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money myth$ : $alvation i$land
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: money myth$ : $alvation i$land Reply with quote

The Debt Money System by Louis Rich wrote:
Stranded on the Island of Salvation
Wrecked on an Island
And when it was over there were five left, five huddled on a raft which the waves carried along at their will. They had landed on an island and been there ever since.
They were five Canadians: Frank, the carpenter, big and energetic. Paul, the farmer. And Jim, a veterinarian. Harry, an agriculturist, a little on the stout side.

And finally Tom, a prospector.


Quote:
We Have No Money
Under the simple economic system on the island, one thing bothered them; they had no form of money.

Barter had its drawbacks. Products to be exchanged were not always at hand when a trade was discussed. Wood delivered to the farmer in winter could not be paid for in potatoes until six months later.

Sometimes one might have an article of considerable size which he wished to trade for a number of smaller articles produced at different times. This laid a heavy burden on the memory and the mind.
Barter for change?
With a monetary system, however, each one could sell his products to the others for money. With this money he could buy from the others the things he wanted, when he wished and when they were available.

It was agreed that a system of money would be very convenient. But how to set up such a system? They knew how to produce (the source of) true wealth - products, goods, from raw materials.

But how to produce money? Was something quite beyond them. They were ignorant of the ways of money, and didn't know how to produce it. Certainly, many educated men would have been in the same boat.


Quote:
Island Arrival...
One evening sitting on the beach, they suddenly saw approaching a small boat with a solitary man at the oars.

They learned that he was the only survivor of a wreck. His name, Olivier.

Delighted to have a new companion they provided him with the best they had and took him on a tour of the island.

"Even though we're cut off from the rest of the world," they told him, "we haven't much to complain about. The earth and the forest are good to us here. The water is clean, the sun is shining and the stars glitter at night.
Just In Time Salvation?
"We really only lack one thing - we don't have any money. That would make it easier for us to exchange our products."

"Well, you can thank Providence," replied Olivier, "because I am a banker and in no time at all I'll have a system of money guaranteed to satisfy you. Then you'll have everything that civilization has to offer, right here on your island."

A banker!... A BANKER!... An angel couldn't have inspired more reverence and respect in our men. For, after all, are we not accustomed in civilization to fear and love bankers? Those mysterious corporate-heads that control the life-blood of finance?


Quote:
Civilization's God (= Gold)

"Mr. Oliver, as our banker, we understand your only responsibility on the island will be as the banker to keep track of the money; no manual labor."

"Mr. Oliver, we're going to build you a house that you will be proud to live and will keep your dignity as a banker.

"That will suit me, my friends. Unload the boat. There's paper, a printing press, ink, type; and there's a barrel which you must treat with the greatest care."

"...yellow doesn't make it foolish."

They unloaded everything. The barrel aroused intense curiosity.

"This barrel," Oliver announced, "contains treasure beyond dreams. It is full of GOLD!"

Full of gold! The five all but swooned. The god of civilization on Salvation Island! The yellow god, always hidden, yet terrible in its power; whose presence or absence or slightest caprice could decide the very fate of the civilized nations!

"Gold! Mr. Oliver, you are indeed a great banker!"

"Yes, my friends, gold enough for a continent. But gold is not for circulation. Gold must be hidden. Gold is the soul of healthy money, and the soul is always invisible. But I'll explain all that when you receive your money."


Quote:
The Secret Buried Treasure...

Before they left for the night, Oliver asked one last question.

"How much money will you need to begin with in order to facilitate trading?"

They looked perplexed at one another then at the banker. They did not know. After a bit with the advice of the financier, they decided $200 each.

The men parted, and in spite of the late hour, spent most of the night awake, their imaginations too excited by the visions of gold. It was morning before they slept a wink.

"All money matters are a matter of MY money!"

Oliver, he wasted not a moment. Fatigue was forgotten in his imagination of his future as a banker. By dawn's first light he dug a pit into which he buried the barrel. He transplanting a small shrub to the spot about which he carefully arranged so it was well hidden.

Then he went to work with his little money machine to make a thousand $1 bills. Watching the clean new dough come from his press, the refugee turned banker, thought to himself:

"My, what a glorious thing. How easy it is to make money. Value comes from the products it will buy. Without any products to buy these bills are worth anything.

My five naive island customers don't know that. They actually believe that this money gets its value from gold! They do not know the ways that I lie! They believe what I say and that makes me the king of their island."

Later in the evening the five came running up to Oliver.


Quote:
Whose New Money?

Five bundles of new banknotes ($1,000) were sitting on the table. "Before distributing the money," said the banker, "I would like your attention.

"Now, the basis of all money is gold. The gold for this money is kept in the vault of my bank. Therefore, this money is my money.

"I'm going to use it here as you see fit for a year. I am the bank, and its my money, so all you have to do is pay interest. Money is pretty scarce here on the island but I think 8% interest per year is quite reasonable for the first year."

