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Interesting Ron Paul Update
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PatrickSMcNally



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 846

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Amazed Reply with quote

paradox wrote:
I'm amazed by the level of resistance to RP's ideas


As a 14-year old I was amazed that so many people could rally around what looked like an obvious clown when Ronald Reagan ran in 1980. But it happened, and Ron Paul was part of it. I certainly would never vote for someone like that. But you'll get over being amazed. After watching Reagan's presidency for the first term I had definitely gotten over being amazed by the time 1984 came around. In any event, people should be aware that there are other alternative candidates out there, and then they can make their own choice as they see fit:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jan2004/stat-j27.shtml
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paradox



Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally, we are getting so 'good' insights into what this RP 'phenomenon' is.

As a first note, I'm wondering if DrewTerry has the Universal Dictionary of Negative Connotations. As I look for the definition into 'lead' upheld by Answers.com (we could argue about the value of that), the short phrase summary of 'lead' is 'to show the way'. That is what I take as definition also.

Good, I won't even attempt to define. Socrates has shown the futility of such efforts by refutation of people smarter then I was. He found no one could tell him what good is. I'll take it, under the most general, wide, ambiguous definition, which you can all create by yourselves. Good, positive, of the better kind, whatever rocks your boat.

If you insist that there is no such thing as a 'good leader', under any circumstances, that there have never been any in all history, that any and all people that have 'shown the way' are all, universally and without exception trying to deceive, only for their own personal gain or ego inflation, I don't think we will reach understanding easily.

If you do admit, that there have been people 'showing us the way' in different fields, that have done so, while helping others, helping themselves also, or, perish the though, that have acted on pure giving impulses, so minuscule as to even fit into one hand, then their rarity is all the more an impulse to seek an individual possessing of these qualities.

Fintan, a leader?
________
CALIFORNIA MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARY


Last edited by paradox on Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paradox wrote:
Finally, we are getting so 'good' insights into what this RP 'phenomenon' is.

As a first note, I'm wondering if DrewTerry has the Universal Dictionary of Negative Connotations. As I look for the definition into 'lead' upheld by Answers.com (we could argue about the value of that), the short phrase summary of 'lead' is 'to show the way'. That is what I take as definition also.

Good, I won't even attempt to define. Socrates has shown the futility of such efforts by refutation of people smarter then I was. He found no one could tell him what good is. I'll take it, under the most general, wide, ambiguous definition, which you can all create by yourselves. Good, positive, of the better kind, whatever rocks your boat.

If you insist that there is no such thing as a 'good leader', under any circumstances, that there have never been any in all history, that any and all people that have 'shown the way' are all, universally and without exception trying to deceive, only for their own personal gain or ego inflation, I don't think we will reach understanding easily.

If you do admit, that there have been people 'showing us the way' in different fields, that have done so, while helping others, helping themselves also, or, perish the though, that have acted on pure giving impulses, so minuscule as to even fit into one hand, then their rarity is all the more an impulse to seek an individual possessing of these qualities.

Fintan, a leader?

You are entirely missing my point:

What I am saying about "good" is the same reason Socrates could not define it - it has too many different meanings to different people & at different times during periods of history. I am saying there are much better words than "good" if we wish to describe the qualities we want in a "leader."

Good, bad or indifferent we are still left with the question "what is a leader?"

A leader will lead people but where are they going and to whose benefit will it accrue?

Quote:
Look at the synonyms for the word:

chief,
head,
principal;
commander,
captain;
superior,
headman;
chairman,
chairwoman,
chairperson,
chair;
(managing) director,
CEO,
manager,
superintendent,
supervisor,
overseer,
administrator,
employer,
master,
mistress;
president,
premier,
governor;
ruler,
monarch,
king,
queen,
sovereign,
emperor;

Are these words that could be used to describe the roles in which we will find effective leaders?

NO WAY!

BTW - I have no aversion, obsession or exclusivity on negative connotations.

As I said before, I do not need anyone to lead me anywhere I am not going anyway.

Leaders don't take care of people.

Leaders are in in for the power and control that has accrued to themselves by way of a leadership position - that is why absolute power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Thats just my point of view. Not here to argue that it should be the way anyone else looks at it (or anything else I write about, for that matter).
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Dictionary

leadership
noun

the action of leading a group of people or an organization : different styles of leadership.
• the state or position of being a leader : the leadership of the party.
• the leaders of an organization, country, etc. : a change of leadership had become desirable.
• the ability to lead skillfully : they hailed DuPont's courage and leadership.


If you were to think of another word for "leadership" would these be on the list?

Quote:
Thesaurus

leadership

noun

1. firm leadership

guidance,
direction,
control,
management,
superintendence,
supervision;
organization,
government.

2. the leadership of the Rainbow Coalition

directorship,
governorship,
governance,
administration,
captaincy,
control,
ascendancy,
supremacy,
rule,
command,
power,
dominion,
influence.

See what I am saying?

It is all right in front of our eyes - if and when we are willing to see.
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paradox



Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I see is that there are many possible way to interpret a word. And so on the lexical confusion, so on these post Babel times, the confusion between my idea and intent, the word, your lexical map and all that.

