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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

urbanspaceman wrote:
On Fomenko, from:

http://www.skepticreport.com/mystics/fomenko.htm
Quote:

The American presidents Abraham Lincoln and John F. Kennedy were both concerned with civil rights and had wives who lost children both during and after their terms in the White House. Both presidents were succeeded by Southerners named Johnson from towns that were 15 minutes from Johnson City in Tennessee, and both successors left the presidency in disgrace.

Lincoln was shot in the Ford theatre and Kennedy was shot in a Ford Lincoln. Both were shot in the head by a southerner on a Friday while sitting next to their wives. Both assassins were assassinated before the trials, and one of them ran from a theatre and was caught in a warehouse, while the other ran from a warehouse and was caught in a theatre.

These facts force us to the inevitable conclusion that Lincoln was a fictive copy of Kennedy!


Also from the above quoted article:

Quote:
This might come as a surprise to most readers, but there are actually people who have taken this article seriously.
It is meant as a joke

From:
http://www.skepticreport.com/mystics/fomenko.htm


Perhaps this explains the cheeky 'conclusion'.
Quote:
Conclusion
Even though it is quite embarrassing to live in a country whose history has been faked, I’m actually quite proud: It only took me a few hours to prove that a lot of history has been faked, that a transvestite has been ruling Denmark, that time machines exists and that humans and dinosaurs just might have met each other as the creationists claim.


Besides, the article is about a lecture regarding Fomenko's ideas, not a critique of his book, which he states he has not read.

Instead, he read a 'skeptical' review of the book written by, none other than debunker boy wonder Jason Colavito!. It's a small, skeptical world after all.

Quote:

I'm all for sacrificing sacred cows if new evidence arises, but Fomenko's attempt to reduce history to mathematics is bizarre, and strikes me as junk science. His statistical analsis of history is inventive, and might one day be shown to be another very useful tool in the historian's toolbox, but Fomenko uses it in such a forced an isolated way, I'm far from convinced by his arguments.


As you know, algebra give me hives, so I haven't double checked Fomenko's mathematical formulas for his 'New Chronology', and therefore can't comment on the math. I can't 'feel' anything about the calculations unless I understand them. Do you? Other than a chip on your shoulder about Creationists, what is it about Fomenko's use of math that infuriates you? He is, after all, a PhD. in physics and mathematics. His credentials don't suggest a career of 'Junk Science', unless all the leading Russian academics are in on it too.


Quote:

And as another poster commented, those ads on google for his book are weird. In fact, fucking creepy, almost cultish. If Alex Jones' name was attached to them, half the people on this forum would be screaming 'obvious propaganda!'.


It's unfortunate the computer translated voice over accompanying the video trailers gave you such a scare. There was some nice music, though, although that kind of added to the surreal voice over. Then again, real and surreal have been spending so much time together it's hard to tell em apart.

I've got an idea - stop watching the video trailers and read the book. Then come here and tear it to shreds page by page so everyone can see what a gullible tard I am. I never intended to be a proponent of Fomenko's book or defender of his hypotheses, and if this is a load of caca, for the love of poop jokes, please stop me before I torpedo what tiny amount of credibility Fintan's phone call may have brought.

But so far, these are your feelings, and, valid as they may be, don't mean much unless you specify which of Mr. Robotrailer's statements you disagree.

Quote:

He's using very similar tactics than the Creationists to demonstrate that the dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time, compressing geological history to 4000 years. It's starting with a conclusion and making every effort to make the data fit.


Why does questioning historical accuracy or doubting Darwin immediately make me a Creationist? Why and how are these 'Creationist' tactics? Who cares what Creationists think, as we're talking about validity of supposed historical evidence. Is 'Creationist' meant to be an epithet?

I'm not even at the part where Fomenko discusses his New Chronology, as I'm still reeling about how much history is unverifiable. Not patently false, just unverifiable. As Fintan mentioned, he's "kicked some serious holes" in a lot of the pre-conceived ideas about the historical timeline. That was my main interest - what may not have happened, because that opened up the possibility for my own individual examination of the possibilities. I may or may not agree with Fomenko's final assessment of what did happen before the middle ages, namely, cause I'm busy working on one of my own - one with only half the math of other revisionists. Wink

Quote:

In our zeal to stand up to the PTB, let's not counter their bullshit with more bullshit, people. There's 2 kinds of non-conformity: independant thinking that sees beyond blind groupthink, and blind teenage rebelliousness. This strikes me as much more of the second kind than the first.


Well, I'm still in the countering bullshit stage, and I don't think being amazed by how much of consensual history is contradictory and unverifiable constitutes blind teenage rebellious groupthink.

But then, I'll have to check with the group on that... Wink

Quote:
You can't fight propaganda with your own narcissism.


But you can love yourself for trying!Wink
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elbowdeep



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jerry...

I feel for you. I too have journeyed into revisional stuff.

If you have read Fomenko, then I would highly recommend you read "Fingerprints of the Gods" by Hancock to "balance" things. (whatever that means!?)
http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/default.htm

Hancock uses different methods and makes some startling conclusions as well, in a nutshell says we've been on this planet (as a civilized world) way longer than accepted historians tell us (more like 12-15 thousand years). This may supplement Fomenko, or contradict, not sure, haven't read all too much of Fomenko. All I'm recommending, is that you also read Hancock, and don't get too tied up in any one of these authors. I think there may be a certain amount of embellishment that goes into these works, to make things fit like a glove... they are human after all.

Seems there is lots of debunking on all accounts, and it seems that the deeper one gets into any one view of things, the more myopic one becomes. It's a tough journey.