"That's reasonable, Mr. Oliver. We'll work hard and pay it back by then."

"One last thing: Before you get the money, each of you is going to sign and agree to 8% interest on the money and to repay the interest plus the original money. That's a total of $216 in one year. If the payments are not made at that time, I get to keep your stuff.

"Don't worry! This is a mere formality! I have no interest in your stuff. I'm much happier with my money. This way, I feel sure I'll get my money back, because you'll keep your stuff so long as I get my money. Fair enough?"

"Fre$h dough? $till hot!"

"That makes sense, Mr. Oliver. We're going to work harder than ever in order to pay you back in a year or less!"

"That's the spirit. And any time you have a problem, come and see me. Your banker is your best friend. Now, here's two hundred ($200) dollars for each of you."

And our five fellows left, their hands full of dollar bills, their heads swimming with the ecstasy of having money.


Quote:
A math problem with money

Oliver's money went into circulation on the island. Trade simplified by money doubled well within the the first months before the year was up. Everybody was ecstatic!

Now, let's see...Tom, the prospector, sat with a grave look as he figured with pencil and paper; Tom, like the others, agreed to repay Oliver, in one year's time, the $200 plus $16 interest. But Tom has only a few dollars in his pocket and the date of payment is near.

For a long time he struggled with pencil and paper from his point of view. Finally he spoke to everyone from the angle of the little community as a whole.

"Taking into consideration everyone on the island, are we capable of meeting our obligations? Oliver put a total of $1000 into the bank We each got $200. There are 5 x $16 of us and he wants in return $1080.

Math with money is funny...

Even if we bring him every dollar bill on the island we'll still be $80 short. Nobody made the extra $80. We turn out produce, not dollar bills.

"If we can't pay him back Oliver can take over the entire island since all the inhabitants together owe the money!

"Even if a few were able to pay those others would not be able to pay because there is not enough money. Not everyone can pay at once. It is impossible.

Eventually, the banker will have everything. We'd better hold a meeting right away and decide what to do about it."

With figures in hand Tom proved and they all agreed - they had been duped by the kindly banker. They decided upon a meeting at Oliver's.


Quote:
The Benevolent Banker

Oliver guessed what was on their minds but put up his best front. While he listened, the impetuous Frank stated the case for the group.

"How can we pay you $1080 when there is only $1000 on the entire island?"

"That is interest. My interest. You said you were making money. Business has grown, right?

"Sure, but the money hasn't. It's money you want to be paid, not our products. You are the only one who can make money.

You've put only $1000 into the bank and yet you ask $1080 to be paid back. That's an impossibility!"


Is your banker benevolent?

"Now listen, fellows. Bankers, for the greater good of the community, always adapt themselves to the conditions of the times. I'm going to require only the interest. Only $80. You will go on borrowing the capital until next year."

"Bless you, Mr. Oliver! Are you going to cancel the $200 each of us owes you?"

"Oh no! I'm sorry, but a banker never cancels a debt. You still owe me all the money you borrowed.

But you will pay me, each year, only the interest. If you meet the interest payments faithfully each year I won't push you for the capital. Maybe some won't be able to repay even the interest because of the money changing hands among you. We will organize the island like a continent has countries.

We will set up a system of collection for each nation-state (each of you) to collect for the Island Country what are called 'taxes.'

This will even out the money. Those who have more money will be taxed more and those who don't have money will pay less or even nothing. Just see to it that you bring me in the total amount of interest and I'll be patient for the rest. Don't worry - your little nation will thrive!"


"you're all in this together" - (and apparently, the banker does nothing but sit around all day and watch the island of salvation toil - day after day after day... can you believe that? :roll: )

Quote:
Oliver$ exultation

Oliver is deep in thought:

"Business is good. These boys are good workers, but stupid. Their ignorance and my willingness to exploit it is my strength. They ask for money and I give them the chains of bondage as printed paper. They give me orchids and I pick their pockets. (They promise to pay and don't walk away from it.)

"True enough, they could throw me into the sea. But pshaw! I have their signatures. They're honest, hardworking people. They were put into this world to serve the ones smarter than they are. As long as they never leave the island they will never know!

Oh, illustrious wan kenobi-ishka! how righteous you were when you said: "Give me control of a nation's money and I won't mind who makes its laws."

Banker$ Irrational Exultation

"I am the master of Salvation because I control its money. My souls is drunk with ambition. I can do for the entire world what I have done for Salvation Island. If only I could get off this island! I could rule the world without wearing a crown or a gown.

"My supreme delight would be to install my philosophy in the minds of society: bankers, industrialists, politicians, reformers, teachers, journalists, -- all would be my servants. The masses are content to live in slavery when the elite from among them are constituted as their overseers."


Quote:
(un) Bearable Co$t of $alvation Living

Meanwhile things went from bad to worse on Salvation Island. Production was up, bartering dropped. Oliver collected his interest every month. He was worried about the 'risk' we might not be able to pay at the end of the year. The others had to think of setting money aside for fear of not paying Oliver. Someone was always short their share. It seemed like there was just barely enough to pay Oliver. Money tended to flow like ice instead of circulating freely.

