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R. Buckminster Fuller
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just0



Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 731

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:06 am    Post subject: R. Buckminster Fuller Reply with quote

If you like thought provoking material, come on in, get cumfy, relax,
your in for a treat....

These video-taped lectures give a taste of the thinking process of
someone who could be described as an innovator and inventor in the
truest sense of the word. A scientist of experience rather than theory.

The full spectrum of the implications of his discoveries and observations
are much too large to be attemped to be explained here.

The lectures are a relatively tiny slice of some of buckminster fuller's
ideas and thinking, he is said to be the most documented human life in
history, so its a task in choosing where to start for an introduction.

Apart from being known for his Geodesic domes its Amazing how
relatively few people are aware of his ideas.

To explain such an individual, It couldn't be more fitting to start by
applying some of his ideas to help.

Synergy, what he himself thought to be the most important word
and the most important principle to be understood by humanity.

Quote:
Synergy ~ The behavior of systems, unpredicted by the behavior
of the individual parts.


So, in order to properly study any system you have to see the part in
terms of its most significant and greater whole.

Everything is synergy, its one of those principles that is fundamental to
nature. Molecules have behavours that are not predicted by their
individual parts taken seperately, two dangerous chemical elements
taken seperately can be highly reactive or poisonous, but taken as a
whole can be harmless, as is the case with tablesalt for example.

Not seeing the wood for the trees doesn't happen with synergy,
nature didn't decide to spend all its energy in getting one organism
working and forget about the rest for a moment.

The thinking process which we're all going through right now is a
synergy, we're not as caught up in the minutia of specifics as much as
before, we're seeing the bigger picture and becoming more aware of
whats really going down in society. Things which we never even imagined
could be happening in front of us, it was by stepping back that we found
those connecting threads that changed our reality.

Fullers thinking is deeply rooted in the principles of synergy and by
understanding and employing natures generalised principles he was
able to have great success in discovering countless special case
applications of his ideas.

Insofar as his beutiful ideas and discoveries go, they are all simply
pointing out something that is greater than their sum total.

So to get a feel of some more of the ideas, try picking a random video
stream from the list and watching some of the lecture.

Quote:
For a sample of some of the "synergetic-energetic" geometric
demonstrations, go to ;


3rd_Town_Hall_Series_New_York_1971_pt2
-Closest packed spheres (12 around one) - - Timecode 36:00
-"Jitterbug" Demo (Inside-outing) - - Timecode 40:00

San_Francisco_1976_pt1
-Precession- - Timecode 00:00

Delos_Symposium(pt1)
Delos_Symposium(pt2)
Delos_Symposium(pt3)
Delos_Symposium(pt4)

Minnesota_Earth_Day

1st_Town_Hall_Series_New_York_1971_pt1
1st_Town_Hall_Series_New_York_1971_pt2
1st_Town_Hall_Series_New_York_1971_pt3
2nd_Town_Hall_Series_New_York_1971_pt1
2nd_Town_Hall_Series_New_York_1971_pt2
3rd_Town_Hall_Series_New_York_1971_pt1
3rd_Town_Hall_Series_New_York_1971_pt2
3rd_Town_Hall_Series_New_York_1971_pt3
3rd_Town_Hall_Series_New_York_1971_pt4


San_Francisco_1976_pt1
San_Francisco_1976_pt2
San_Francisco_1976_pt3
San_Francisco_1976_pt4

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Fintan
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:46 am    Post subject: This Just In..... Reply with quote



Fuller's work goes to the heart of 'number'
in a way that is unprecedented since the
time of plato and ancient number wisdom.

And.....
This just in: Wink

Quote:
Sacred geometry: Invisible blueprint of life

November 13, 2006 10:06 am - By Teddye Snell, Press Staff Writer

From the Egyptians to the Greeks, from the Kabbalistic Jews to the Christians, sacred geometry has been taught throughout time to initiates as a closely guarded secret.

According to Dr. Robert Gilbert, a former U.S. Marine Corps intructor in nuclear-biological-chemical warfare survival who holds a doctorate in international studies, the world is being shaped - sometimes for the worse - by a modern science that manipulates life’s natural patterns, while lacking the contextual understanding to do so responsibly.