I tend to try to get the "general idea" of the concepts of these various writers, and also read the debunkers. I take all points into consideration, and in the end, I generally evaluate everything into some shade of gray. Rarely am I 100% on anything... I generally am always at the 60% view on things, and change my mind often, as often UNRELATED works become related, and either boost my belief in a certain "fact", or dimenish it. It's all related unfortunately. [Wink] Just have to let your 'gut' guide you.

Good luck my friend, I also hate this stuff, and also love this stuff. Read Hancock as well. Knowing what you now know, it might make you laugh, it might make you cry.

ED

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Ormond



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 1556
Location: Belly of the Beast, Texas

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm supposing that we don't have any tenured history professors on the forum, since the broadcast and topic has been out for several days. If there were, they surely would have been on this one like 'white on rice'.

So I'll put forward my 'layman's understanding' of how official history is sanctified and goes down on the books.

Number One, there are at any given time two versions of history to begin with.
The most public one is the Public Library version. The second is the Academic Archive version, available only to tenured professors, and graduate students upon permission from an authority to have access to specific topics in the Archive.

Certain real histories are "classified". The personal letters and lives of famous persons--politicians and scientists in particular, though it does include artists and anyone else noteworthy.
The sensitive documents of government, also.

These critical notes, letters, memos and meeting minutes go 'in the vault' of archives, figuratively speaking, for fifty years. The legal reasoning is to wait fifty years to assure that anyone mentioned in the real history will be deceased.

Meanwhile, as I mentioned, certain categories of qualified academics are permitted to view inside the vault. Generally material they're allowed to view is specific and limited to their field of study, and only upon demostration that it's for academic purposes.

Now, these academics are under restriction that they may view the material, and they can chat about it with peers, even with grad students--informally. But they may not publish it, or make what they learn part of their class curriculum.

During that fifty years, historians are working away writing up the final version of the official histories of today. Only that version will not be made public until 2056.

I belief that my synopsis of how it works is very general, but also accurate to the best of my understanding, as it was explained to me by professors when I was a student, and also worked in University libraries.

I bring this up because when I learned how official, academic history is continually updated, it's obvious that at any time, the 'wikipedia' history is full of screens, gaps, blind spots, and misconceptions.

It's also evident that with a tightly controlled, compartmentalized 'maze' system like this controlling the production of history, there's plenty of opportunity for systematically altering history. If that's being done, then all this Byzantine method and safeguarding was set up to conceal that.

In my own lifetime, I've seen 'history' change a great deal from what was in my World Book Encyclopedia as a kid. Famous quotes have been altered, (Neil Armstrongs 'One small step for Man', for one...)

And now there's even a new paradigm of 'Post Modernism' which says it's just fine to 'deconstruct' history. This seems very like a segue to excuse 'history generation'.

Of course all the while the cloistered scribes are toiling away for a half century in the 'vault' arranging the papers in the right montage order, anyone can print best sellers proposing any paradigm of history they wish--provided they're published. It's a free and open market.

Fomenko's book falls into that category. Along with Von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods", Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision". amd whatever book that was a couple of years ago that claimed Abraham Lincoln was gay. Even best sellers that put forth histories have no effect or sanction from the official academic version of history. They do not follow the approved proceedure for academic approval.

What I find exciting and valid about Fomenko is that he's dealing with a valid aspect that nobody has generally questioned--- the chronology.
He questions it big time.
He may be wildly off in his calculations, but I love the direction of being able to question these timelines!

Another valid point is when he points out that when ursupers stole thrones, they had to rewrite history to validate their Divine Right, as that is surely so and can been proven.

As for math.

Quote:
Theodore Roosevelt said:

"There are lies. There are damn lies. And then there are statistics...."

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Ormond



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 1556
Location: Belly of the Beast, Texas

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hancock uses different methods and makes some startling conclusions as well, in a nutshell says we've been on this planet (as a civilized world) way longer than accepted historians tell us (more like 12-15 thousand years).
~Elbowdeep


I'm no more qualified than anybody else to speak on the annals of 'civilization', but my own thinking is along that line. I suspect there was a lot more going on before the Sumerians popped out of thin air with a full blown astronomy and a BANKING SYSTEM.

I like Fomenko's challange to chronology. I don't entirely agree with his conclusions, but he can look at it through those lenses if he likes.

What I take away from the speculation is that we're generally agreed that the history we're taught is probably seriously manipulated.

Quote:
As Zola wrote, 'the map is not the territory'.


My suspicion is that whether it's recent or or ancient, the history--and theories of evolution we now have--were designed to tailor fit the long standing money system that's come to dominate the world and create this kind of civilization--with it's slavery, wars, and perversity.

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Neil



Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:44 am    Post subject: Let us kill time by waiting for death. Reply with quote

Quote:
’Sometimes I think the organizing principle of any society is for war. The authority of the state over it's people resides in it's war powers’

Mr. X

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/JFK.html



Contents

1 Bipartisan body language-intro

2 Phased redeployment- The U260

3 Plausible deniability-Byzantine politics-911

4 The NWO moves east-Liam Lawlor

5 GHWB and the Centre-Imprimatur on the successor

6 The People versus Big Oil

7 Did the CIA kill Bobby Kennedy? Who killed Alexander Litvinenko\Anna Politkovskaya?

8 History and Historiography

9 Conclusion- Let us kill time by waiting for death…

1 Bipartisan body language-intro

Hi everybody.
I have been following the forum for the past 2 weeks and due to time constraints I don’t have the time to post constantly on different topics at multiple ‘threads’.

Therefore, I going to do a run-down, sort of like the ‘fortnight in review’-style.

Let us begin with the recent ‘rapprochement’ between the Demopublicans and the Republicrats in the November 8 US congressional elections.
Body language or non-verbal communication constitutes 70-80% of all communication and Washington’s congressional leaders have scored highly on the parapolitical rubric, when it comes to Criterion A of the IBO’s MYP Language B Criteria ‘Message and Interaction’.