Those who paid more in taxes complained about those who paid less. They each raised the prices of their goods (as Oliver suggested) to compensate for these 'expenses.'

Then those who paid no taxes complained about the prices going up, making it even harder to pay Oliver because of the high cost of necessities on Salvation and bought less.

What co$t $alvation?

Morale was low. The joy went out of living. No one took an interest in the quality of their work. Why should he? Products sold poorly no matter how well they were made. It didn't matter-when they made a sale they had to pay taxes to Oliver. This was to take care of his worries that we were a greater risk than before and might not pay the money back.

The never went without things before, now one or two of them was always without anything and the rest of them bare had much more. It was a real crisis.

One day sitting in his orchard, Harry pondered the situation. He finally decided this "progress", was born of a system that was brought by the banker and had spoiled everything on the island.

Unquestionably all five had their faults; but Oliver's system seemed to have been designed to fail everyone but Oliver.

Harry decided to demonstrate this to his friends and to unite them for action. He started with Jim. "I'm no genius", he said, "but for a long time now, there's been a bad smell about this banker's system."

One by one they decided upon another conference with Oliver.


Quote:
Interview with the unshackle

"Money's scarce on the island because you take it away from us! We pay you and pay you and pay you and still we owe you as much as before. We work our heads off! We've the finest land and yet we're worse off than before you arrived in Savation. Debts! Debts! up to our necks in debts!"

"Oh! let's be reasonable! Your affairs are booming and it's thanks to me. A good banking system is a country's best asset. But if it is to work beneficially you must have faith in the banker. Come to me as you would to a father... is it more money you want? Very well.

My gold is good for many more thousands of dollars. I will take a mortgage on the splendid house you built for me and lend you another thousand dollars right now."

Shackles & Chains

"So! Now our debt goes up to $2000! We are going to have twice as much interest to pay for the rest of our lives!"

"Well, yes -- but whenever the value of your property increases you can borrow more money. As long as you pay on time you will never pay more than the interest. Lump all your debts into one -- what we call 'consolidated debt.' You can add to the debt year after year."

"And raise the taxes year after year?"

"Obviously. But your revenues increase every year because your prices increase every year. Got to raise prices when things cost you more for your business. Is there any one to say that is not fair?"

"So then, the more the country develops each year because of our raw materials, labor and the work we put into making the product - the more the public debt increases!" Question

"Why, of course! Just as in your 'old' country -- or in any other part of the civilized world.

The success of civilization is always judged by the size of a country's debt to its bankers"? Question
(I don't remember that)


Quote:
The wolf devour$ the lamb$

"And that's a healthy monetary system, Mr. Oliver?"

"Gentlemen, all sound money is based on gold and it comes from the banks in the form of debts. The national debt is a good thing.

It keeps men from becoming too satisfied. It subjugates governments to the supreme and ultimate wisdom, that which is incarnate in bankers. As a banker, I am the torch of Salvation here on the island. I will dictate your politics and regulate your standard of living."

Beware! Wolf in Wool Suit$
"Mr. Oliver, we're simple, uneducated folks, but we know enough that we don't want that here. We'll not borrow another cent.

Sound money or no money we don't want any more of your money. You have plenty enough of our hard-earned money already."


"Gentlemen, I deeply regret this. But remember, I have your signatures. Repay me everything at once -- capital and interest."

"But that's impossible, sir. Even if we give you all the money on the face of $alvation we still won't have enough."

"I can't help that. Did you or did you not sign? Yes? Very well. By virtue of the sanctity of contracts I hereby seize your mortgaged property which was what you agreed to at the time you were so happy to have my help.

If you don't want to $erve willingly the $upreme authority of money then you will obey by force. You'll continue to exploit the island, but in my intere$t$ and under my conditions. Now get out! You'll get your order$ from me tomorrow."


Quote:
Control the Full Court Pre$$

Oliver knew that whoever controlled the nation's money, controlled the nation. But he knew also that to maintain that control it was necessary to keep the people in a state of ignorance and to distract them by a variety of means to keep their attention.

Oliver had observed that of the five islanders, two were conservatives and three were liberals. That much had evolved from their evening conversations, especially after they had fallen into slavery. And between the conservatives and those who were liberals, there was constant friction.

On occasions, Harry, the most neutral of the five, considering that all had the same needs and aspirations, had suggested the union of the people to put pressure on the authorities.

Such a union, Oliver could not tolerate; it would mean the end of his rule. No dictator, financial or otherwise, could stand before a people united and educated.

Pre$$ Power & Control Button

Con$equently, Oliver $et himself to foment, as much as po$$ible, political $trife between them.

The refugee put his press to work turning out two weekly newspapers, "The $un" for the liberal$ and "The $tar" for the con$ervative$.