Gilbert delivered a two-day seminar, “Sacred Geometry: The Invisible Blueprint of Life,” Friday and Saturday at Sancta Sophia Seminary on Sparrowhawk Mountain.

Gilbert offered attendees insight into once-secret initiation teachings about the hidden relationships between the physical and spiritual worlds. Sacred geometry is the basis for the sacred science of Egypt, and the Pythagorean science of vibrational energies. According to Gilbert, it’s the master key to expanding spiritual awareness, as well as healing the physical body and correcting energetic problems.

Sacred geometry can be related to the “Platonic solids,” or the five shapes that can divide a circle or sphere perfectly. The five forms are the tetrahedron, the octahedron, the hexahedron (cube), the icosahedron and the dodecahedron.

Plato wrote about them in the dialogue “Timaeus,” and he associated each with of the four classical elements. Earth was associated with the cube; air with the octahedron; water with the icosahedron; and fire with the tetrahedron. There was intuitive justification for these associations: The heat of fire feels sharp and stabbing (like little tetrahedra). Air is made of the octahedron; its minuscule components are so smooth that one can barely feel it. Water, the icosahedron, flows out of one’s hand when picked up, as if it is made of tiny little balls. But a highly un-spherical solid, the hexahedron (cube) represents earth. These clumsy little solids cause dirt to crumble and breaks when picked up, in stark contrast to the smooth flow of water.

Plato obscurely says the fifth Platonic solid, the dodecahedron, “...the god used for arranging the constellations on the whole heaven.” Aristotle added a fifth element, “ether,” and postulated that the heavens were made of this element, but he had no interest in matching it with Plato's fifth solid.

It was this fifth solid Gilbert expounded upon.

“The dodecahedron was not widely taught,” said Gilbert. “It is the pure, spiritual lifeforce, and people were told to keep it hidden, as if it were misused, it could create terrible destruction.”

Gilbert indicated many scientists – including those with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration – now believe the earth is shaped like a dodecahedron. Given this information, one of the nodes on the dodecahedron falls in the same area as the famous “Bermuda Triangle.”

“Using a dodecahedron on a world grid analysis, you’ll see the nodal points, pressure points in space and time,” said Gilbert. “Other nodal points on the earth have been known as ‘devil’s graveyards’ because space and time don’t work right.”

Modern scholars disregarded the idea of the Platonic solids until the 1980s, when Professor Emeritus Robert Moon at the University of Chicago demonstrated the entire periodic table of elements - everything known in the physical world - is based on these five forms.

“Moon worked on the Manhatten Project,” said Gilbert. “He discovered that the form for uranium is a double-dodecahedron. The periodic table is a revelation of the spirit - thoughts from the mind of God.”

Gilbert showed a slide of the first nuclear weapon: Its shape was a dodecahedron.

“The element palladium, No. 46 on the periodic table, is part of the platinum family and is connected to alchemy,” said Gilbert. “When palladium is used in combination with other metals and electronic stimulation, it creates what some refer to as cold fusion. However, the problem with cold fusion is that it is not constant. Energetic conditions shift from time to time and place to place, and can even be affected by the person conducting the experiment, much to scientists’ dismay.”
People might find it surprising that Gilbert never really cared for math.
“I never liked math,” said Gilbert. “But geometry is different. As children, we play with shapes and natural forms, but prematurely we force children to look at them in a mathematical process. Math is useful for analysis, but it doesn’t free the soul.”

Gilbert’s reason for providing this information is three-fold.

“In understanding the patterns behind everything in the manifest world, we can start to change things in our personal lives,” he said. “In teaching sacred geometry, people begin to understand the unity between science and spirit. It confirms we can be understood without religious dogma, as it’s a type of spirituality that unites people. Finally, it provides a unity between traditions based on what we all encounter; geometry is universal in nature, no matter what the religion.

Since leaving the service in 1985, Gilbert has conducted independent research into the geometric basis of modern science and new technologies. He is also a Rosicrucian with more than 20 years’ experience in sacred geometry and its hidden uses by the world’s spiritual traditions.