This phenomenon has of course a socio-political root.
I am a teacher for ages 9-19 and I see it constantly at work (hence my limited free time).
Siblings argue, as do parents, each generation playing one relation off the other like a game of cops and robbers. It’s a classic case of good cop, bad cop.


2 Phased redeployment-

This is simply part of the grand chessboard, which can be summarised under the motto
‘Let us reorganise chaos’.
More troops, more deliberate incompetence, so that the public will demand ‘neutral’ and ‘international’ peacekeepers.
Just like the ‘Lebanon Gambit’ which you nailed Fintan, fair juice to ya.

The British Army did the same thing in their ‘Northern Ireland’ in 1969.
Divide and rule, play the natives off each other, instigate civil war and use false flags, black ops, Trojan horses to keep the British Public war-thirsty, military contracts flowing and increase the powers and sophistication of the British intelligence community’s psychological operations.

Quote:
The Phoenix.... (an Irish investigative magazine)
Well I gave Goldhawk the inside track soon after 9/11
and he was verging on hostile that I would suggest
everything was not 100% kosher with what happened.

Go figger. Other journos I tipped, some national names,
were much more appreciative of the subtleties involved.
They promised to follow my progress with interest...
from a very considerable distance lol.
http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1215&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15


Yes Fintan, it is likely that Goldhawk is either wittingly or unwittingly an ‘MI5 fake’, how else is he getting information for his Phoenix?
Irish Intelligence has long been controlled British and this goes way back.

The earliest I can prove is 1945.

In 2000, I worked as a translator for a small television production company http://www.iol.ie/~hofnanet/ , its producer is ex-RTE, Derek Davis stole the story for Nationwide at one point.
The year before they had interviewed 5 former crew members of a German U-Boat, which had reportedly hit a British mine off the Irish Coast in May 1945.
http://uboat.net/boats/u260.htm

I had the job of translating, transcripting and logging 11 hours of footage, which took 6 weeks.

Anyway, the long and the short of it was that the Germans were trying to get their nuclear technology out of Germany and into the hands of the Japanese, however the US\British\Russian got there first and took the Japanese out in August that year.

Quote:
I was a soldier, Mr. Garrison. Two wars. I was one of those secret guys in the Pentagon that supplies the military hardware - the planes, bullets, rifles - for what we call "black operations" - "black ops", assassinations, coup d'etats, rigging elections, propoganda, psych warfare and so forth. World War II - Rumania, Greece, Yugoslavia, I helped take the Nazi intelligence apparatus out to help us fight the Communists. Italy '48 stealing elections, France '49 breaking strikes - we overthrew Quirino in the Philippines, Arbenz in Guatemala, Mossadegh in Iran. Vietnam in '54, Indonesia '58, Tibet '59 we got the Dalai Lama out - we were good, very good. Then we got into the Cuban thing. Not so good.
Mr X. http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/JFK.html


In my last post, I emphasised the importance of decoding, debunking and deconstructing the ‘global pillage’.
Many thanks Fintan for highlighting the ‘Shell to Sea’ issue I raised last time.

Well, my induction into this school of thought began in February\March 2000.
One of the German officers was the First Mate, who was very coy about what the U-260’s mission was. His body language and phraseology gave it away.
Another hand from Bavaria said that an intelligence officer of some sort boarded the vessel in Kiel when they set forth earlier that spring. This was confirmed by another member separately and without prompting.

It turns out that the U-boat was carrying secret documents and that rather than get killed by US liberty ships in the North Atlantic, the captain ‘decided’ to scuttle the U-Boat, taking the documents along and seek refuge in ‘Neutral Ireland’.
http://www.divesitedirectory.co.uk/dive_site_ireland_cork_baltimore_wreck_U-260.html

They were interned and debriefed by G2, Irish Army Intelligence at the time.
I also saw an interview with the Irish officer who was ‘in charge’ of this.
He literally smiled as he said that these documents ‘fell’ into his hands and 80% were ‘passed’ onto British Intelligence. He said the documents were of a technical nature.

The remaining 20% are in Ireland still and relate to physics, however my boss didn’t have the spondoolicks to send me to the National Library in Dublin and trawl through them.
He has seen them but doesn’t speak German.

On a footnote, he tried to get access to the other 80% in London. The Defense Ministry archive section agreed initially but when he rang back for an appointment they told him that department had been shut down and everyone relocated.

Plausible, yet deniable.

3 Plausible deniability-Byzantine politics-911

Quote:
It's almost as if the Murtha story truly was not meant for dispersal, while Cheney's was poured into a mold for mass manufacture.
http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1215&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15


The points in this post may seem like sporadic incidents, however they link up.
The reason we’re not decoding 911 is that we are forgetting Fintan’s WWW-tenet-
‘Why this story, why now and for what purpose?’

Byzantine politics dictates the following-

Quote:
Listen, I'm a politician, which means I'm a cheat and a liar, and when I'm not kissing babies, I'm stealing their lollipops, but it also means that I keep my options open.

http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/h/hunt-for-red-october-script.html

It doesn’t matter whether we believe the Murtha story or the Cheney story, the point is that that there is always a bigger fish.

Kaiser Soze.

4 The NWO moves east-Liam Lawlor.

Quote:
’I believe the next scheduled re-play of this IT boom grift--this racket-- will be Eastern Europe. Poland, Ukraine...they're not quite politically prepared yet, but they will be in a few more years. They're quite capable, and they work for peanuts. India is already on board’.
http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1215&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15


Spot on Ormond! When I taught near Rostock, Eastern Germany 1996-1997, one of the teachers at the school told me that Russian was the second language during ‘Communist’ times. After 1989, it became English at school but from 1995 onwards Russian returned.

