfill, Staten Island, NJ
Hugo Nue Schnitzer's Claremont (CM) Terminal in Jersey City, NJ
Metal Management in Newark (NW), NJ
Blanford and Co. in Keasbey (KB), NJ
...what about the other sites, which is not to say I'd necessarily believe what I hear about any of them. "600" police officers and "50" FBI would be passing suspicious materials on their superiors... Mostly, they were sifting through debris and looking for human remains, and, yes, they found rings and other small personal items, but you can't convince me that wires, detonators and other remnants of explosives would have been spotted amongst thousands of tons of electrial debris of one sort or another, expecially since the most commonplace materials could have been used. Again, please tell me how these things could have survived the blasts they were associated with in the first place? |
You are aware that 99% of the steel had absolutely no evidentiary value, are you not??? The steel was examined TWICE on site, that steel that was simply scrap was handled differently than the steel that was selected as evidence. All the selected steel(as I understand) was sent to Fresh Kills where it was again examined. All other debris removed from the site(over 600,000 tons of it) was sent to the Fresh Kills site where it was examined numerous times, sifted and examined again and again, until the output was as fine as sand. Sorry, but that is the best humans can do.
| Quote: | | What inspections were taking place at ground zero? With so many peices of structural steel ripped apart, splayed, snapped or bent in odd ways, you'd think at least a few peices would have been set aside for closer examination??? |
You mean like this...
or this...
or this...
| Quote: | | Large pieces of steel...recovered from the World Trade Center site...are preserved in Hangar 17 of Kennedy International Airport. There are about 1,350 pieces of steel, many weighing over 30 tons. (Photo by Lane Johnson) |
http://www.amny.com/entertainment/news/am-wtcrelics-pg2006,0,6613706.photogallery?
| Quote: | | It's important to remember that anything that looked suspicious would go right to the top of the food chain, set aside for "further study." |
That is what I have been saying, yet no evidence of explosives(which ALWAYS survive the blast) was ever found. One of the summer jobs I had in school was picking up the blasting caps and attached wires after blasting while building a road. The ends of the caps were almost always still attached to the wires. We had to clear them from the site(they would destroy the bearings on the bull dozer tracks), make sure none failed to detonate(counted before and after), and jam up the rock crusher. The FBI is able to find pieces of bombs and detonators, even in bombed aircraft like at Lockerby, do you really think they would ignore them while sifting debris from 911???
During the whole investigation of 911, not one bit of evidence of the use of explosives was found. While I do not think the FBI or any other lettered agency always does the right thing, I also don't think that every member of all the agencies, companies, police, firemen and steelworkers is a traitor covering up for conspirators in our gov't. The facts say that everything we saw on 911 was caused by the impacts and the fires caused by them, though in science, nothing can be proven to 100%, the physics say the "Most Probable Cause" was the planes.
Grumpy
_________________
Wheel yourself out in the streets and demand the truth from these dumbshits.
O dear, taken to drinking and swallowing the pain tablets together eh Grumpy? aAzzAa |
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Peter
Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 2214
Location: The Canadian shield
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: Say again? |
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| Grumpy wrote: | Peter
| Quote: | I have to wonder at the selectivity of air as regards its chosen "points" of egress.
A floor descends as it "pancakes" but no windows are shattered to allow the air to escape as the floor descends before impacting the lower floor except certain windows at various levels from just below to far below the "pancaking" floors. Seems more likely that you would get an immediate release or if I understand about the "louvers" that were present that at each mechanical floor there would be a massive escape of the compressed air. |
What is there to wonder about, the air escaped through the paths of least resistance, where ever they were(down elevator, stairway or ventilation shafts, through broken windows and vents).Grumpy |
Just that the ones that happened lower before the ones that happened closer to the "pancake" effect. That the air could make it to that lower location first and having released the pressure, found the energy to climb back up those shafts to exit higher up....