In 1997, he began for the first time to teach publicly the results of his two decades of intensive research, and continues teaching both publicly and privately in Asheville, N.C.

While at Sparrowhawk Village, Gilbert and his wife, Elizabeth, stayed with Dr. Robert Willson, former dean of Sancta Sophia Seminary and inventor of the technology for the plasma-screen television.
Willson was highly interested in Gilbert’s work.

“I resisted [the theory of sacred geometry] for a long time, because I couldn’t break free from my own scientific background,” said Willson. “After reading several wonderful books on the subject, I just surrendered, and now I get it!”

http://www.tahlequahdailypress.com/features/local_story_317100635.html?keyword=secondarystory


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Continuity



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1716
Location: Municipal Flat Block 18A, Linear North

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's interesting.

AFAIK, though, the first atom bomb was a 'gun-type' device which consisted of a long cylinder with a subcritical mass at one end, and a 'gun' at the other which fired another, smaller, subcritical mass into the target at the other end, thus forming a super-critical mass which then exploded.

This bomb would have been roughly cylindrical in shape, like 'Little Boy' which was dropped on Hiroshima.

I think that the reason that 'compression' atom bombs (like the 'Fat Man' bomb dropped on Nagasaki) are dodecahedral in shape inside their bomb casings is because that was the shape the explosive plates made when shaped around the subcritical 'pit' forming an 'explosive lens'.

All these panels have to be fired at *exactly* the same time to crush the atomic mass instantly to make it go critical - I believe that they also had to develop special 'kryten' ultra-high speed switches at the time to achieve this.

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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject: Synergy! Reply with quote

Quote:
The thinking process which we're all going through right now is a
synergy, we're not as caught up in the minutia of specifics as much as
before, we're seeing the bigger picture and becoming more aware of
whats really going down in society. Things which we never even imagined
could be happening in front of us, it was by stepping back that we found
those connecting threads that changed our reality.


Just0 - thanks for those links.

BUCKY RULES!!!

He is able to conceptually articulate as 'ideas' things that I could only attribute to 'feelings' or 'hunches'.

Or 'intuition'.

He provides a toolset for building bridges over the 'stream of consciousness' so minds can actually get together for a chat rather than waving from opposite banks.

Synergy! I get it. Not necessarily 'more' than the sum of the parts, but more unpredictable than the individual elements.

Duh! Once combined, the elements 'become' a participant in a different system and perform a different universal 'function'.

I wonder if this 'extra' function is a product of the latent potential of the elements 'activated' by critical proximity, or if these 'extra qualities' are a result of the interaction of the 'new' element 'accessing' the energy of the 'new' environment, or system in which it is participating?

Of course I have to metadata the metadata process - I can't help it!

Looks like Bucky wrote the book on the 'Mechanics of Modern Metadata Management.' Now, where can I find the CliffsNotes?

Then again, who cares? If it works, it works.
Love this stuff.
Thanks for a great big brain cookie!
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just0



Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 731

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:19 am    Post subject: More.... Reply with quote

Quote:
Thanks for a great big brain cookie!


Hehe, I love brain biscuits too....or, Mind Munchies Laughing

Bucky 'call me trimtab' fuller...what a dude. Very Happy

Quote:
Something hit me very hard once, thinking about what one little
man could do. Think of the Queen Mary‹the whole ship goes by and
then comes the rudder. And there's a tiny thing on the edge of the
rudder called a trim-tab. It's a miniature rudder. Just moving that
little trim-tab builds a low pressure that pulls the rudder around.
Takes almost no effort at all. So I said that the little individual can
be a trim-tab. Society thinks it's going right by you, that it's
left you altogether. But if you're doing dynamic things mentally,
the fact is that you can just put your foot out like that and the whole
big ship of state is going to go. So I said, 'Call me Trimtab'.