The general tenor of "The $un" was: "If you are no longer ma$ter, it is becau$e of tho$e traitorou$ con$ervative$ who have $old out to big bu$ine$$."

That of "The $tar": "The ruinou$ $tate of bu$ine$$ and the national debt can be traced directly to the political re$pon$ibility of tho$e unmentionable liberal$."

And the two factions wrangled ferociously, forgetting the one who had forged their chains, that money ma$ter, the banker Oliver.


Quote:
A priceless bit of flotsam

One day, Tom, the prospector on a small beach hidden by tall grass at one end of the island, a lifeboat, empty except for a trunk in good condition lying in the bottom of it.

He opened the trunk. Among the articles within, a sort of album caught his eye: "The First Year of Social Credit".

Curious, Tom sat down, began to read and his face lit up!

"This is something we should have known about a long time ago. Money gets its value from the products which that money buys.

"Money should be a true scorecard to allocate resources, credits passing from one account to another according to purchases and sales, production and equipment. The sum total of all work.
Pricele$$ Truth$ ($alvation - unknown)

"Each time production increases, there is a corresponding increase in the amount of money. The money is not created until the production increase justifies it.

"Never at any time should interest be paid on new money. Never at any time should money be paid to generate interest.

"Progress is by the issuance of an equal dividend to each producing individual...

"Progress is going in the wrong direction if there is a public debt owed by a country. There is nowhere else but that country that any money can come.

Prices adjustments, when absolutely necessary, are only justified by demand and the true supply of resources - not artificially reducing supply to drive the price up.

But Tom could no longer contain himself. He got up and set off at a run, the book in his hands, to share this glorious discovery with his four comrades.


Quote:
Funny money math = accounting

Tom became the teacher. He taught the others what he had learned from that God-sent Social Credit publication.

"This", he said, "is what we can do without waiting for a banker and his keg of gold or underwriting a debt.

"I open an account in the name of each of you. In the right hand column are the credits which increase your account; to the left are the debits which substract from your account.

"Each wants $200 to begin with. Very well. We write $200 to the credit of each. Each immediately has $200.

"Frank buys some goods from Paul for -$10. I deduct -$10 from Frank leaving him +$190. I add +$10 to Paul and he now has +$210.

"Jim buys from Paul to the amount of -$8. I deduct from Jim -$8 leaving him +$192. Paul now has +$218.

"Paul buys wood from Frank for -$15. I deduct -$15 from Paul leaving +$203. I add +$15 to Frank's account and it goes back to +$205.


Only funny when its NOT your money!

And so we continue; from one account to another in the same fashion as paper banknotes go from one man's pocket to another's.

"If someone needs money to expand production, we issue him the necessary amount of new credit. Once he has sold his products he repays the sum to the credit fund. The same with public works; paid for by new credits.

"Likewise, each one's account is periodically increased but without taking credits from anyone, in order that all may benefit from the progress society makes - by working together.

That's the national dividend we should be paying ourselves, not paying interest to the bank! It was never theirs in the first place. We just didn't know any better. In this way money is just another tool of service - to benefit ALL KIND of MAN. Not to benefit the Bankers."


Quote:
The banker'$ de$pair

Everyone understood. The members of this little community became Social Crediters. The following day, Oliver, the banker, received a letter signed by the five:

"Dear sir' without the slightest necessity you have plunged us into debt and exploited us. We don't need you anymore to run our money system. From now on we'll have all the money we need without gold, debts or thieves. We are establishing, at once, the system of Social Credit on the island. The national dividend is going to replace the national debt.

"If you insist on being repaid, we can repay you all the money you gave us. But not a cent more. You cannot lay claim to that which you have not made."

Spare De Bankers NO Change?

Oliver was in despair. His empire was crumbling. His dreams shattered. What could he do? Arguments would be futile. The five were now Social Crediters: money and credit were now not more mysterious to them than they were to Oliver.

"Oh!", said Oliver, "these men have been won to Social Credit. Their doctrine will spread far more quickly than mine. Should I beg forgiveness? become one of them? I, a financier and a banker? Never! Rather, I shall try and put as much distance between them and me as I can!"


Quote:
Fraud Un-Buried Treasure

To protect themselves against any future claim by Oliver, our five men decided to make him sign a document attesting that he again possessed all he had when he first arrived on the island.

An inventory was taken; the boat, the oars, the little press and the famous barrel of gold.

Oliver had to reveal where he had hidden the gold. Our boys hoisted it from the hole with considerably less respect than the day they had unloaded it from the boat. Social Credit had taught them to despise gold.

The prospector, who was helping to lift the barrel, found it surprisingly light for gold. If the barrel was full, he told the others, there was something in it besides gold.

Truth and $alvation are often buried.

The impetuous Frank didn't waste a moment; a blow of the axe and the contents of the barrel were exposed.

Gold? Not so much as a grain of it! Just rocks -- plain, worthless rocks!

Our men couldn't get over the shock. "Don't tell us he could take advantage of us like this? We paid him every month, even when we had nothing!"