Why? Because 15-20 years later it would be needed again.
They are rebuilding Eastern Germany still, Bulgaria is looking for Irish small investors (the big investors got in there with the mafia years ago).
Then in 2010 it will be Poland; 250,000 now work in Ireland since their entry to the EU on May 1st 2004.
As my father recently told me, while they’ve been working as wage slaves, the Irish investors (i.e. the banks) will have bought up everything and will be selling their country back to them as they struggle to put together a deposit from their hard-earned euro ‘lump sums’.

Neat isn’t it?

Remember Liam Lawlor Fintan?
He was well in with the Czech Mafia with property deals across Eastern Europe for years.

Quote:
’Lawlor was killed on October 22, 2005, when the Mercedes-Benz car he was being driven in on the way from Sheremetyevo International Airport crashed into a concrete lamppost on the Leningrad Shosse, the main road between St. Petersburg and Moscow, twenty-three kilometers from Moscow. Lawlor had been travelling with Julia Kushnir, a Ukrainian legal assistant, aged 29, confirmed by the Lawlor family to be working as Mr Lawlor's interpreter in Russia. She was injured in the crash that killed Mr. Lawlor. The driver, a Russian businessman, Ruslan Suliamanov, was fatally injured, when he swerved the car to avoid a man and a woman who ran out onto the road in front of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Lawlor


This would be an interesting area for research if one had the time.
Anyway, the Sunday Independent’s libellous and scurrilous story about his translator did succeed in one vital aspect.
It drew our attention away from just what Liam Lawlor was doing ‘in bed’ with Czechs, Russians, Czechs and God knows who else.
Notice the following…

Quote:
‘The Russian police initially reported that the woman in Lawlor's car may have been a sixteen-year-old prostitute, the accident occurred near Ikea. The report was the lead in a number of Irish Sunday newspapers’ Ibid.


Catch my drift?
Nokia have muscled into India and China already, just look at all the new Finnair direct routes to the East www.finnair.com

Jorma Ollila became the head of Shell Oil in June 2006.

Checkmate.

5 GHWB and the Centre-Imprimatur on the successor

It’s time for some comedy-

http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2006/11/gb41-lease-amendment.asp

Yes, Daddy knows cognitive dissonance best.

Quote:
’I bet GHW and GWB piss themselves laughing that the proles buy it.
Although the underlying interpersonal dynamics are another story’.

http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9905#9905


Those interpersonal dynamics may likely unearth a lot of the psychology evident in any hierarchical-regal political structure, particularly when he comes to disorientating so-called ‘liberals’.
But let’s move on, keeping an eye on Election 2008.

6 The People versus Big Oil

http://www.breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1258

Good man Dunne!
The answer to this problem may be under our feet.
Turf and Forestry.
Stove technology is primitive compared to what they have in Finland, which is 68% trees.

Cut the turf, burn it, plant trees and keep up the research into zero-point and cold fusion.

Keep highlighting these issues at local\national\global level and watch out for the disinfo merchants, destroying the links and discrediting dedicated ordinary people.

The tactics used at Bellinaboy, County Mayo, Ireland have been honed and perfected at Shannon Airport, ‘Reclaim the Streets’ and are now embedded in the Irish psyche.
Blame the victim for violence and isolate public opinion.

Quote:
’They are violent when their interests are at stake. But all of that violence that they display at the international level, when you and I want just a little bit of freedom, we're supposed to be nonviolent. They're violent. They're violent in Korea, they're violent in Germany, they're violent in the South Pacific, they're violent in Cuba, they're violent wherever they go. But when it comes time for you and me to protect ourselves against lynchings, they tell us to be non-violent’.

http://www.malcolm-x.org/speeches/spc_021465.htm


All you need is someone going on Liveline and saying something like that and the movement is finished.

Remember this-

Fri
24th
Feb Bullying Alternative Health
• How one radio show combined pimping for
Big Pharma and bullying into the bargain.
• Guest Site - IndigoEssences.com Ann
Callaghan
 


Same tactics have been used against health activists, anti-war protestors for years.

7 Did the CIA kill Bobby Kennedy? Who killed Alexander Litvinenko\Anna Politkovskaya?

Hell yes!

Beware of the same psyop at play currently with Russia.

Alexander Litvinenko’s death in London is reaping its benefits for the British establishment already-
Look!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,1956680,00.html

Keep the populace terrified with stories of radioactive poisoning.
In the first place, make Putin look bad by assassinating one of his enemies and watch the political theatre play out.
Politkovskaya was also murdered before a crucial EU-Russia summit, with Finland president of the EU.

Helsinki? SALT treaty- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Arms_Limitation_Talks
East meets west? Reagan and Gorbachev? Jesus the symbolism is mindblowing.

I watched Putin on Finnish television last night, he’s the two-bit actor, the foil for Tony Blair’s polished performance. Once more with feeling…

End result. Public outcry, yesterday Georgia’s foreign minister called for the EU to speak with ‘one voice’, code for ’adopt G8 line’, or fake altercation with Russia.
Putin mumbles something about a conspiracy against him, which we’re not supposed to believe and Oceania and Eurasia go to war like in ‘1984‘.
‘Free Trade’ flourishes once more from Anchorage to Vladistovok.

Item! Just look at what happened yesterday at Stormont-
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2006/1125/1164403421318.html
You remember Michael Stone Fintan and what happened in the North of our country in 1988?
The SAS assassinates 3 unarmed IRA members in Gibraltar on March 6th, causing a public outcry across the Irish ‘diaspora’.
At their funeral on March 16th, a ‘lone nut’ loyalist by the name of Michael Stone attacked the graveside mourners with grenades and a pistol, killing 3 and injuring 60.