Quote:
Discoveries are uniquely regenerative to the explorer and are most powerful
on those rare occasions when a generalized principle is discovered. When mind
discovers a generalized principle permeating whole fields of special-case
experiences, the discovered relationship is awesomely and elatingly beautiful
to the discoverer personally, not only because to the best of his knowledge it
has been heretofore unknown, but also because of the intuitively sensed potential
of its effect upon knowledge and the consequently improved advantages accruing
to humanity’s survival and growth struggle in Universe. The stimulation is not
that of the discoverer of a diamond, which is a physical entity that may be
monopolized or exploited only to the owner’s advantage. It is the realization
that the newly discovered principle will provide spontaneous, common-sense
logic engendering universal cooperation where, in many areas, only confusion
and controversy had hitherto prevailed. [synergetics 250.02]






The audio and video archive is @ Stanford University.

http://collections.stanford.edu/bucky/bin/page?forward=home



I found some of the material below to be the most mind blowing so far....

enjoy Wink



Quote:
A Fuller Web: Books/Tapes/Links

http://www.hearingvoices.com/webwork/bucky/fuller8.html

Synergetics FAQ

http://www.cjfearnley.com/fuller-faq.html#toc2

Synergetics on the Web

http://www.grunch.net/synergetics/

Book - Synergetics: Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking

http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/synergetics.html

Book - A fuller explanation

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/45a.html

Some "Jitterbug" (vector equlibrium) transormations.

http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/OswegoOct2001/Presentation/prsentationWeb3.html

Synergy in Health

http://fnd.org/pgs/health/great_unwinding.htm

Book - Synergy in Number (Syndex)

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Campus/7107/index.html


reply with links here, if you find any other good synergetic 'angles'

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:09 am    Post subject: Buckminsterine C-60 Reply with quote



Collection of Buckyballs (Buckminsterfullerenes)
Buckyball Thin Film on Silver


Fullerenes are a class of closed, hollow carbon compounds that comprise only the third form of pure carbon ever discovered. The most remarkable of the fullerenes is the 60-carbon alkene buckminsterfullerene, also known as a Buckyball. This highly unusual molecule was named after the geodesic dome, a structure that exhibits a geometry that approximates a truncated icosohedral soccerball-shape, invented by visionary engineer, author, and architect R. Buckminster Fuller. The roundest known molecule in the world, the Buckyball has carbon atoms at 60 chemically equivalent vertices that are connected by 32 faces, 12 of which are pentagonal and 20 hexagonal. Due to their unique structure, Buckyballs are remarkably rugged, being capable of surviving collisions with metals and other materials at speeds in excess of 20,000 miles per hour, a pace that would tear most organic molecules apart. Higher and lower order Buckyballs containing different numbers of carbon atoms deviate from the strict geodesic dome structure and are consequently not as stable, but are still composed primarily of pentagons and hexagons. Smaller fullerenes, often termed Buckybabies, are said to have a shape akin to that of asteroids, while larger fullerenes may appear similar in shape to a pentagon.


Edge of a C-60 Thin Film

The discovery of fullerenes, which exhibit a number of notable characteristics that make the possibilities of their use seem almost limitless, was an important moment in the history of science. This achievement is generally attributed to Richard Smalley and Robert Curl of Rice University as well as Harold Kroto of the University of Sussex, whose experiments aimed at understanding the mechanisms by which long-chain carbon molecules are formed in interstellar space surreptitiously produced Buckyballs in the mid-1980s. In 1996, Smalley, Curl, and Kroto were awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for their discovery. Yet, the discovery of fullerenes did not necessarily mean that there was a readily available way to study them. For a time, much of the work regarding fullerenes was chiefly theoretical since a practical means of producing significant amounts of the molecules was unknown until 1988, when astrophysicists Donald Huffman and Wolfgang Kratschmer realized that they had already discovered a way to produce them years before, though at that time they did not know the import of their actions. The Huffman/Kratschmer process soon made it possible to generate isolable quantities of fullerenes by causing an arc between two graphite rods to burn in a helium atmosphere and extracting the carbon condensate that resulted utilizing an organic solvent.


