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History: Fiction or Science?
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bornfree



Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 509

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We all have learned from history who invented the radio and who invented AC electricity right?

The Wright Brothers were the first human beings to fly an aeroplane, right?

Bill Gates invented DOS and Steve Jobs invented the mouse, right?

I even read a few years ago that Iraq attacked the US on 911 and had WMDs.

I'm sure there's always been a Fox News type network that's been writing some of our history. The names and dates may have been changed to protect the agenda.

The name of England's Royal Family is Windsor, right?
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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just read about how Rockefeller funded a group of historians to re-write the history of Europe prior to Vesailles.

www.Takeoverworld.info/Wall_Street_Banks_Amer_Foreign_Pol_by_M_Rothbard.htm
I am still having a hard time swallowing that the solution to Banks Controlling Everything is to privatize everything, but he makes a strong case for that, that the rise in corporate-banking oligarchy is directly tied to government, period. His statement somewhere in there is that SOME corporations benefit from government, while SOME corporations do free market and also sometimes do form monopolies when that is most beneficial to all, but that fractional-reserve BANKING is always unstable and on the edge of bankruptcy and MUST therefore use government control to survive.
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:41 pm    Post subject: ASSUME THE POSITION Reply with quote

I don't know if anyone has seen this show yet. I saw it last year.

It was the catalyst for me - when I first noticed the sand starting to shift, when first I began to allow myself to consider seriously for a moment the implications of "Everything? is bullshit??" Everything??

There was only one episode filmed and I thought it would be the FIRST & LAST because of the way he exposes the bullshit that we now know to be history.

I won't ruin it for anyone who has not seen it but the truths exposed are not earth shattering 'the world really IS FLAT' kind of thing. It is the implication of what is left unsaid about everything else that is ultimately the unique experience of 'the world really IS LYING' that can be painful (even in denial).

There has got to be multiple psyop angles here - just to simply maintain control -- of the message, the medium and the modality.

The control is the illusion of consciousness - all of our shared and individual conscious experiences, from the way each person that watches this show will have a unique perception of what he says - from the angry ignorant ignoramus to the complete dismissal and its forgotten right down to the eventual realignment of beliefs, in order to process, integrate and assimilate what it means to realize how many truths are really lies - very, very well disguised?
Quote:


Running Time: 28 minutes

In his first project for HBO since the long-running hit comedy series "Arli$$," Robert Wuhl offers his own freewheeling take on history, examining "the stories that made up America and the stories that America made up."

Filmed in front of a classroom of enthusiastic New York University students, the guest "professor" delivers an imaginative, irreverent comedic "lecture" that playfully examines some of the facts, myths, and myths-that-became-facts that have permeated American history.

Mixing current pop culture with historical events, history buff Wuhl explores the legitimacy of some quintessential American icons and exposes some little-known truths.

Wuhl takes his audience on a lighthearted journey to show how legends are created, exploring familiar chapters in America's past that owe more to popular culture than fact.





The man behind "Arlis$" was Mr. Stand Up long before he was double-talking Shaq and getting showered by tickertape in the Canyon of Heroes. Now he's ready to return to the mike and assume certain positions, and in the process he might just be the funniest social studies teacher you'll ever meet...

HBO: So give us a little background on your show - what is "Assume the Position with Mr. Wuhl" about, exactly?

Robert Wuhl: It's basically a monologue that's being done in a classroom, and it's about how pop culture becomes history. By pop culture, I mean whoever the most popular person is at that point in time. People say that life shouldn't be a popularity contest, but life is a popularity contest. And it doesn't make a difference if it's 2005 or 1805. Whoever the most popular person is at that time, they're going to have a lot of weight, whether they're being elected, whether they're being read, whether they're being sought out, whether we emulate them. And what they say and do is going to affect a bunch of other people because the media is printing it and people are listening to them. And that's just the way life is. It doesn't change.

Human behavior doesn't change over the years. People are still doing stuff for the same reasons they did it years ago, which is basically "My God's better than your God." Or "How much is in it for me and uh who's got the hots for you." That's basically where history comes from, those few things.

HBO: What was the genesis behind presenting this in a classroom setting and not a comedy venue?

Robert Wuhl: It was an experiment. [HBO President] Chris Albrecht and I got to talking about how when we were growing up, there was a show called Sunrise Semester. It was on at seven o'clock in the morning and it was a classroom. And we both liked it - we both liked to learn.

I think there's a great thirst for knowledge in society today. I think the younger generations really want to learn. I don't think they want to be bored. I think they want to learn by telling a story that incorporates, encompasses something that they can use practically. Something they can relate to. And I think you can learn and you can entertain at the same time. You try to make it as palatable to people today to make them understand it in their terms. It's like when you hear 10,000 people were killed at an event, you say, well that's a big number. But if you get to know one person and they're killed, that puts a face on it. Well, that's what I try to do with history. So we're gonna kill 10,000 people. [CHUCKLES]

No. I try to make it fun by telling stories and making people understand how pop culture throughout history becomes history.

HBO: So you're both performing and you're teaching. It's kind of like a hybrid?

Robert Wuhl: It's an interesting process because I don't know if I'm actually teaching or if I'm doing a monologue or a one man show, so I call it a docucomadality show. It's a documentary, it's a comedy, it's a reality show. But in a sense I really think that it can redefine the variety show.