On March 19th, at the funeral of the people killed by Stone, 2 undercover British soldiers are ‘accidentally’ drive in to the funeral procession and in front of the world’s media brutally murdered.

End result, Stone, a MI5 agent ‘derails’ peace process (according to Goldhawk) yet also saves it, convincing the Unionists\Republicans that they have any real power in a ‘devolved government’.

In the meantime, the organ grinders in Whitehall live it up at Casino Royale.

George Orwell would be proud of his ‘former’ employers.

8 History and Historiography

Quote:
’Fear is not in the habit of speaking truth; when perfect sincerity is expected, perfect freedom must be allowed; nor has anyone who is apt to be angry when he hears the truth any cause to wonder that he does not hear it’.

Tacitus (c. 56 – c. 117)
Histories, I think.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/tacitus.html


Trinity College Dublin 1992-1996
Those bastards keep sending me their annual ‘Trinity Today’ magazine every November.
It is funny though to see Peter Sutherland strut his stuff with Mary Robinson et al.

They did give me a B.A. Mod in European Studies German\French, whose core subject was History of Ideas, a sort of intellectual stew composed of Metaphysics, Political Philosophy and Cultural History.

Also History, Sociology and Literature. All very West Brit of course.

However, what we learn at school is historiography, not history.

Dark Ages?
Ever seen Mel Brooks’ ‘The History of the World part 1’
In one scene, Moses comes down from Mount Sinai, carrying 3 tablets.

Quote:
‘My brethren, I give to you these 15...drops one tablet which smashes…shit! 10 commandments’.

History to order
It is being written around us by our very own 21st century monks, the mass media!

Dissemination\Gutenberg and Mass religion
The Reformation, the Wars of Religion, the Witchcraze, Early Modern History all stem from this machine. Fortunately, the Internet is still free.


Mercantiles and Protestantism-\Popery\Jesuits
The Calvinists and many other sects are an embodiment of the link between economics and religion.
Who persecuted Galileo? Those fecking Jesuits!

Masonry
I suggest you read Thomas Mann‘s 1929 novella ‘Mario and the Magician’, a brilliant study of Mass Psychology.
The power of Masonic organisations is as follows;
-to convince people they are more powerful than they really are.
-to create a loose cell-like but hierarchical network.
-to make a unified organisation look splintered using smoke and mirrors.

Just like the OSS became the CIA and the RUC became the PSNI, masonry has given us a bewildering array of organisations; the Illuminati, Knights Templar, Pilgrim Society, Opus Dei, The Grand Order of whatever yer having yerself…

Ah Double Bollocks!

9 Conclusion- Let us kill time by waiting for death…

Pierre Desproges, www.desproges.fr the French comedian whose picture now accompanies my posts, expressed this attitude succinctly in one of his ephemeral and eclectic
‘La petite minute nécessaire de Monsieur Cyclopède’ sketches.

Quote:
‘Tuons le temps en attendant la mort’

‘Let us kill time by waiting for death’


I think this quotation also relates to the metaphysical questions unearthed in the audios on life and death etc. of www.treeincarnation.com.

Id est, religion is designed to keep our ‘eyes on the floor, always on the floor’ to quote Reverend Lovejoy from The Simpsons.

Opium of the People? Maybe, as long as people don’t think for themselves and keep their eyes off the universal, the ‘Supermind’ as you term it Fintan.

Well, 5 hours later, all I can say, it’s been nice hearing from you and givng my 5 cents.

On a logistical note, if anyone can give me technical advise on how to post more efficiently, I’m all ears.
It’s heart-warming when people read your posts and give positive and constructive feedback.
I have been amazed how many people I know reiterate similar analysis to what appears on break for news, without me instigating discussion or using any persuasion.
None of them have even heard of the site, so this can only mean we are on the right track.

Keep it country!

Neil.

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'Essayons de ne pas rire avant la fin d'Hamlet'-'Let us try not to laugh before the end of Hamlet'- Pierre Desproges.
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Jerry Fletcher



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Posts: 837
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Neil -

Thanks for your post. Especially this:

Quote:

Historiography
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Historiography is the study of the practice of history. This can take many forms, including the study of historical method and the historical development of history as an academic discipline. The term can also be used to refer a specific body of historical writing. For instance, "medieval historiography during the 1960s" can be taken to mean the methodological approaches and ideas about medieval history present in written history during that decade. As a meta-level analysis of descriptions of the past, this third conception can relate to the first two in that the analysis usually focuses on the narratives, interpretations, worldview, use of evidence, or method of presentation of other historians

Defining historiography

Conal Furay and Michael J. Salevouris define "historiography" as "the study of the way history has been and is written — the history of historical writing... When you study 'historiography' you do not study the events of the past directly, but the changing interpretations of those events in the works of individual historians." (The Methods and Skills of History: A Practical Guide, 1988, p. 223, ISBN 0-88295-982-4)

Although questions of method have concerned historians since Thucydides, many trace the modern study of historiography to E. H. Carr's 1961 work What is History?. Carr challenged the traditional belief that the study of the methods of historical research and writing were unimportant. His work remains in print to this day, and is used in many postgraduate programs of study in the English-speaking world.

Historiography is often political in nature. For example, the Dunning school of historiography, which was sympathetic to former slave owners and leaders of the Confederacy, contended that black people, particularly former slaves, should neither be permitted to vote nor bear arms. In the 1960s, historiography corrected the racism of the Dunning School viewpoint, and history that included the viewpoint of African Americans who had been disenfranchised by the Jim Crow political and economic system that grew up alongside the powerful Dunning School and its way of telling history from the viewpoint of former slave owners. Mid-twentieth century historians also focused on primary sources to reveal previously excluded roles of women, minorities, and labor from earlier histories of the United States. According to these historiographers, historians in the 1930s and 1940s had a bias toward wealthy and well-connected white males. Some historians from that point onward devoted themselves to what they saw as more accurate representations of the past, casting a light on those who had been previously disregarded as non-noteworthy.