C-60 Thin Film

In 1991, Science magazine dubbed the Buckyball "molecule of the year," professing it "the discovery most likely to shape the course of scientific research in the years ahead," a statement that, years later, does not appear unsubstantiated. Studies exploring the extraordinary characteristics of Buckyballs and potential uses for them are ongoing and the molecules may eventually wind their way into daily life as practical applications are developed. One of the most promising areas of Buckyball research is in the realm of materials science, many scientists believing that the extremely stable molecules could yield new and improved lubricants, protective coatings, and other materials. But, even more exciting to some are the possible materials that may be produced by combining the carbon framework of the Buckyball with different atoms. The process of knocking one or more carbon atoms out of the Buckyball structure and replacing it with metal atoms is known as doping, and the molecule in its altered form is often referred to as a dopeyball. The electrical and magnetic properties of dopeyballs have been the subject of intense study, which has already resulted in the discovery that potassium-doped Buckyballs are capable of superconducting at 18 K and those doped with rubidium superconduct at 30 K.


Edge of a C-60 Thin Film

In addition to doping Buckyballs with other atoms, the hollow structure of the geodesic molecules makes it possible to trap atoms inside them like a molecular cage. This strange capability of Buckyballs has caught the attention of the medical community. Indeed, many researchers believe that eventually Buckyballs may be used to deliver medicines to specific tissues and cells, such as those that have been attacked by a certain bacteria, protecting the rest of the body from the toxic effects of potent pharmaceuticals. This same concept is currently being used to develop improved Medical Resonance Imaging (MRI) contrast agents and image enhancers that exploit the carbon cage of a Buckyball to shield patients from the radioactive materials inside. There are also many non-medical possibilities for atom-filled Buckyballs, which are termed endohedral metallofullerenes (EMFs) when the atoms trapped inside are metallic. For instance, EMFs are well on their way to being utilized in organic solar cells and may one day be crucial components of nanoelectronic devices, which many predict will eventually revolutionize the modern communications industry. Some EMFS have also shown potential for use as chemical catalysts that could be delivered to support surfaces in novel ways.


C-60 Thin Film

What is perhaps most amazing about Buckyballs is that despite their circuitous discovery in the laboratory, they have been naturally present on Earth all along. The earliest evidence that Buckyballs occur in nature was discovered by Arizona State University researchers Semeon Tsipursky and Peter Buseck, who found that a sample of rare, carbon-rich rock called shungit, estimated to have been formed between 600 million and 4 billion years ago, contained both C60 and C70 fullerenes. Since then, the fascinating molecules have also been identified in meteorites, impact craters, and materials struck by lightning. This new information has led some scientists to speculate about the role that fullerenes may have played in the development of life on Earth. Indeed, gases are known to become readily trapped inside the hollow molecules, and one research group has already found evidence of a form of helium in Buckyballs taken from the Sudbury crater (which contains the greatest known concentration of fullerenes in the world) that likely originated not inside of our own solar system, but within a red giant star. Thus, many consider it to be theoretically possible that Buckyballs carried from their stellar origin both the carbon essential to life and the volatiles that helped produce the planetary conditions necessary for life to begin.


Link to Collection of Buckyballs (Buckminsterfullerenes)
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just0



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:28 pm    Post subject: Bucky on the future, in 1974. Reply with quote

Bucky giving some of his views on the hurdles we would need to
overcome in order to make a working world-around society. Including
some of his reasoning for why politics is irrelevant and the ways
in which education and economics will need to change.

Well worth checking out, not shure about the interviewer tho. Wink

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:22 pm    Post subject: Earth on a Buckyball Reply with quote

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just0



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Bucky on the future, in 1974. Reply with quote

The Interviewer from the video posted above, Harold Channer, has
been doing public access television for a long time and has some very
interesting ideas on the future of economics. Heres a lecture where he
deals with some of the economic ideas of Buckminster Fuller, Louis Kelso
and more, I think a lot of this relates to the kinds of things we're looking
into for the FSL project.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time Warner in the Akron area (test market for national rollout) has NEVER provided the Public Access according to Federal and Local agreements, so many stations to community tiered to however many cable stations. They provided I think ONE channel, to be shared with public schools, so that local producers are given only midnight.