In essence then, you have determined that all form of leader and leadership is bad, and when ever you see that word, you bring in the most negative out of it.

I view that leadership is subservient when derived from the 'First shall be last', as that we are all submitted to God, the Universal Energy, the Universe, etc. It is when those values are inverted, that the leadership thinks of themselves 'above', then problems occur.

I perceive there are two distinct and different words merged into one. In truth, we say 'leader', but should say 'leader' and 'misleader'

I view that Fintan is a leader. So was Tesla. Gandhi. Jesus, historical or astrological, still gave us valuable teachings, and is a leader in that sense. I'm sure you could think of a few more. All of them have power and are using it wisely.

And to the limit that I reach people around me, I seek to empower them also to look in themselves, overcome their lapses, bring them good and joy. In my view still, you are a leader when it comes to talking about the Maya calendar. You 'show me the way' through your exploration, you guide me by skipping the boring, redundant to share with me what you see as the most valuable.

As many fields of endeavor the humans attempts, as many leaders of both kind you will find. Our task is for us all to lead and choose to be lead wisely.
________
fat girl Cams


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Blaz



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

---

deleted


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Blaz



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have a table with four legs.

First leg is an individual. Person is an interlace of its micro and macro cosmos. "Chakras" on the inside and personal interaction on the outside.

Second leg is the society. Does it flourish, is it cooperative, is there a common spirit, evolution towards common good?

Third leg is the environment. Which has and will surround us. Disturb it as little as possible.

Fourth is the economy, manipulation of the environment through production and service process.

---------

I could elaborate, but for me here's the basic of political thinking as it should be.

Through learning to keep the drop of water on the slippery table
one could probably become educated enough for a temporary leadership.

---------

Another practical visualisation would be through Liebig's law of the Minimum.

So what are your deficiencies of Today?

Food?
Water?
Light?
Peace?
Love?
Sexualiy?
Touch?
Understanding?
Happiness?
Clear thoughts?
Meditations?
Creativity?
Happy children?
Freedom of movement?
Freedom of learning and learning and learning?
Smile?

And what are overabundances in your and our lives?

False media?
Propaganda?
War industry?
Chemical industry?
Food manipulation?
Inequality of distribution of wealth?
Hate and disrespect?
False politics?
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paradox wrote:
All I see is that there are many possible way to interpret a word. And so on the lexical confusion, so on these post Babel times, the confusion between my idea and intent, the word, your lexical map and all that.

In essence then, you have determined that all form of leader and leadership is bad, and when ever you see that word, you bring in the most negative out of it.

Whoa! Hold on a second...

First, this is NOT about me. What I think is irrelevant.

This is about the meaning of the word, in this case the word "leadership" and its numerous interpretations.

If we agree that Fintan, Ghandi & Tesla are all examples of leadership in their own way;

What words on that list synonymous with the word "leadership" can we use to describe Fintan, Ghandi & Tesla?
Quote:
leadership

guidance,
direction,
control,
management,
superintendence,
supervision;
organization,
government.
directorship,
governorship,
governance,
administration,
captaincy,
control,
ascendancy,
supremacy,
rule,
command,
power,
dominion,
influence.
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just0



Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 654

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I Butt in here? Thanking you !! Shocked Shocked Shocked
Just want to insert a partially related sidenote here...

Gary Mentioned Binary Econoimcs a few posts back...
theres more for anyone who's interested here;
http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=23951#23951

OK as you where Wink Exclamation

_________________
~"“True observation begins when devoid of set patterns, and freedom of expression occurs when one is beyond systems.”"~
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paradox



Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is about the meaning of the word, in this case the word "leadership" and its numerous interpretations.



From wikipedia
Quote:

James MacGregor Burns

James MacGregor Burns (1978, p. 2) wrote that a study of the definition of the word leadership revealed 130 definitions. However, several generally-accepted variations on the definition appear in the management and leadership literature.

Burns concluded by presenting five characteristics of leadership, namely:

1. Leadership is collective (p. 452). James Burns regards the notion of one-person leadership as ?a contradiction in terms?, because both leaders and followers must exist. Also, an organization may have multiple leaders all acting in consort with one another.
2. Leadership is dissension (p. 453). Burns claims that leadership coexists with dissent. Indeed, much of the growth of any organization centers on the management/leadership of dissent ? except in times of war.
3. Leadership is causative (p. 454). True Burnsian leadership affects the motives of individuals and groups of peoples and alters the course of the organizational history. It causes positive change.
4. Leadership is morally purposeful (p. 455). Burns sees leadership as goal-oriented, with leaders and followers pointing the way to some future state of the organization with plans about how those goals might be met.
5. Transforming leadership is elevating (p. 455). Engagement between leaders and followers takes place on a moral ? but not a moralistic - plane, as both leaders and followers rise to live more principled lives.


Quote:

George Terry (Terry, G. 1960) has defined leadership as: "the activity of influencing people to strive willingly for group objectives".


There's a whole lot more to be said about that definition and I'm sure about the 130 other definitions which we could find from 1980 to now the same holds true.