I first started putting this together in a comedy club, and then tried it out on students in classrooms - realizing that those are two entirely different audiences. When it comes to a comedy club, first of all, people are drunk; second of all, it's an older audience. Now, when you do this in front of students, which is much more exciting to me, you have to be really honest with them. They're looking to you for the truth. They're looking to you for something interesting. You've got to keep their interest going and that's tough, so you better tell them interesting stories. And they have an amazing bullshit detector. So don't bullshit them.

Teachers are the most under-recognized, under-appreciated, underpaid people, and yet everybody will say the future of our children is education. But look who's on the low rung -- the teachers.

HBO: How did you get started delivering this to students?

Robert Wuhl: I started out by workshopping this at UCLA and USC, just gathering material and telling stories and trying to get students to give me their lunch hour -- so I'd hand out pizza to them. I'd get four of five students. Sometimes only one would show up. Then we decided to come to New York because I love the diversity there.

HBO: How did you find the reaction in a big lecture hall?

Robert Wuhl: Oh it was great, it was terrific. It takes a minute or two for them to get where you're going, because you're changing rhythms on them and you're doing something different. What is he talking about? Why are we here? And part of the charm was seeing the diversity of all these different people, and watching as they all start to get it at the same time. Suddenly they're all laughing at your jokes and they're with you, and they're grasping a concept that they never thought of before -- because it wasn't presented to them like this, so they didn't hear it before.

HBO: How do you go about presenting the material, and what sorts of concepts are behind it?

Robert Wuhl: I've always had a theory that history is basically storytelling, and the key to storytelling is who's telling the story.

That's why in the days of the Indians and the free plains, every time that the Calvary won a battle, the press said it was a 'great military victory.' But if the Indians won, it was a 'massacre.'

Who's telling the story? That's what it came down to. So I try and tell stories and raise these questions.

HBO: Can you think of anyone from history who got a bad lot, or did the good work but didn't get their due?

Robert Wuhl: Oh, there's a lot of them. That's a question I was always asking when I was doing the research for this show. I would ask historians, who deserves better? Arrow (Jerry? Who deserves better?)

Well I don't know if he deserves better, but Benedict Arnold is an interesting story. If you think of his life in terms of today's corporate world, he was basically passed over for promotion about four times. He gets shot in battle and gives up his leg, and then a guy gets promoted over him. And after about the fourth or fifth time, you'd start to say, who else is offering what? I've done all this work for you, I'm not getting the gig here and it doesn't look like you're going to win. So I'm going to go to the other side. Everybody thinks he was hung. He wasn't, he wound up living the life over in Great Britain, and his wife had a lot to do with that. So Benedict Arnold, although there's no way around the fact that he was a traitor, I understand him.

Now, on the other side, you go to England, and George Washington is considered a traitor. Here's an English guy, he's working for the English, and he does a 180. So again, who's telling the story?

Another great story is Marty Glickman, who was a really great radio and TV announcer. But a lot of people don't know that he was on the famous Olympic relay team that went to Berlin in 1936. They pulled him off of the relay team presumably because Jesse Owens had won the day before, and Hitler had been insulted by having a black man win. There was no way they wanted to have a Jew beat them now. That story is a fascinating story. And he went on to become as great a sports announcer as there ever was.


I don't know about anyone else but now - especially after this thread and Fomenko etc. - it ALL sounds like bullshit to me.

More importantly, why do we care? Because we were taught that learning - knowing - MEZMERIZING - memorizing - history was important. So that, we can safely conclude, was just another great way to evolve our minds and the functions it serves to serve us well.

In other words, also bullshit.

But none of this has matterered before, not on the level of consciousness that it appears to have captured.

Yet, it has been there, waiting to be discovered. Waiting for its 15 minutes. Waiting for the right time & place.

The right aspect and intention. The right wave to jump in on and then it becomes part of our consciousness.

Quote:

Think you know history? (Jerry? May we please see your answers first?)
Test your knowledge with these ten (10) T / F questions:

1. Benedict Arnold was hanged as a traitor.
2. The hymn "Amazing Grace" was written by a former slave trader.
3. The Great Chicago Fire of 1871 was the deadliest fire in U.S. history.
4. The Pony Express went bankrupt after little more than a year of business in 1861.
5. George Washington was the first president of the United States.
6. The earliest globe model was completed in 1492.
7. The Bard, William Shakespeare, was never published during his life.
8. The first Uncle Sam was a meat packer from Troy, New York.
9. Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone in 1876.
10. Leo Tolstoy said "History is a wonderful thing if only it was true."
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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have a series of concentric orbits to the 'greats' of civilization and person, works for corporate images too
  • the factual, what really happened from a fly-on-the-wall. By gum, they're hard to come by: flies cannot talk, and when they spell things out in the air trying to get peoples' attention, no one bothers to read it. (I do, but am bound by a Nondisclosure Agreement)
  • the actual, as above with a reasonably authentic amount of personal narrative, such as one finds in tell-all autobiography ("This is what happened, here's why I did it."). G. Gordon Liddy's book "Will", Cheney's up-and-coming, etc.
  • the lyrical, how others in the same time perceive, through at-hand knowledge of facts. The stuff "everybody knows" whether they write it down or not. LBJ knew something he wasn't telling, Richard Wagner as opera-writing eccentric kook.
  • the empirical, all the above, as gathered after the fact by honest historians and determined hobbyists, most often family or others with a vested interest and not so much axe to grind.
  • by imperial decree by PR department, Committee, Church, Cloth and King. This is where the most blatant distortions will occur, outright spin; whole branches of common knowledge are pruned. Everything you ever wanted to know about the Church of Scientology, written by the Church of Scientology. The Bible and Bhagavad Gita as It Is, not necessarily the possibly-conflicting originals. The fate of Lot's wife whats-her-name.
  • through distant eyes, as re-cast as often by honest mistake as by spin. George Washington's cannot-tell-a-lie chop down the cherry tree fable was most likely told in his own time with a knowing smile, the kind of thing people would expect 'them' to say, and as to respectful attention to an honest preacher in the pulpit, placed in broader (available) context, things said metaphorically 'to make a point' when you know where they're coming from. But distant eyes may not see the context, and in the history textbook I read in school, Mr. One U.S. Dollar chopped down that cherry tree when he was a boy, straight flat-fact. Not even with a hint to the wise such as "according to a tale circulating around the time of his election..."
  • grist for the bust-mill, where scholars spin someone into a Gallery of Heroes, everything controversial brushed over to concentrate on accomplishments in a discipline or field. The scientific legacy of Tycho Brahe, never mind the nose thing. Great Composers are busted -- Beethoven's stern facial features glaring over the piano at Schroeder's mistakes, though as a person so long ago there might have been some good-natured laughter. Until Victor Borge appeared on the Muppet Show, Beethoven's bust never even spoke. Not since either, I imagine. The statuettes of Grecian sirens, as cooly distant in facial expression as they are limbless today.
The dramatic razor: at any given moment there are more motives in the human condition for glossing and fibbing and dramatising then there are for strict adherence to fact, even when one's language, vocabulary and freedom of expression would allow it. This is because people love to be astonished and interested, and it is a rare writer who could ever hope to keep sentiment out of writing.

For the truth about Richard Wagner and side-splitting laughter besides, try to find My Favorite Intermissions by Victor Borge and Robert Sherman [1971]. So many of my favorite books are out of print, makes me wonder if I'm next...

It's actually a wonder that we know anything for sure at all, considering the temptation to fib. No one should feel faulted or uncomfortable for 'swallowing' something we later learn is the result of an elaborate re-casting. In salient facts of crimes against humanity perpetrated on 'our watch', such unravelings feel shocking, disturbing and alarming. That is healthy because it is s sign we care, and are applying the necessary implications of risk forward to improve our chances for survival.

But back beyond any given historical mile-posts on 'our watch', say 9/11-coup, the founding of banks or the last three generations of Bushes (and we must keep non-celeb family out of it, leave Chelsea and the Twins alone)... history is For Entertainment and Instructional Purposes Only.

It should not shock us so much that sacred screed and historical textbook our children encounter contain, or are distortions and lies. It should only shock us if our children are not sufficiently attuned and empathetic enough to come to us to help put it in proper context. The lack of parent-child empathy, and it's consequence leads to such as the Hitler-Jugend or 'Hitler Youth', a few cases of ratting on parents, a propaganda victory over illaudable parents who shoulda learned 'em better (play it that way we must, the blame game here is bad news).

Or the exploitive state-sanctioned re-write of ancient traditions. For example, Hitler-haters love to paint a somewhat loony 'Brave New World picture' of young girls as baby-factories for the state. An enduring and captivating story because it tickles certain adolescent fantasies that have been known to persist well into adulthood, even beyond. It is sometimes used as a lead-in to 'men in uniform' jokes.

The sentiment of the Reich to re-populate surely existed, so many boys and men had died and were to die, a national priority. In the sex mix, state-sanctioned genocide of person, family and what we know of as personal choice: once it became unlawful for 'non-Jews to have sex with Jews', we know where it is heading -- but how many recognized it at the time? A transparently brutal and opportunist exploitation of old morality plays. As to state-sanctioned tupping, the definition of a family started at around four children, sentiment against the childless-and child-few escalating, by decree; in 1938, the unmarried or childless requested to leave public office (encountered factoid, not yet researched).

Maintaining creative fictions about peoples' motives in history in aggregation is essentially impolite. Sometimes necessary, but one reason I find the Nazi era so fascinating is that we have some real good balanced intel about it.

To any who'd pipe up that Milwaukee Wisconsin was a 'hotbed of Nazi sympathizers' I say sure, it takes only one hot-head to make a hot-bed. But where are we going with this? How many hot-heads are we talking about here...? An excellent opening to point out that so many of the fine war machines that decimated Hitler's rolled out from the Allis Chalmers Factory, a place where (even then) English was a second language to German on the shop floor.

So much for spotting terrorists and devils using accent, beard, turban and soundex match on a no-fly list. Even when there is an excuse for overreaction, there is never a good one for organized full-spectrum harassment. Not in my back yard. Or bund.

From accounts of those who should know, the day to day activities of Hitler's Girls were quite athletic (some remember 'boring') but no less platonic than say, the President's Council on Physical Fitness Program today. The National Sozialistisvche Frauenschaft, a separate organization that provided some wife-prep sentiment was on the surface, no less 'chauvinistic' than the US' Girl Scout Handbooks of the era, and we must not forget that sexist indoctrination is usually mixed in equal measure of catering to actual interest, a take-no-prisoners acknowledgement. Accusations of intent, while not unfounded, can yet be overblown. In a strictly impolite way, since such comic-book interpretations tend to gloss over a great many details that would indicate that true reality was a great deal more interesting and exciting.