"Were we so gullible over the mere mention of gold that we didn't ask the right questions?"

"Did we mortgage all our possessions for a few pieces of paper based on a few rocks? It's robbery compounded by trickery on top of lies!"

"To think that we sulked and almost hated one another all because we believed such a fraud! That devil! We believed everything he said because we wanted to pay him back."


Quote:
Farewell Mystical Island of Salvation

After the opening of the barrel and the revelation of his duplicity, nothing further was heard of Oliver.

Shortly after, a ship, cruising off the normal navigation rout, noticed signs of life on this uncharted island and cast anchor a short distance offshore.

The men learned that the ship was en route to America. So they decided to take with them what they could carry and return to Canada.

Public $ Money & $ocial $ Credit $ink da boat!

Above all, they made sure to take back with them the album "The First Year of Social Credit" which had proven to be their salvation from the hands of the financier, Oliver, and which had illumined their minds with an inextinguishable light.

All five solemnly swore to refuse to be slaves to their own money any longer. They would be devoted to the cause of explaining the funny math about money and the benefits of:

Public Money & $ocial Credit.


Drew Terry wrote:
1. Possibly the reason for Tavistock et. al. back at the turn of the century was because they knew what worked in the past would not continue to work in the future. As people gradually became more educated they would figure out what is funny about the math and realize how unfair the system is actually made to be that way.

2. As the populations grew around the world, and they could no longer isolate pockets of people in countries around the world, kept apart by a steady stream of newspeak untruths about the cultures, to cause fear and anxiety - only possible before anyone had a chance to realize that people are people. Human beings.

3. Russians are no more communists than we are capitalists. We are all people. People who don't know any better and are not inclined to not trust anyone. People trusting people until its too late, and we are being controlled by our own beliefs that we refuse to give up. For fear of what?


Quote:
"The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding sleight of hand that was ever invented. Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin. As a result, the Bankers own the earth.

Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money and control credit, and with the flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again.

Take this great power away from the bankers and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for this would be a better and happier world to live in.

But if you want to continue (in debt) as slaves (pay interest) of bankers (pigs) and pay (time=$ money) the cost (interest) of your own slavery (money), let them create (your) money (out of paper) and to control credit (and lives)."

- Sir Josiah Stamp, Director and President of the Bank of England during the 1920's.


Drew wrote:
So, thats it for the myth about money and debt and why we seem to never get anywhere but further and further into debt.

1. It's never your fault if you do the best you can, with what you've got, on what you are told by people you should trust. Are told to trust. That tell us to sign our life away because they don't trust us!!

2. When the right questions are asked and the answers are lies;
when the right questions are asked and instead of answering them or saying 'I don't know' they attack the person asking the questions;
when it seems like almost no one else can pay any attention and you can't pay anything but?
No one wants to wake up yet. We sleep as late as we can possibly get away with it 5 minutes snooze button?? What is that?

I went back to sleep for a while, a while ago. But it is now past late afternoon, anyone who is getting up should be waking up now. We have slept long enough.

3. It's almost like a gigantic (galactic) original psyop - they put the burden of guilt on the borrower, create a big smokescreen, intimidate by using confusing math that is designed to be deceptive and to top it all off - put on a 3 piece suit and the stink of aristocracy. Walking intimidation machine.

The BUCK $ Sinks Soon - we are in the stage of the process where they deflate the currency to be truly worthless. Just as they did in Germany under Hitler, just as they did during the Bolcheveik Revolution, just as they did in Rome and Asia and every other empire: what is the one thing that all empires have in common - except with the US?

They all have in common that they have all failed to be here today. Where we stand in a strikingly similar position.

Idea The encouraging thing is that while none of this information is new, there is a much greater awareness right now. So that part of our consciousness that is naturally causing people to be interested in this when we have not been before, even though the information has been there the whole time, that is the essence of our ongoing evolution of consciousness.


Last edited by DrewTerry on Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nat



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 840
Location: minime-rica

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

great stuff Drew Smile wouldn't it be great to bring the same salvation into being for all

Last edited by Nat on Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

matt wrote:
it be great to bring the same salvation into being for all


Who says it won't be, but the powers that be? who won't be in power for a galactic hour, rather by then it will be everyones power to co-create for themselves the power to be - and be free from the powers that be!

It's happening as we speak, and it is going to be the fastest transformation you could possibly imagine (if you dreamed at the speed of light - but we might) either which way, all I know is the power to believe in what you feel in your heart is a possibility, and with the timing (historically) such as we are in the right coordinates for the right consciousness, then anything ANYTHING is possible!

All we have to believe is to believe in the power of belief...after all, it is up to us to look up and 'wave' at them, not wait for them to wave at us. They couldn't care less, so if we don't care enough to believe then maybe we should find another more 'down to earth' type of galaxy? Cool


Quote:
not far from me is Cambourne and Redruth where you can trade work, products, skills, all without the government's/bank's spidery fingers in your pocket...there's just about everything in the system from hairdressing to car maintenace to groceries to accounting services and more


Have never heard of it but I will check the link out...sounds like the antithesis of Big Brother so that is always a good thing.