The study of historiography demands a critical approach that goes beyond the mere examination of historical fact. Historiographical studies consider the source, often by researching the author, his or her position in society, and the type of history being written at the time.


Basic issues studied in historiography


Some of the common questions of historiography are:
Who wrote the source (primary or secondary)?
For primary sources, we look at the person in his or her society, for secondary sources, we consider the theoretical orientation of the approach for example, Marxist or Annales School, ("total history"), political history, etc.
What is the authenticity, authority, bias/interest, and intelligibility of the source?
What was the view of history when the source was written?
Was history supposed to provide moral lessons?
What or who was the intended audience?
What sources were privileged or ignored in the narrative?
By what method was the evidence compiled?
In what historical context was the work of history itself written?

Issues engaged in so-called critical historiography includes topics such as:
What constitutes an historical "event"?
In what modes does a historian write and produce statements of "truth" and "fact"?
How does the medium (novel, textbook, film, theatre, comic) through which historical information is conveyed influence its meaning?
What inherent epistemological problems does archive-based history contain?
How does the historian establish their own objectivity or come to terms with their own subjectivity?
What is the relation of historical theory to historical practice?
What is the "goal" of history?
What is history?


That's what we're talking about here isn't it? Thanks for that.
I guess I'm just waking up to the fact that all history is, by definition, interpreted by, for the consumption of, people.

I've also noticed people tend to vary in reliability. Wink

Quote:
History to order
It is being written around us by our very own 21st century monks, the mass media!

Dissemination\Gutenberg and Mass religion
The Reformation, the Wars of Religion, the Witchcraze, Early Modern History all stem from this machine. Fortunately, the Internet is still free.


Mercantiles and Protestantism-\Popery\Jesuits
The Calvinists and many other sects are an embodiment of the link between economics and religion.
Who persecuted Galileo? Those fecking Jesuits!


Yeah - the 'Puritan' Protestant sects appear to be the holders of the 'Covenant' law operating below the common law facade.

Interesting to compare the differences between the Plymouth Bay Company, known as the 'Pilgrims', and the Mass. Bay Company, known as, well... the successful ones, I guess. The Puritans brought the Law Merchant to American colonial life. Puritans = Calvinists?

Quote:
Masonry
I suggest you read Thomas Mann‘s 1929 novella ‘Mario and the Magician’, a brilliant study of Mass Psychology.
The power of Masonic organisations is as follows;
-to convince people they are more powerful than they really are.
-to create a loose cell-like but hierarchical network.
-to make a unified organisation look splintered using smoke and mirrors.

Just like the OSS became the CIA and the RUC became the PSNI, masonry has given us a bewildering array of organisations; the Illuminati, Knights Templar, Pilgrim Society, Opus Dei, The Grand Order of whatever yer having yerself…

Ah Double Bollocks!


The Mann book sounds interesting. I'll check it out, thanks.
I didn't mean to 'go illuminati' on the judge thing - I was just pointing out the correlations between the 'rituals' of the 'merchant guilds' and the 'theatre' played out in the bifurcated civil / commercial "halls of justice."

'Mason' just rolls off the tongue, don't it? Old conspiracy habits die hard. Wink

Quote:
On a logistical note, if anyone can give me technical advise on how to post more efficiently, I’m all ears.


An in-depth study of the Lost and Forgotten Art of the Poop Joke can lead to a certain comic finesse that can increase the interest and comprehension of your readers. Other than that, just keep em coming! Wink

Cheers!
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Neil



Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:28 pm    Post subject: Yes, but is it Art? Reply with quote

Hi Jerry,

Thanks a million for the feedback.
I tend to take note of stuff I read in the forum across multiple subjects and it all kind of spills out spontaneously in one go.

Historiography is a little-known area, which a lot of history teachers spurn in favour of textbook answers and shortcuts.
Even Grade 8-level students at 13-14 years of age can distinguish between them and apply them separately, just as their abstract thinking skills are beginning to develop.
Cognitive development aside, it is an important skill for all ages and abilities.
As are logic, rhetoric, reason and metaphysics.
At some point the scholastic\sceptic tradition was hijacked by careerist churchmen more concerned with the control of information than its exploration.

I believe Fintan highlighted this recently in an audio, where he pointed out the Enlightenment as the zenith of human reason, until the French Revolution\Romanticism\Nihilism tore the arse out of it altogether.
The result is a modernist education system which ignores the inner\subjective\intrinsic potential of the human mind in favour of the external\objective\extrinsic world.

As Morrissey would put it
Quote:
‘Head in the clouds and a mouth full of pie…’
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/morrissey/dagenham-dave.html


I recall when studying Early Modern Europe such a bizarre array of faiths, which could only confound the scholar.
For the student of history of ideas, the effect is one of ‘an orgy of evidence’, misdirection and disinfo.
The ceaseless sub-contracting of belief-systems ensures a lack of consensus among society and ultimate control of political and social by interconnected elites, using religion as a subjugating mechanism.

Mario and the Magician gives you a snapshot of the mass psychology of fascism circa 1930, through the lens of a vaudeville Italian hypnotist\mesmerist.
Whenever I hear the word mason, I also think of the Simpsons episode with the stonecutter’s song.