This authentic-sounding item provides an interesting corollary to the earthy baby-factory portrayal; for plays that short-circuit traditional morality might not just backfire, they might be recipies for disaster:

On 13th July, 1943, the Nazi Governor of Bavaria, Paul Gisler, who was known as a brutal Nazi, called all the students in Munich to a special rally. In his speech he said that all the male students who could not serve in the army would work in factories. The female students should make their contribution by giving birth for Hitler every year! Gisler went on that the women who were not attractive enough to find a boyfriend could have sex with his body gourds [sic, sick, slapstick], and he promised them "a great time".

The Bavarians are known in their rude sense of humor, but this was too much. All the female students left the hall in protest, and when Gisler ordered his guards to arrest them, the male students rebelled. The nazi student leader was taken as a hostage, and Gisler was thrown out of the room.


I highlight the phrase that "the Bavarians are known in their rude sense of humor" because it is absolutely true. But what we are really witness to here was a situation that at another time in history might have been met with general uproarious laughter in the room, laughter being tonic for those in the company of posturing bullies who cannot affect us.

But so much is implied, and valuable for study, in phrases like "but this was too much." For the Author spells it out cleanly and concisely, so any who might think that obscenity is being touched on here consider a correction. This is about a major watch violation: the sudden shocking realization that something is afoot, even present, that constitutes a grave and immediate threat. A call to action.

What kind of action compelled these young people? Nubile enough to know and recognize the nature of the power play, and intelligent enough to see its implications to events, though they be uncomfortable.

This wasn't enough for the angry students. They ran through the streets of Munich and, for the first and last time in the third Reich, held street demonstrations. The White Rose and other students freely gave out leaflets in the streets calling on German youth to overthrow the regime.

Students wrote "Hitler out!" and "Freedom!" on walls, and swastikas were covered in black spray.

For the first time an open rebellion had broken out against the Nazi regime. White Rose members thought the time was right to press home their revolt. A last leaflet, written by Kurt Huber, was distributed: ‘ “Freedom and honor!” For ten years Hitler and his accomplices have abused, distorted, debased these noble German words... and cast the most precious values of the nation to the swine. During this ten years’ destruction of all material and spiritual values they showed what freedom and honor mean to them. This horrible blood bath which they have caused throughout Europe has opened the eyes of even the most naive and simpleminded German... The name of Germany will be dishonored forever, unless German youth finally rises to smash their tormentors and invoke a new, intellectual and spiritual Europe…. Stalingrad's dead implore us! rise up, my people, the fiery beacons beckon!"


Now Hitler was much more polished than this silly buffoon... he would have not dropped the 'body gourds' shocker. Even the "giving birth for Hitler" is merely impolite and weirdly funny for Hitler to say in a factory-gingerbread men sort of way. Eccentric but not offensive.

If Hitler himself had been addressing the students -- I feel the reaction (among a restrained audience who nevertheless hate the man) would have been contained just some nervous laughter (surprise).

And in the manner of our species' fine and noble intelligence and instinct, into the night one might have heard many a breathless excited female voice shout "Seig Heil!"; for the young are energetic and always at play.

Instead, a devastating, unscripted Intifada of open dissent begins.

Smart kids, those. Some good parents in there too. Too bad it ended badly. Our watch.

Hands-on hands-off parenting, like Scouting, works. It allows empowerment. Merit badges give a feeling of vestment. If done properly, it will teach children how to start fires in the wilderness without the tools of technology, even if all their own parents have to contribute is some dangerously incomplete sentiment like "Never play with matches." In my house the rule is, if you want to play with fire do it while I'm around; if we have wooden floors or drapes or you want to fool with gasoline too, we'll all move onto the porch. If you want to play with electricity, bring me a wooden broom handle first.

Of course they will ask "Why do you need a broom handle?" and you tell them. Now we're getting somewhere, instead of just being stampeded away from stove and wall-socket in fright, like idiotic sheep. Because too many electrons, like anything else, can be a bad thing.

When children hit school age, send them out into the world equipped with a mental wooden broomstick so they can fend off shocking parts of history without getting hurt, even use it to separate their slightly more foolish friends from harm's way. And a supply of well-insulated baggies to drop uncomfortable or confusing data into, which they can carry home and lay out for inspection and discussion.

That is what we should teach our children, nip this True or False? paradigm right in the bud. We will not always be around to tell them the answer and anyway they have no business going through their lives trusting ours or anyone else's, without giving it some thought.

The parallax view to pure jest is, if it is on 'our watch' and is henious and pursuit of truth and justice is vital to survival, leave no stone uncovered, because in time the ebb tide will naturally carry those stones, and what was hidden beneath them, away.

Everything else is fable, pick-and-choose -- like the ancient Code of Hammurabi that found its way onto Moses' stone tablets as Commandments. Mel brooks: "I give you these Fifteen..." CRASH! "Ten! Ten Commandments!". Just 'clean', 'just' rules for civilized living, with a few loony 'Ha ha made you think!' howlers thrown in.