Thanks Matt, your enthusiasm is keeping my inspiration inspired - I hope it is contagious! ("Get UR Bird Flu Here") Later on, gotta run down the scent of my nose....
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rustyh



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another fantastic post DrewTerry!
So simple and easy to digest.
I might recommend that story be taught in all schools.
Educate the kiddies.
Sounds like pretty useful information!!!
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Nat



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rustyh wrote:
Sounds like pretty useful information!!!


...and that makes it DANGEROUS !!! Very Happy

let's hope it escapes into the environment and bites everybody
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Fear & Ignorance = Power & Control Reply with quote

rustyh wrote:
Another fantastic post DrewTerry!
So simple and easy to digest.
I might recommend that story be taught in all schools.
Educate the kiddies.
Sounds like pretty useful information!!!


Thanks rustyh Exclamation I am happy to hear that. Are you a teacher, or is that your own kids (or both?) because I would be curious to know what they thought about it.

There is a pdf book you can download for free, the book is called "The Kingdom of Moltz" by Irwin Schiff, the guy who is interviewed in the movie "Freedom to Fascism" about fighting the IRS for the last 25 years.

http://www.svpvril.com/pdffiles/Schiff_King_Moltz.pdf

The story is completely different and it focuses on inflation in a different way (but its probably a better story and the illustrations are much better).

What I like about the story above is the fault which sinks the system is there is never enough money in the system to pay it all back. Why it doesn't work. Didn't work in Monopoly; it doesn't work now.

Of course, our society is like a split personality about money and keeping track of it. For as material as we are, with short attention span of 5 minutes or less, to keep track and make sense of we would have a better understanding math and $.

But there lies the doublespeak halftruth ungood (intentional gibberish) ( Arrow newspeak = newsweek Question )

I hoped to streamline from the original (too much story) but not leave out the important aspects. Someone will come along and say it could never work because its 'not sophisticated enough' or some criticism of that sort.

I am firmly of the belief that if anyone is arguing for a more complicated system, especially where it concerns something as basic and critical to functions of any society, big or small, then they have got something to HIDE.

Otherwise, why would we not want to keep it simple? So simple that anyone who wants to understand it - can & will. Makes perfect sense to me.

Why does it always seem that cerain aspects of our lives are meant to confuse? It it were simple and easy to see, then it would be too difficult to deceive people. Laughing

I suppose when you've been getting the milk for free for what 4 or 5,000 years now? That is a culture, heritage, history (now) but nevertheless difficult for some more than others in the painful realignment of our beliefs with beliefs that are true.

matt wrote:
"..and that makes it DANGEROUS !!!"

let's hope it escapes into the environment and bites* everybody


The only danger lurks in the shadows of our mind borne of the conditioning to fear what we do not know (YET).

But don't ever ADMIT we don't know what we don't know - because if the poeple whose power we have and hold over them ever knew we didn't know half of what say we do - they would no longer be afraid of US (i.e. ruling aristocracy, elite, etc.).

Fear & Ignorance (plus some brass boulder size cajones) has been much more effective than anything else to control people and by extension the society of people. In fairness to people in history, it was not as though there was not plenty of bonafide DANGER which deserved some healthy respect. And when you work that hard to get enough food in for the winter its hard to have time to be afraid or ignorant: we don't know we are ignorant of something until we are faced with our ignorance (during or after the fact) and if you kept busy doing things that you could do with eyes wide shut, I imagine it would be special circumstances indeed to divert attention away from the necesseties to educate oneself enough to know how ignorant you were to then be afraid of that which you did not know you did not know - until now you know it. (Or something like that).


*(BTW, matt - we could arrange this for your birthday or some other occasion if you like? :roll: )

Thanks again guys! Any suggestions to make it a easier to understand, clarify, eliminate? Anything you want to say just fire away...
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Nat



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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Location: minime-rica

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: Fear & Ignorance = Power & Control Reply with quote

Drew wrote:
...why would we not want to keep it simple? So simple that anyone who wants to understand it - can & will. Makes perfect sense to me.

...yes, but things making sense would be 'dangerous' and would never do Wink


Last edited by Nat on Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jeroen



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrewTerry, compliments for the story and the drawings. Do you have a website too?
Quote:
Likewise, each one's account is periodically increased but without taking credits from anyone, in order that all may benefit from the progress society makes - by working together.

More production without the creation of new money will increase the value of existing money, ie prices will go down. If money is only electronic, there's no need to create new money; amounts smaller than a cent can be dealt with. If new money is created however, the sum in each account should be periodically multiplied with some factor, since that resembles the growth in value of money without the creation of new money. So, if the factor is 2 then someone with 5 units will have 10 and someone with 7 will have 14 units after the periodic increase.
Quote:
If someone needs money to expand production, we issue him the necessary amount of new credit. Once he has sold his products he repays the sum to the credit fund.