Quote:
Who controls the British Crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do, we do.
Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do, we do.
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star?
We do, we do.
Who robs cave fish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!

http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?hid=qqdg9Am3%2Fls%3D


In many respects, the whole secret society thing is a fear mechanism, designed to keep people afraid of a palpable but undetected enemy, which is exactly why people like Alex Jones et al. peddle\bootleg it like the snake oil-salesmen they really are.

Nonetheless you’re perfectly correct to point out what we can prove about the guild system and its similarities with the judiciary, the legislature and even the executive branches of government.
Hell, if it works for medieval artisans, why not cross-pollenate it to the city council, the district court and the cabinet.

In that case, hierarchy begins with economics (agriculture and the first cities\organised societies) Mesopotamia\Yellow river\Nile etc.
Out of this is born a political structure to ‘prevent anarchy’ of course.
This elite then invents an organised religion to emphasise and indoctrinate the pyramidal nature of civilisation.
Even hunter-gatherer societies have this tendency although in localised subsidiary.

Thus Economics-Politics-Religion interface in that order.

In the meantime I shall develop my ‘poop joke’ technique to provide some comic relief!

Quote:
‘Let us attempt to confuse a trilingual secretary’ Pierre Desproges


Yes, but is it Art? Question

P.S. Fintan, love the new newsbyte format about Shell to Sea, any chance of something about Michael Stone\Northen Ireland Peace process or Russian political assassinations? Wink

_________________
'Essayons de ne pas rire avant la fin d'Hamlet'-'Let us try not to laugh before the end of Hamlet'- Pierre Desproges.
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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Yes, but is it Art? Reply with quote

Neil wrote:
Hi Jerry,

Thanks a million for the feedback.
I tend to take note of stuff I read in the forum across multiple subjects and it all kind of spills out spontaneously in one go.


My pleasure.

That's cool - I'm constantly alternating between microscope and telescope myself. Discussing subjects in detail is how I unearth information, however looking at the relationships between subjects is where I find meaning - so I can relate.

Quote:
Historiography is a little-known area, which a lot of history teachers spurn in favour of textbook answers and shortcuts.
Even Grade 8-level students at 13-14 years of age can distinguish between them and apply them separately, just as their abstract thinking skills are beginning to develop.


However at this age, critical thinking skills are paralyzed by a sudden new awareness - boobies! In some successfully socialized males, this paralysis lasts a lifetime. Wink

Quote:

Cognitive development aside, it is an important skill for all ages and abilities.
As are logic, rhetoric, reason and metaphysics.
At some point the scholastic\sceptic tradition was hijacked by careerist churchmen more concerned with the control of information than its exploration.


Not to mention the 'Inquisition' put a damper on inspiring new and exciting ideas.

Quote:

I believe Fintan highlighted this recently in an audio, where he pointed out the Enlightenment as the zenith of human reason, until the French Revolution\Romanticism\Nihilism tore the arse out of it altogether.
The result is a modernist education system which ignores the inner\subjective\intrinsic potential of the human mind in favour of the external\objective\extrinsic world.


The Enlightenment may have been the zenith of human craftiness, however, from my perspective, it appears to have helped keep the creative human imagination confined in a box scientific rationalism.

IMO, critical thinking has to first and foremost presume the non-scientific nature of the thinker and the 'supernatural' element of thoughts.


Quote:
I recall when studying Early Modern Europe such a bizarre array of faiths, which could only confound the scholar.
For the student of history of ideas, the effect is one of ‘an orgy of evidence’, misdirection and disinfo.
The ceaseless sub-contracting of belief-systems ensures a lack of consensus among society and ultimate control of political and social by interconnected elites, using religion as a subjugating mechanism.


Agreed. What's worse, the student is made to feel 'stupid' cause he can't assimilate this goulash of names, dates, and wars into a mental 'picture' of history.

All I kept coming up with was a Pollack painting.

Quote:
In many respects, the whole secret society thing is a fear mechanism, designed to keep people afraid of a palpable but undetected enemy, which is exactly why people like Alex Jones et al. peddle\bootleg it like the snake oil-salesmen they really are.


Makes me think of the Wizard of Oz. The the big scary voice of Big Brother is actually frightened little man behind a curtain. Drawing cartoons of a mouse, no less!


Quote:

In that case, hierarchy begins with economics (agriculture and the first cities\organised societies) Mesopotamia\Yellow river\Nile etc.
Out of this is born a political structure to ‘prevent anarchy’ of course.


Although I'm still on the fence about the actual 'cradle of civilization' I agree that the development of agriculture gave rise to concepts such as surplus, trade, labor, ownership, and nationalistic tendencies.

Quote:
This elite then invents an organised religion to emphasise and indoctrinate the pyramidal nature of civilisation.
Even hunter-gatherer societies have this tendency although in localised subsidiary.

Thus Economics-Politics-Religion interface in that order.


They do all seem to depend on each other. Although, I assume the pre-agricultural social practices were more 'religious' or God-centric, since all surplus and energy was provided by Him. I kind of see the parallel between Christian ideology and mercantile economic development as an attempt to portray commerce as an ideological development of culture.

That's why I think the Crusades preceded the corporate colonialism of the West - the streets of the new world were 'paved' with a religious ideology that ensured a smooth cultural ride for the new economic ideas of corporate fiction and 'commonwealth.'

Then political institutions were designed to enforce the latter, on the basis of the former. So, I guess I sort of see social control as having a Religious - Economic - Political shape.

I guess the important point is that they are all necessary elements that, under centralized control, lead to the global agendas we see operating today.

Quote:
In the meantime I shall develop my ‘poop joke’ technique to provide some comic relief!