On our way home from Church, the fiery sermon still ringing in our ears, we notice for the first time those lovely, sturdy legs of the neighbour’s wife. Time to borrow some sugar. ;-)

___
The more you read, the more things you will know.
The more you learn; the more places you'll go!

~Dr. Seuss
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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hocus wrote:
The dramatic razor: at any given moment there are more motives in the human condition for glossing and fibbing and dramatising then there are for strict adherence to fact, even when one's language, vocabulary and freedom of expression would allow it. This is because people love to be astonished and interested, and it is a rare writer who could ever hope to keep sentiment out of writing.


At least sentiment reveals bias, whereas the assumed 'non-predudicial' nature of academic writing conditions the student to accept cultural agenda as finding, or fact.

I guess there are two types of literature; Fiction and Less-Fiction.

The legal use of the word 'Fiction', however, is genuinely unreal!

Drew wrote:
There has got to be multiple psyop angles here - just to simply maintain control -- of the message, the medium and the modality.


Yeah. Interesting. Hijack the meme, replace the beef with a lizard substitute.

Let's see if this joker takes on Plato... Wink

Dilbert wrote:
I am still having a hard time swallowing that the solution to Banks Controlling Everything is to privatize everything, but he makes a strong case for that, that the rise in corporate-banking oligarchy is directly tied to government, period. His statement somewhere in there is that SOME corporations benefit from government, while SOME corporations do free market and also sometimes do form monopolies when that is most beneficial to all, but that fractional-reserve BANKING is always unstable and on the edge of bankruptcy and MUST therefore use government control to survive.


The free market economy and the STATE needed each other throughout the 16th - 20th centuries.

That is no longer the case. The commercial mercantile power has emerged as the globally dominant force, and the institution of STATE functions administratively, in a state of permanent bankruptcy.

You can say the STATE is already privately owned, or you can say the STATE is PUBLIC but is being held as collateral on a huge privately owned debt. Commercially, they're the same thing.

Ok, back in the History department, there's been another smack down - poor red faced Plato was seen running off weeping into his robes...



More graphic details...

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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timelines - might be helpful - or not:

For 1000 BC to 500 BC:

For 500 BC to 0 AD:

For 0 AD to 500 AD:

For 500 AD to 1000 AD:

For 1000 AD to 1400 AD:

For 1400 AD to 2000 AD:

For Expanded 1920 AD to 2000 AD:


Map of the Roman Empire:

Map of the Ottoman Empire:

Map of the Papal Domination 12th/13th Century:
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rustyh



Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 457
Location: A Wonderful World

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrewTerry.
you have done it again champ.
Brilliant.
Learnt more in that post than 5 years of high school!
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DeepLogos



Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Geostationary orbit around myself, sipping at a cup of DM Tea...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everybody!

I have been away for a while now, and haven't kept up to date on the details of this discussion, but I am aware of Fomenko's work...

One question: Has anyone read Dr. Florin Diacu's book 'The Lost Millenium -. History's Timetables under Siege'? His work is within mathematics and celestial mechanics....

http://www.math.uvic.ca/faculty/diacu/



He references Fomenko's work, and also mentions Isaac Newton's last book 'The Chronology of the Ancient Kingdoms' (or something like it), which toutches on the same things... (?)

I haven't read any of the books, but Fomenko's book probably will be the next I order...Wink (I'll have to finish Drunvaldo Melchiezedec's Flower of life books first... now there's a lot of interesting stuff mix up with a lot of channeled assumptions... Drop the voice of Thoth and stick to the facts, Drunvaldo...Wink)

Sorry in advance if this has been talked about before...Wink

A radio interview with Dr Florin here: http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2006/12dec/RICR-061210-fdiacu.mp3

A Happy New Year to you all from Norway!

BTW, great interview with Justin Lawless regarding Buckminister Fuller's work, Fintan... Ties into what I'm reading now, only there is a lot of weeding to do in Druno's work...Wink

-DL-

_________________
"I'm pulling the plug on you now, Jmmanuel... I hope your resurrection ship is nearby..."

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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeepLogos wrote:
One question: Has anyone read Dr. Florin Diacu's book 'The Lost Millenium -. History's Timetables under Siege'? His work is within mathematics and celestial mechanics....


Arrow No - but I do have one to recommend you read.

Quote:
Idea To anyone reading this I will make the following deal:



Solving the Greatest Mystery of Our Time: The Mayan Calendar

• $17.49 Brand New (New sold out now 4-6 weeks: Conspiracy? Nawwww!)

$14.80 & up (used)

9 USED - in stock right now - at $14.80

Round up and call it $20 for this proposal:

1. Buy, read and discuss this book in the forums here or wherever else you want to talk about it.

2. If you have not done so, check the post Evolution of Consciousness which is based on this book and the authors web site material.

3. If you don't like it, FOR ANY REASON, I will buy it for $20 - guaranteed.

4. I have a business and credit card machine - I will even buy it prepaid and trust you to send it (which should not be an issue since you have decided not to keep it).

5. This offer is good until the end of 2007 - so you may send it to me for $20 any time until the end of the year.

6. Check out this essay by the author which discusses the time period in which we are right now, and see how it resonates with what we see happening.

7. It may not be perfect, but it is by far the most accurate and most intuitive system to explain all of history, including the revisions and missing history, all religions, conflicts, migrqrations, rise and fall of empires, everything is encompassed and nothing is excluded.


8. Judge for yourself.

My email address is on my profile, this is my real name and I am easily located by anyone - I have nothing to hide, and nothing on any agenda except Expanding our Understanding of the Ongoing Evolution of Consciousness.