They introduced new standards where the publisher has to pay $25 per showing (so a dozen shows or repeats = $300 per week out of pocket). Other restrictions which violate Federal agreements, like no censorship. They just reneged, even tho their cost is ZERO, and they play MUZAK in place of vibrant local producers.

In addition while they charge, they STILL do not allow profits or sales or solicitations for donations to cover costs.

The also levied fines based on "standards to be published" according to their own documents. They also introduced new rules regarding location, so video events from Cleveland, Columbus (the State capital) or Washington DC or even other local suburbs cannot be covered. Unless you're a church they like. One of the churches was somehow exempted, on an ad hoc basis.

This was due to activist media criticizing the service (lack thereof) (cameras and training for community was to be provided, and publicizing it for residents) and criticism of the City.

Talk about artificial scarcity.



I LIKE how this Harold Channer fella describes Kelso and binary economics.

My DOUBT is based on my memory that in previous decades they ran with this line about freedom. Have you heard this before?

During the development of this high-tech robotics stuff in the 70's mostly, and during labor-resistance to automation, people were told NOT to resist this innovation, that increases in productivity would lead to increases in wealth and leisure across the board. Robots were only going to be used for welding and painting, dangerous and messy stuff people don't want to do.

What we've seen is the opposite effect insofar as prosperity and leisure. Human beings competing with LOW cost capital investments in technology and machines, which have MUCH higher production capabilities, MUST lower TCO, don't need health care or vacations and mostly they never cause the kinds of management problems that humans cause.

What we've seen is workers eliminated and forced downward into low paying service jobs, less skilled workers shoved into temp jobs or very casual day labor, and chronic unemployment combined with desperation and poverty. Entrepreneurs in the city sell crack.

In brown countries, many people have been driven into even deeper desperation. Chossudovsky (whatever you think of him insofar as his web peers) wrote about Poverty as an Input in his economics book. In this scenario, the problems for business always include the need for increasing profits. The solution is the intentional creation of poverty around the globe, which drives labor costs down (what labor is still needed), to the point that it might be able to compete with machines. But no deflation for goods. As a matter of fact, the "free market" has synchronized "world prices" globally from what I've heard, so food and seed and basic staples are priced similarly in rich and poor countries and regions.

I have seen LITTLE intent so far to simply GIVE this ownership away, primarily for the reasons stated in the video. That's not how things work, democratization of wealth. Will this change? Will this change if people do not DEMAND and THREATEN?

I realize that I am asking the same question as the girl in the audience about starving people, but I have not so far seen anything more than lip service in this direction, there seems to have been been little to no interest in rectifying these inequities, and rather simply letting 'market forces' as currently defined sort things out and let the chips fall.

I'm going to look at more of this on this page.

Justin, other than those who signed on with this book, have you seen any SERIOUS effort at implementing anything like this? I'd rather prefer this than the Alex Jones doom-and-gloom scenario of camps and population reduction plans, but my understanding of how things work has me seeing a scenario where the 2% who own the wealth simply cut the rope ... to the 90% of "unproductive" human beings. What's the use or value of having a population of surplus labor? What's the use of having millions of people who only know how to watch TV in their leisure?

(And it would be dangerous and potentially destructively to them to JUST cut the rope and cut 270,000,000 Americans loose to flounder and starve. If you were them, would you? If you were intending to democratize capital, would Sept 11 have been necessary? The PATRIOT Act? Military Commissions Act of 2006?

H.R. 5122 [109th]: John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007?
... ...not with a violent coup, but with the quiet passage of a bill that, among other things, authorizes the President to declare martial law whenever he deems it necessary to "suppress public disorder." This effectively repeals the Posse Comitatus Act, which prohibited the U.S. military from being used in law... [Mar 23, 2007 9:26 AM]

To me, it sure LOOKS more like Martial Law coming down the pipeline than new freedom. Or maybe "New Freedom" like "Operation Iraqi Freedom".

However I remain OPEN to possibility, and to an awakening of the vast public. In other words, I'm not addicted to my cynicism.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:26 am    Post subject: Kelso Reply with quote

Kelso and Norm Kurland
http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=23834
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