Perhaps restraint is a better policy in this area, or you're liable to cause a mess like this. Wink
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Azoth



Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 758

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject: x Reply with quote

was going to start a new thread but saw some mention of it above.

the line about masons and their orders.

but firstly, what Is the consensus? at bfn on masons? are they or are they not (one of?) the major ring leaders? have read that they are just scapegoats. while Alan Watt says they are basically IT (when i listen to his shows i get that hopeless felling).

but the specific line about ...making people feel they have more power than they really do. now that's a biggey.

many folks say the masons are behind All orders. i'd like to know how much the golden dawn's material is total brain wash bunk. i'm a student of this and do see many parallels with other sacred traditions. duh, meaning after much study there is valid (Perenial) wisdom there. tho they got carried away with pompous ritual and redundancy.

kinda of a paradox here. so many books with their "create your own reality" angle. oh gee, i guess i did'nt visualize hard enough...
then we've got the supermind and the proven powers of the human mind.

i also find it funny that the eastern systems deal more directly with energy while the west is caught up in abstraction.

>>>>>

lastly, there was mention of all the bits and pieces of (fabricated) history, creating a hopeless smorgasborb of guessing. or something like that.
read last year that schools in europe are ditching courses on norse myth and culture. have been a student of this (in rune research) and see this as another distancing from reality.
the norse (or icelandics) had the Thing. which is behind any remnants of Fair play we have today, to so put it, imo.
they also had Yggdrasil. now the lore behind all this is so vastly different than the kabbalistic tree, which is basically an exercise in hierarchy.
you get the point..... tho...this hierarchy, in the context of metaphysics is rather beautiful. it's like neo-platonic emanationist theory.
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Jerry Fletcher



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:12 pm    Post subject: 'Con' sensus... Reply with quote

Azoth wrote:
the line about masons and their orders.

but firstly, what Is the consensus? at bfn on masons? are they or are they not (one of?) the major ring leaders? have read that they are just scapegoats.


I don't think there's much of a consensus about anything here, which is probably for the best. Rather than trying to build consensus, I feel like this board is bunch of people who respect each other's opinions and amplify each other's thinking.

Historically, it appears to me that state sponsored consensus about who's to blame for what leads to unfortunate situations like world wars.


Quote:
while Alan Watt says they are basically IT (when i listen to his shows i get that hopeless felling).


Yeah. Me too. That's why I stopped listening to Alan Watt.

Quote:
many folks say the masons are behind All orders. i'd like to know how much the golden dawn's material is total brain wash bunk. i'm a student of this and do see many parallels with other sacred traditions. duh, meaning after much study there is valid (Perenial) wisdom there. tho they got carried away with pompous ritual and redundancy.


Well, there's a lot of different ways to look at those issues, so here are some general thoughts about the 'secret society' concept, from the perspective of your earlier concept, consensus.

While I think just about everybody has the feeling that there is some sort of duplicitous social engineering operating behind the scenes of modern society, I don't think you'll find many who agree on whom exactly is 'behind it all'.

If consensual social reality was indeed a product of global energy merchants, then would not the conspiratorial thread of this hidden history be woven into the social fabric by those same architects?

In fact, the 'hidden', or private side of any public institution can be implicated as potentially 'behind it all'. Church, Government, Masons, Draconian renegades from the Galactic Federation, whatever. In any corporate structure, which all these groups follow, the compartmentalized hierarchy of information is limited to a smaller and smaller circle of initiates.

Rather than try to identify the 'bad pyramid', I'd be interested to slice the capstone off em all, and have a look inside.

I have a feeling the penthouse of the Blue Lodge shares some striking similarities with the top floor of Citibank, the Vatican, or the Pentagon.

Perhaps the relentless search for the 'conspiratorial pyramid' blinds us to the possibility that every social pyramid is conspiratorial by definition.

All employees might chant the corporate motto at the picnic, but in reality, management and labor can never have the same consensual 'bottom line'.

Perhaps attempting to identify the 'culprit' makes it even more difficult to understand the cause.



Quote:
i also find it funny that the eastern systems deal more directly with energy while the west is caught up in abstraction.


And confusion between abstract and concrete energies makes the human mind particularly susceptible to manipulation, IMO.


Quote:

lastly, there was mention of all the bits and pieces of (fabricated) history, creating a hopeless smorgasborb of guessing. or something like that.


hehe.

Yeah, we've got quite a historical smorgasborg going on here:

History: Fiction or Science?

Check it out!
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Azoth



Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 758

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:49 am    Post subject: x Reply with quote

hi. as in other areas of study, labels seems to be the only variables!

hell and exploitation... all supposedly part of the plan.

so i guess it's ok then!

this mayan material is awesome. but i'm appalled at my emotional dis-equalibrium. i'll listen to Mr. Watt and feel like keeling over...then i'll peruse the mayan stuff and do a 180. sop, for a scorpio with 6 water signs!

had my own google session in trying to find a critique of the golden dawn's material. could'nt find anything outside the usual. for now, i'll take that as a good sign.

i'm exhausted right now and too fried to start another post. so i'll just type here that the kabbalsitic tree traditionally has 10 sephira and 22 paths.
but this focus on 13 by the mayans is so neat....
well, if we take the ten spephira and add the three bands Above kether (representing light/limitless light/void); bingo.

the thing about ambiguities betwixt subtle energies and abstract thought etc. this is what kabbalah is all about. i'm now wondering how the traditional stages and overall process of alchemy fits into this mayanized cosmic plan.
and what about squares with saturn!!!!!!!!?????

it would be nice to hear you in a follow up interview!
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:55 pm    Post subject: Mark Twain Reply with quote

Ormond wrote:
Quote:
Theodore Roosevelt said:

"There are lies. There are damn lies. And then there are statistics...."

As much as I respect both Ormond & Theodore Roosevelt, as a matter of clarification, this quote is originally attributed to Mark Twain.
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