We are all in this together - its not as though I can evolve and leave Earth behind. And as much as I can tell, we are right now on schedule, and things are going to get even more hectic and more confusing - unless the math behind the cycles we are in is known and understood.

Then it resonates and we flow with it, not because of knowing what will happen, but knowing what energy to expect and therefore when to duck, when to look and when its safe to cross the road (so to speak). All of which will become more important, and after another year, thru the end of 2008, will then start to ease in the pace of things. But a lot of evolution is to occur within the time span of now and the end of 2008. And I am not here to convince you, because I cannot do that, only you will know if you resonate with the energy or not. If yes, great and if not, great. It will all work out the way it should, I am convinced of that - and how could it not? We are not in control, and everything has a purpose, however it might seem to not make sense - it always does in hindsight. Our job is pay attention to what we do and follow our intuition to do what we are supposed to do for each one of our selves.

The rest is a front row seat to the title fight of the millenium.
Very Happy I plan to embrace and enjoy it!
Cool


Quote:
only there is a lot of weeding to do in Druno's work...Wink
-DL-


He is difficult for me to read right now because I don't see its relevance to our near future. But later on, it will be easier to digest when there are not other aspects of our reality which are perhaps better justified to pay our attention?
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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:04 pm    Post subject: The Lost Millenium Reply with quote

Deep Logos wrote:
I have been away for a while now, and haven't kept up to date on the details of this discussion, but I am aware of Fomenko's work...

One question: Has anyone read Dr. Florin Diacu's book 'The Lost Millenium -. History's Timetables under Siege'? His work is within mathematics and celestial mechanics....


Logos! Hooray! Nice to see your post - you've been missed.

I'm listening to the Diacu interview right now - good stuff. His celestial mechanics work really backs up Fomenko's assertions, as stellar alignments are singular events chronologically. Before the social development of the 'calendar' all events were 'described' by the horoscope, or celestial 'snapshot' of the sky during the events described.

He also backs up the fact that the consensual historical chronology as presented by Scalinger is pretty fishy.

His book looks pretty good too...

Quote:

About this Book

Have you ever wondered how we really know what year it is? Part detective story, part conspiracy theory, part scientific history, The Lost Millennium explores the astonishing possibility that our calendar is out by a thousand years.

A chance conversation at a conference in Mexico started mathematician Florin Diacu on an amazing journey to make sense of one of the strangest — and if true, most revolutionary — theories you’ll ever encounter. To understand how scientists could be sceptical about what year it is, Florin Diacu explores the fascinating history of chronology — from Egyptian horoscopes to the work of Isaac Newton, with cameos by Voltaire and Edmund Halley — making the startling discovery that our calendar is far from ironclad. It all depends, rather, on the dating of ancient events — about which there is real controversy.

At once accessible and profound, The Lost Millennium examines the arguments of present-day chronological revisionists such as the Russian scholar Anatoli Fomenko, who claims that our system of dating is horribly askew. Fomenko cites evidence from ancient astronomy, linguistics and cartography, and a crucial manuscript by Ptolemy, staking his scientific prestige on a theory so controversial that it will change the way you think about time, history and the calendar on your wall.

The field has also inspired its share of now-discredited cranks, such as Immanuel Velikovsky, a media celebrity of the 1950s. His notorious book Worlds in Collision argued that biblical events are incorrectly dated.

Beautifully written and peopled with fascinating characters from past and present, The Lost Millennium is essential reading for anyone who believes they’re living in the year 2005.

From: RandomHouse.ca | Books | The Lost Millennium by Florin Diacu
http://www.randomhouse.ca/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780676976588


His findings are similar to Fomenko, and although he disagrees with a few specifics regarding his reconstruction, he does agree that dating technologies have been traditionally sketchy, and that a scientific look at the Scalingerian chronology will reveal serious inconsistencies on the order of about a thousand years.

I'm sure rebuilding a more accurate chronology of human history will be a hotly debated topic for years to come, and I am only beginning to grasp Fomenko's hypothesis of various versions of the same events 'reflected' further and further back in history.

Fomenko presents the 'thumbnail sketch' of the consensual chronology thusly:

Quote:
... What we learn is tha the "modern textbook" of ancient and mediaeval history is a collation of four identical chronicles shifted backwards in time by the following values as related to their original:

the Byzantine-Roman shift of 333 or 360 years,
the Roman shift of 1053 years,
the Graeco-Biblical shift of 1780 (or 1800, or 1810 years)


Fomenko presents a lot of compelling statistical evidence that portrays the similarities of these historical epochs as either duplicates, or rather unimaginable 'coincidences'.

Quote:
What is Wrong With the Traditional Chronology

It is difficult to imagine that two different dynasties could have identical or almost identical dynasty functions. The probability of such a coincidence is extremely small already for dynasties composed of 10 rulers. Nevertheless, the number of such coincidences, for even longer dynasties of 15 rulers, turns out to be unexpectedly large. N.A. Morozov, who noticed the coincidence between the ancient Rome and the ancient Jewish state, discovered the first examples of surprisingly identical pairs of dynasty graphs. A formal method to study such similarities was introduced by A.T. Fomenko (see the reference list in [2]).