I think the idea is to have as much freedom as possible without unfairness. So, if people want to borrow money, it should not matter if they want to buy a commodity (eg a new car) or capital (eg a piece of land to grow crops on). If someone wants a new car, he can save the money and then buy one, but if he borrows money, he can immediately enjoy the car (and enjoy *a* car for a longer time than when he had to save first). And the sooner someone starts to grow crops, the more profit he can make. Therefore, it is profitable to borrow money and if it didn't cost anything every rational person would want to borrow and no one would want to lend. The price (interest, compounded or not) of the borrowing could be left to the free market.
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elbowdeep



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Salvation Island", originally published in the "Michael Journal" by founder Louis Even. (Later renamed to "The Money Myth Exploded”)
http://www.michaeljournal.org/myth.htm

Info on the author Louis Even.
http://www.michaeljournal.org/evenbioa.htm

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Jeroen



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Taking into consideration everyone on the island, are we capable of meeting our obligations? Oliver put a total of $1000 into the bank We each got $200. There are 5 x $16 of us and he wants in return $1080. Even if we bring him every dollar bill on the island we'll still be $80 short. Nobody made the extra $80. We turn out produce, not dollar bills.

The mistake here is that Oliver needs "produce" from the others as well. Suppose every inhabitant, including Oliver, buys and sells each year for $80--$16 per customer. Then Oliver will get his interest (his "produce"), and the others will still have $200 at the end of the year--nothing changes. Any amount bigger than $16 will allow the debtors to repay their loan--while keeping their $200--and any amount smaller than $16 will increase the loan.

The Social Credit ideology has been quite popular, but is definitely flawed. The argument above can also be found in this very interesting article:
Quote:
It is true that there is not enough money created to include the interest, but it is a fallacy that the only way to pay it back is to borrow still more. The assumption fails to take into account the exchange value of labor.
http://www.wealth4freedom.com/creature_Chapter_10.htm

In the very same article however, the author repeatedly argues that...
Quote:
...it is the act of paying off the debt that causes [money] to vanish. [...] It is difficult for Americans to come to grips with the fact that their total money supply is backed by nothing but debt, and it is even more mind boggling to visualize that, if everyone paid back all that was borrowed, there would be no money left in existence.

This is simply not true. The people on Salvation Island can pay back their debt (if Oliver spends enough) and still own $200 each.

The Federal Reserve is a privately owned corporation. The article explains how the Fed, like Oliver, creates money out of nothing for loans to the government. In the US there is, however, also money not created out of government debt:
Quote:
United States Notes (characterized by a red seal and serial number) were the first national currency, authorized by the Legal Tender Act of 1862 and began circulating during the Civil War. The Treasury Department issued these notes directly into circulation, and they are obligations of the United States Government.[...] Both United States Notes and Federal Reserve Notes are parts of our national currency and both are legal tender. They circulate as money in the same way. However, the issuing authority for them comes from different statutes. United States Notes were redeemable in gold until 1933, when the United States abandoned the gold standard. [...] Because United States Notes serve no function that is not already adequately served by Federal Reserve Notes, their issuance was discontinued, and none have been placed in to circulation since January 21, 1971.
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.html#q3

After 1933, United States Notes, like Federal Reserve Notes, were created out of nothing. Such a creation of money is comparable to a flat tax because it causes inflation by increasing the money supply. This "flat tax" is a lot higher for Federal Reserve Notes, because of the interest the government has to pay.
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mistakes here are opinions with obfuscation:

jeroen wrote:
The mistake here is that Oliver needs "produce" from the others as well.

1. Where is the mistake that says the bank ('Oliver') needs 'produce' from the others?

2. It says that when people hold ('freeze') money the money is stationary; money in motion ('liquid') moves freely as a freely moving river but when the water is subject to low enough temperature it no longer moves ('frozen') and in solid form of ice is not able to provide for life as one of life's essential ingredients - in the same way that liquidity in an economy is the 'lifeblood' and currency of the body depending on the economy for the sustenance of life.

jeroen wrote:
Suppose every inhabitant, including Oliver, buys and sells each year for $80--$16 per customer.

1. Oliver is NOT included. Oliver = bank.

2. Oliver is a parasite - not a participant.

3. He lives in a house the island built for him, and works only to watch everyone else work.

3. The work by the participants would benefit the participants and the parasite would be eliminated if the participants were not deceived by the parasite.

4. The participants would issue their own money, on which they would NOT owe interest to the parasite

5. The participants economic need would be the incremental justification by which the participants issued into circulation money created for economic activity.

jeroen wrote:
Then Oliver will get his interest (his "produce"), and the others will still have $200 at the end of the year--nothing changes. Any amount bigger than $16 will allow the debtors to repay their loan--while keeping their $200--and any amount smaller than $16 will increase the loan.