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The grand design, reflected in the face of Chaos. |
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Grumpy
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 876
Location: NC USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Peter
| Quote: | | Just that the ones that happened lower before the ones that happened closer to the "pancake" effect. That the air could make it to that lower location first and having released the pressure, found the energy to climb back up those shafts to exit higher up.... |
The air that escaped lower down, did not have to climb back up, once the collapse started the air pressure would only get higher until at the end it's average escape velocity was ~450 mph, with places reaching over the speed of sound(as per Bazant, et al). Where it escaped and when it appeared outside the building was entirely dependent on what the path of least resistance was from moment to moment, another of those chaotic and unpredictable effects NIST said they were unable to explain in detail. Maybe a falling elevator was responsible for the lower puff of smoky, dusty air, maybe it went down an air conditioning vent to that lower level, who can say why. But, due to the complete absence of evidence for explosives, we can rule that out.
Grumpy
_________________
Wheel yourself out in the streets and demand the truth from these dumbshits.
O dear, taken to drinking and swallowing the pain tablets together eh Grumpy? aAzzAa |
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Peter
Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 2214
Location: The Canadian shield
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: More of a "mull" hypothesis.... |
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Sorry Grumpster, the speculation and the proving a negation just doesn't gibe with the observation. Still, Occam's razor can be in need of a good stropping from time to time. I still am having a tough time with the louvers on the mechanical floors as they were not even much involved in the production of the dust "ejecta".
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The grand design, reflected in the face of Chaos. |
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indigitydogdignation
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 313
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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I googled "are preserved in Hangar 17 of Kennedy International Airport. There are about 1,350 pieces of steel, many weighing over 30 tons" and didn't have to read very far to find this:
| Quote: | | http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2873: And nestled against the Koenig globe is a truly horrible object: a charred and pitted lump of fused concrete, melted steel, carbonized furniture and less recognizable elements, a meteorite-like mass that no human force could have forged, but which was in fact created by the fiery demise of the towers. |
The author gives a colorful portrayal of his visit to Freshkills. He draws what he sees. What's with the melted steel? You've gone the distance on this area of inquiry, Grumpy, so maybe you can tell us what this melted steel meant to the investigators? Don't misunderstand my intentions; millions of truthers have turned melted steel into a red herring of sorts, since the os claims the steel need only have been sufficiently weakened to cause the collapse, (nowhere near melting temperature,) yet the pools of melted steel that reportedly showed on infrared cams from the pit area might tell their own story, and I've never ruled out the possibility that thermite/thermate could have been used, even in collapse initiation. I'm sure you've seen the famous pictures and video of molten sparks dripping from a corner of WTC2 just before the collapse, and at the point of collapse? What do you say about that?
Some of your information is new to me, but I'm not convinced any genuine efforts would have been made to record or catalogue any suspicious findings.
This picture powerfully depicts the calamity of the collapse.
If this can happen then most anything can happen, making it all the more easy to justify suspicious objects to the myriads of lower-level law enforcement and alphabet agency workers. It doesn't take a massive conspiracy to keep people in line, especially in the wake of heart-wrenching disasters that pull everyone's strings in the same direction. An effective conspiracy requires only a few people in the right places. The better half of the 9-11 truth movement will tell you only 200-300 people were needed; media managers, publishers, political leaders, industry leaders, a few high-level military and intel, 9-11 commission members, 9-11 truth shills, etc. In all these important areas innocent persons are working with the most nefarious insiders without even knowing it, even at the highest levels of government and security. Any issues are open for debate, so long as discussions stay within certain parameters, areas of contention where no true insiders in their right minds would discourage anyone from doing or saying what comes naturally to career-minded lackeys and fools. Anyone smart enough to see the big picture will know their boundaries, but denial is the first and most natural response. |
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Grumpy
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 876
Location: NC USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: |
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indigitydogdignation
| Quote: | | The author gives a colorful portrayal of his visit to Freshkills. He draws what he sees. What's with the melted steel? |
"Colorful" is an apt description. Molten steel is not.
There was never any molten steel puddles found anywhere on the WTC site, all such reports were in error. Hot, yes. Glowing, yes. But molten, no. The hotspots were all well below the 1500C temp at which steel melts.
The photos above are probably what the reporter was talking(and exaggerating) about. In the closeup you can see carpet and paper, materials that would have burned to ash at anything approaching the melting point of steel. They were COMPRESSED into these "Meteorites" that were removed from the basement areas of both towers(600,000 tons of it). This is the remains of at least three floors, compressed into a few feet.