There is another surprise, besides coincidence of the dynasty functions, the other numerical functions confirm with very high probability that these dynasties are indeed the same. It brings us to a suspicion that in fact we are dealing with repetitions in the conventional version of the history. Fomenko discovered dozens of strong coincidences, sometimes between three and more dynasties. But, there are no more such coincidences in the history of the better-documented epochs, for example starting from the 16th century.

As an example, we would like to discuss two dynasties, one the dynasty of the Holy Roman-German Empire (10th - 13th AD) and another one of the Jewish kings according the Bible (9th - 5th BC). On Figure 3, we represent the vertical time line with two graphs of reign durations on its opposite sides for comparison. On this chart, we start the dates for the dynasty of Jewish kings in the year zero, which is not a date according to some era but simply indicates the starting "zero" point for this dynasty. According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, the beginning of this dynasty is around 922 B.C. Figure 3 was taken from A.T. Fomenko monograph [2].

From: Ancient history : Fraud of chronology : Ancient Egypt ,Ancient Greece
http://www.revisedhistory.org/investigation-historical-dating.htm#


Plus, when laid out graphically, they make for some pretty kewl visuals...

What I find particularly fascinating, is that these phantom 'reflections' of ancient history have weird mediaeval parallels.

Take the biblical 'Babylonian Captivity' meme, for example. I was surprised to learn this about the Papacy's temporary move to Avignon.

Quote:
Criticism
The period has been called the "Babylonian captivity" of the popes, a term coined by Petrarch[1], an Italian who lamented the absence of the papacy from his native land. This nickname is polemical, in that it refers to the claim by critics that the prosperity of the church at this time was accompanied by a profound compromise of the Papacy's spiritual integrity, especially in the alleged subordination of the powers of the Church to the ambitions of the French kings. Coincidentally, the "captivity" of the popes at Avignon lasted around the same duration as the exile of the Jews in Babylon, making the analogy all the more convenient and rhetorically potent. For this reason, the Avignon papacy has been and is often today depicted as being totally dependent on the French kings, and sometimes as even being treacherous to its spiritual role and its heritage in Rome.

From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avignon_Papacy


Then, interestingly enough, I ran across the extremely little known history of a Danish group that were apparently a racially persecuted tribe that was 'cleansed' from the area by the west Saxons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jutes

I wonder what ever happened to these folks kicked out of 'Jutland'?

Anyway, this article, Investigation of the Correctness of the Historical Dating, presents a pretty good overview of Fomenko's ideas.

Drew wrote:
Timelines - might be helpful - or not:


Nice! Good to have those Hyper history timelines for reference. Interestingly, it was that Hyper History site that kind of got me wondering what the hell.

I used to sit there, staring at those timelines, scratching my head, searching through a copy of the Reader's Digest History of Man, looking at HyperHistory some more, then finally just saying WTF?

I'll have to get back to you on your generous money back offer on the Mayan book, as I'm currently sill in mediaeval overload. Wink

Cheers!
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truthseeker



Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 177
Location: NW U.S.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="DrewTerry"]
Solving the Greatest Mystery of Our Time: The Mayan Calendar


The rest is a front row seat to the title fight of the millenium.
Very Happy I plan to embrace and enjoy it!
Cool

Awesome post, Drew. Your efforts have great effect.

Have you spent any time on Joseph Giove's site? AffinityInfinity, I believe. Worthy of your attention, sir.
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DeepLogos



Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Geostationary orbit around myself, sipping at a cup of DM Tea...

PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jerry!

Sorry for my late reply, I am trying to assemble the fragments of my spare time into one unit suitable for posting something interesting. Wink An information digestive disorder of this autum has also been healed... Some time to reflect on things was made possible during the Christo/stellar/pagan rituals of late, and I thus begin the new year with clean sheets, rested eyes, a new apartment... and an empty bottle of Laphroig. Wink

And thanks for a very informative post! Also thank to Drew for the book offer and a great post. I might take you up on the book offer soon...Smile I belive I have had that book recommended by others if my memory serves me correctly.

Glad you like the radio interview, Jerry, I found it quite interesting myself. Especially the sober approach Diacu took to the subject matter where the conclusion seem to be that we really don't know what the facts are regarding historical chronology as it pertains to consensus opinion. This is in my opinion the best stand to take in our attenpt to try to reconstruct, or rather re(move)veil, the true chronology and history behind the human adventure.

As it stand now, with regards to history before the very convenient Drak Ages, we might be better served to go back into our mythological past and try to draw some truthful blood from that body of oral and ciphered knowledge. Falsifying history seems to be the norm, as can clearly be seen in the events that will make up our future's history, namely what is taking place today. If the majority of people today belive lies about event of recent and fairly recent history, is there any hope of presenting the, lets say "homo aquarius", with a more accurate account of events?

We have of course alternative historians today, as has most likely always been the case, but in this mesh of accepted factual accounts, alternative views that has been proven correct, fictitious metahistory and uniform tailored history, it would seem that creating or restoring a new consensus probably would be the wrong path to take. History should be the most adaptable of all the "sciences", simply because we discover new things about our past all the time. But as with other fields of study, there are vested interests in particular clusters of thought and agreed upon opinions, and this becomes the uni-form history we learn at uni-versity. By means of conformity or "death" we still fear that the sun wouldn't come up tomorrow if we travel down roads forbidden.