• Please elaborate and explain the essential mechanics of the mathematical assumption above.

Please Note: I am not able to understand anything unless all is explained and nothing is assumed. Otherwise, I may assume to understand that which is understood in a way unrelated to the assumption you assumed would be understood. Then we will neither understand what was assumed was not understood and what was to be understood is no longer assumed in the way to understanding.

Quote:
It is difficult for Americans to come to grips with the fact that their total money supply is backed by nothing but debt, and it is even more mind boggling to visualize that, if everyone paid back all that was borrowed, there would be no money left in existence.

jeroen wrote:
This is simply not true. The people on Salvation Island can pay back their debt (if Oliver spends enough*) and still own $200 each.

(*) Parasite - not participant.

Please show how this mathematically adds up - I don't get it.

jeroen wrote:
The Social Credit ideology has been quite popular, but is definitely flawed.


1. This is rhetoric and does not add to understanding.

2. You are welcome to state your opinions based and backed with simple mathematical examples that are:

a) coherent with the boundaries of the question or statement corresponding to the example and the point you intend to make (i.e. changing the parameters changes the equation and no longer applies), and;

b) presented clearly to be easily understood by anyone with a basic education, and;

c) consistent in the argument and examples with the goal of clarification for everyones understanding.

Otherwise, your comments are exactly the obfuscation and intentionally misleading argumentative nature of dogmatic 'swiss cheese' by which the power and control is maintained at the expense of honesty and ethical integrity, all in pursuit of the 'more perfect' creation of diametrically opposed idealized rhetoric.

Argumentative posts based on Cent$-less ideology are not for this forum and do not deserve attention or refutation.
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Jeroen



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Where is the mistake that says the bank ('Oliver') needs 'produce' from the others?

Oliver cannot eat money and cannot live in money. So either he finds/grows his own food and builds his own house or he buys it from the others. The idea of his trickery is to let the others do the work for him, so he won't provide for himself. The others will try to pay back "his" money, but they will certainly not work for him for free on top of that. Therefore Oliver has to buy "produce" from the others. Of course, the easiest way for Oliver to pay, is to reduce the seller's debt.
Quote:
Please elaborate and explain the essential mechanics of the mathematical assumption above.

The table below shows how much each of the inhabitants buys and sells from the others in a year. It shows that Oliver does not sell (first row), but he does buy (1st col), ie reduce debt for a total of $80 (I stated that Oliver buys *and* sells, my mistake).

The 3d column for example, means that Paul buys for $64 a year (not $80 like I said). Paul sells for $64 to the other debtors (3d row)--keeping his $200, and reduces his debt with $16 (1st col, 3d row). So, at the end of the year Paul, like the others, will still have $200 cash, and $200 debt.

In the table below all transactions are now $17 instead of $16. Now Paul buys (3d row) for $68 a year, sells for 4 * $17 = $68 a year to the other debtors, and reduces his debt with $17 (1st col, 3d row). So, at the end of the year Paul, like the others, will still have $200 cash, but now his debt will be $216 - $17 = $199.

The next year, his debt will be $199 + 0.08 * $199 = $215,92. At the end of that year his debt will be $215,92 - $17 = $198,92 and so on, until he has paid his debt.

Quote:
I am not able to understand anything unless all is explained and nothing is assumed. Otherwise, I may assume to understand that which is understood in a way unrelated to the assumption you assumed would be understood. Then we will neither understand what was assumed was not understood and what was to be understood is no longer assumed in the way to understanding. [...] Otherwise, your comments are exactly the obfuscation and intentionally misleading argumentative nature of dogmatic 'swiss cheese' by which the power and control is maintained at the expense of honesty and ethical integrity, all in pursuit of the 'more perfect' creation of diametrically opposed idealized rhetoric.

Swiss cheese? Hmm, never mind.

Quote:
The Social Credit ideology has been quite popular, but is definitely flawed

In my first post, I have already pointed out some flaws. And I count the fact that the debtors *can* pay back their debt as a flaw too.

Quote:
After 1933, United States Notes, like Federal Reserve Notes, were created out of nothing.

As for Federal Reserve Notes, this is not completely true. Foreign governments could still exchange dollars for gold for a fixed price. In the 1970's this was abolished by Nixon, because too many dollars had been created, and therefore foreign governments preferred gold over dollars. Nixon needed more dollars for the Vietnam war, and, of course, wanted to keep the gold, which does actually have real value (mostly because people want it for its bling, I think).

The advantage of a gold standard (paper money exchangeable for a certain amount of gold) is that a government cannot create an unlimited amount of money, because then people would exchange their money for the government's gold. So it offers protection against irresponsible governments (of course they can abolish it and put you in jail when you complain about that, but that's another story).

A government creating fiat money out of nothing is comparable to the issuance of credits to all inhabitants on Salvation Island. What Oliver did is comparable to the situation in the States where the government borrows money that is created out of nothing by the Fed. Obviously this makes the Fed (and Oliver) the supreme parasite.
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