As to the glowing METAL flowing from two, I really don't know. NIST speculated it was molten aluminum from the aircraft, but since their report came out I found out that there was a UPS(Uninterpretable Power Supply) consisting of a whole room filled with large lead/acid batteries on that floor, in that area. This UPS contained TONS of lead, which, in a fire, would melt and flow like what was seen. But, again, I do not know that for a fact, just that it makes more sense than aluminum or steel. The extremely bright glow in that corner could have been those batteries shorting out as well, who knows???
Grumpy
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Wheel yourself out in the streets and demand the truth from these dumbshits.
O dear, taken to drinking and swallowing the pain tablets together eh Grumpy? aAzzAa |
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indigitydogdignation
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 313
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:52 am Post subject: |
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I might agree that this picture shows no apparent signs of melted steel, or at least none that I can discern, but I'm not sure if the author is refering to the same object. I've never been completely sold on the pools of molten steel at the bottom of the pit, but as I said, they might tell a story of their own.
The other item of interest I mentioned is far less ambiguous. At a certain point just prior to the collapse of WTC2 molten metal began dripping in very noticable quantities from a corner of the building, and exactly at the height where the collapse occured on that side. You've probably seen the video but here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wVLeKwSkXA
I tried to find a version without commentary, but if you wish to react to Steven Jones' remarks about the event, by all means do. |
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Grumpy
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 876
Location: NC USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: |
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indigitydogdignation
| Quote: | | The other item of interest I mentioned is far less ambiguous. At a certain point just prior to the collapse of WTC2 molten metal began dripping in very noticable quantities from a corner of the building, and exactly at the height where the collapse occured on that side. You've probably seen the video but here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wVLeKwSkXA |
As I posted elswhere, there was a UPS with several tons of lead acid batteries in that area. If they were involved in the fires that would be a source for melted lead, which could be the metal seen, I don't presume to know, but it appears more likely than aluminum, and is certainly possible, unlike molten steel.
I have no comments about Professor Jones' work other than to say he needed a new gig after cold fusion went bust.
Grumpy
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Wheel yourself out in the streets and demand the truth from these dumbshits.
O dear, taken to drinking and swallowing the pain tablets together eh Grumpy? aAzzAa |
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indigitydogdignation
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 313
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Interesting. Lower left are six angle cuts on columns that could only be perimeter (two tridents,) from the level at which the lower exterior column pattern terminated. From that point upward only I-beams were used for the perimeter, as far as I know. Why were these columns cut this way? Were GZ workers instructed to torch peices of steel diagonally? Either that or the more likely scenario that thermite/thermate or the like was used in GZ cleanup. Complicates the picture just a little, wouldn't you say?
Note the angle-cut box column at the back of the room, topmost in the pic. Is it on it's own or part of another columnn tree, like the six in the foreground?
More hanger 17 pics can be found here: http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/hanger17.html
and here: http://www.amny.com/entertainment/news/am-wtcrelics-pg2006,0,6613706.photogallery
Sections of perimeter stood amidst the rubble at GZ, and it stands to reason that angle cuts could have been used on these for easier disassembly. So why were so many of these perimeter peices (tridents) saved? For a monument?
There's an obvious problem here: If any angle cuts were found that might have been suspicious, they'd have been mixed in with routine angle cuts made during the cleanup.
| Quote: | | Grumpy: There was never any molten steel puddles found anywhere on the WTC site, all such reports were in error. Hot, yes. Glowing, yes. But molten, no. The hotspots were all well below the 1500C temp at which steel melts. |
Temperature of the hotspots notwithstanding, (what area(s) were they measuring exactly, and how,) here's a statement that I can't easily ignore. |
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stallion4
Joined: 26 May 2006
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Grumpy
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: |
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indigitydogdignation
Angle cuts are used on standing steel for the same reason angle cuts are used to fell trees, safety. It prevents kickback.
Thermite/thermate is never used for precision cutting of steel. Without heavy containers it is useless for cutting sideways, and those heavy containers were not found in the rubble. Nor were puddles of slag.
The tridend sections were at the bottom. The single columns transitioned to trident sections just above street level.
Grumpy
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O dear, taken to drinking and swallowing the pain tablets together eh Grumpy? aAzzAa |
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