At the heart of this is of course a desire to control the outcome of things, taken to an extreme, an extreme that is now so deeply entrenched in the lies it expounded, it requires nothing short of a revolution to shake off the historical accounts that are not rooted in reality, and then slowly and carelully implement a 'living' history where absolutely everything is examined under the light of true reason. This is why we don't learn form history; because history is to a large extent either selectively presented, misunderstood, a downright lie, and always written be those that proclaim to be the winners. Knowing this is the first step in incorporating what will hopefully become the lessons of history into our present society and our individual minds.

F.ex,
1) To me it is fairly clear that something happend after the planned purge of knowledge during the Dark Ages. The King James bible was translated into (new) english containing a vast number of new constructed words, and these and other words were quickly absorbed into the language of politics, law and eduacation, and most likely popularized via "Baconian" theater and other venues.

2) Writing an entire new chronology of exoteric human history would be fairly easy with the promise of power or rule by divine law to those with the knowledge of esoteric truths at their disposal.

3) Mistranslating other early texts, fabricating new ones, building popular myths, putting together a set of fairly impressive sciences, establishing a curriculum for educational institutions based on those sciences, etc, whilst still letting a selected few go about with their study of "forbidden" knowledge. Sounds familiar?

4) And then there is the very language itself. Perusing the Oxford dictionary with some understanding of word-smithing and etymology one quickly discovers that the language is an initiatory language, even a "magical" language. Or as it turned out to be, a universal language containing many fragments from around the world.

5) The Bible is also clearly an initiatory text of a very different kind than what most people think, where much of the core principles are again based on fragments from around the world; druidic teachings, Egyptian/ Kemetian principles ("Gods"), Stoic teachings, Indian deities, other stellar observations, etc, where the original material was either destroyed, hidden or undermined. Also, when new land was discovered, most likely based on old accounts, the texts, tablets, stelas from these civilizations were also thoroughly destroyed. I find more historical truth in The Lord of The Rings than the Bible, but then again, historical truth was not the objective when they put together the "magical" and astrotheological 'book of books', later translated into a "magical" language. No wonder it is so powerful to some people. Too bad the magic turned out to be sorcery...Wink

6) On the other hand; have we interpreted ancient history correctly? Can we trust Manetho, Josepheus or Herodotus? Was the pyramids built according to Fomenkos view, according to consensus view or according to the stellar alignments with Orions belt for the three Giza pyramids (at least parts of them) about 10.500 BCA? At the same time the Sfinx was staring directly over the Nile towards the consallation Leo? The same Nile (or Nir) where the sun (Son) of God would rise (Horus rising) from the "dead" and walk accross it towards the house of the father/heaven? Is anything of this correct at all?

Generally when it comes to dating, excluding radio carbon dating to a certain extent, I tend to go with the physical evidence when it is present, especially objects with stellar placements or other points of reference, and water erosion/geological weathering when that is eveident.

It is my opinion, after studying much of the history of North Western Europe, that someting is not right as it pertains to what we have been taught in school and university. I am currently trying to reestablish a "new" history here based on many different sources, partly as a backbone to a fictional (!) project of mine called 'Project AyrQulEs (Hercules)' (working title) But I will get back to that in a later post. [still studying]

Interesting piece on the Jutes. I wonder if they were the kinsmen of the returning nomadic Heruli?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli
Interesting article, as I am from Norway (part of Thule/Belerian Wink) with ancestors in Denmark and perhaps Scotland (still researching), perhaps excluding the part with ritual homosexuality... Wink
As for even earlier times, the the word 'pharao' just has to have someting to do with the 'Faeroe' Islands (Pharao Islands?) west of Norway, since the first pharao of the first dynasty, Menes (ManÆs?) seems to be burried in Ireland? But again, I will post my "revelatory" madness in a later post...Wink There are lots of "crazy" connections over here, that the mainstream researchers of course scoffs at... Mad "Silly Norwegian..." Laughing

Well, well.. good to be back and good to be posting again, even if I may be talking some jibberish and sometimes preaching to the choir...

Say, have we solved that 9/11 ting yet? Wink

-DL-

_________________
"I'm pulling the plug on you now, Jmmanuel... I hope your resurrection ship is nearby..."

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atm



Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 3722

PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

History, etymologically, is neither science nor fiction.

It is a/an humanities field of learning/studying.

History should be factual so all this verbiage is redundant by definition.

Whoops, there I go again, upsetting the applecart, however, I DID study Modern History at Saint Andrews.

But I kind of get your pint.

Another please, barman Exclamation

atm Laughing
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puffdaddy



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 506
Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:40 pm    Post subject: History: Fiction or Science? Reply with quote

Havent been here in awhile. My teenage son was hospitalized over Christmas because of a psychotic episode of some sort and I sorta forgot about all the NWO stuff for awhile.....anyway.....what is the scoop on Alan Watt? Anybody here ever heard of him or listen to his podcasts? He isn't on Fintan's blacklist is he? Thanks in advance.
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Nat



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 840
Location: minime-rica

PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: History: Fiction or Science? Reply with quote

puffdaddy wrote:
Havent been here in awhile.
My teenage son was hospitalized over Christmas because of a psychotic episode of some sort and
I sorta forgot about all the NWO stuff for awhile.....anyway.....what is the scoop on Alan Watt?
Anybody here ever heard of him or listen to his podcasts? He isn't on Fintan's blacklist is he? Thanks in advance.

hey Puffdady, everyone who reads this will be thinking of you and your
son, i hope it works out


Last edited by Nat on Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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