So you see, we could argue endlessly about what a 'leader' is. You'll have your, partial definition, and I'll have mine just as invalid. Unless of course our minds are large enough to grasp all the meanings at once and choose the more tightly related words.

I'll give you my own definition then, using words to describe FGT

Advice
Care
Charge
Capacity
Character
Charisma
Conduction
Coordination
Counsel
Direction
Drive
Edge
Enthusiasm
Exemple
Foresight
Guidance
Initiative
Intendance
Instruction
Intellectual
Navigation
Plan
Skill
Visionary

How dissimilar! Yours I'd take to be tyranny. Mine breathes freedom. Do you see where we have choice of words and how it affects our perception?

And do not belittle your thoughts. I am speaking to you. If you say I am not speaking to your thoughts (and through you, to me), then to whom am I talking?
________
Web Shows


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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paradox wrote:
How dissimilar! Yours I'd take to be tyranny. Mine breathes freedom. Do you see where we have choice of words and how it affects our perception?

And do not belittle your thoughts. I am speaking to you. If you say I am not speaking to your thoughts (and through you, to me), then to whom am I talking?

1. Tyranny! Yes, precisely - thank you.

That is what we have today - tyranny.

2. You are talking to your self. I am just reflecting back to you.

That is why this is not an argument - I do not argue. That is why it is not about me.

I am not interested in what you think as much as I am interested in expressing myself - exactly what you are doing.

Get it?
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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that RP, like many true-believer Austrian economists, really believes what he's saying. He seems to have a "message of hope" a "Morning in America" message. Now where have we heard that before?

Patrick,
Thanks for the feedback on Third Way. I'd say, given the details, given the exploding growth of machine labor and the what he calls the low-grade quality of almost all human labor, that a Third Way might be feasible and even possible to work out the details of such a system. The point, taken at raw simplicity, seemed to be that instead of having a govt manage everything, control everything, including handouts or "Social Credit", instead govt would manage and regulate banking and would make fairly sure every family would receive "dividend" or "royalty" checks every month, rather than welfare checks or no-longer-feasible paychecks.

However, as I mentioned, that's about as much of a fairy tale as any other "plan" (like passive plans to end the war) that it would actually go down, just because it might make sense. That plan would require that the people who currently control money and credit would become willing to democratize credit in such a manner as to place income streams in the hands of people not knowledgeable enough on how to find them or create them on their own, not to mention that such "investment" opportunities outside of corporate monoliths are shrinking away as corporations conglomeratize or go out of business.
However, certainly just as they are in favor of CUTBACKS on WELFARE for the needy, and CUTBACKS on WAGES for workers, they are certainly not going to suddenly start championing sudden new PROSPERITY FOR ALL whether out of dividends or govt checks, because either way that would be wealth re-distribution and would inherently increase the power and wealth of The Rabble, and accordingly reduce the power of the Masters.
I don't imagine Congress will be voting for anything meaningful even on that plan, until cities are on fire ... and even then.

But such a scheme could theoretically work, couldn't it? About as well as a more traditional distribution system? (Someone pointed out that with major corps taking their profits offshore and fanagling the books, they could easily find some way to slash dividend checks for 'public' shares while propping them up for preferred shares.)



Here's why I DON'T support Ron Paul, but why I DO (at least partly) concur with his Neo-Conned speech. (However, if you read the comments on YouTube, many realize that the Neo-Cons are not sole culprits.)

http://www.Takeoverworld.info/ronpaul2008.html (come back later for an MP3 of NeoConned)

I mentioned this before. This is Ron Paul's bastion of economic thought and "Liberty".

Steve Kangas
Myth: The Austrian School of Economics is "apart and above" mainstream economics.
Fact: The Austrian School is a classic example of crank science.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-ausmain.htm
Summary
The Austrian School of Economics is a tiny group of libertarians at war with mainstream economics. They reject even the scientific method that mainstream economists use, preferring to use instead a pre-scientific approach that shuns real-world data and is based purely on logical assumptions. But this is the very method that thousands of religions use when they argue their opposing beliefs, and the fact that the world has thousands of religions proves the fallibility of this approach. Academia has generally ignored the Austrian School (at the time of this writing), and the only reason it continues to exist is because it is financed by wealthy business donors on the far right. The movement does not exist on its own scholarly merits.

Introduction
The Scientific Method
Statistics
Methodological Subjectivism
Methodological Individualism
Starting Assumptions
The Market Process
Monopolies
The Gold Standard and Business Cycle
The History of the Austrian School
The Politics of the Austrian School

Also, former Reaganite, Paul Craig Roberts actually supports what I am saying about the "Free Market" bullshit here.
http://www.Takeoverworld.info/roberts_cityonhill.html

There's some VERY Next Level comments here on Information Clearinghouse, about JFK and the whole NWO thing.
The COMMENTS take Roberts to task for his role in creating the very problems he now denounces. (Roberts' prior response is that people just don't understand. Way back in the 80's, when he was pushing "Tinkle-on-your-head Economics", THEN it was a good thing to help jolt the economy forward. NOW it's gone sour, because the smorgasbord of looting handed out to Big Biz was just ripped off and not re-stocked.)
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