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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being 42 that magic Douglas Adams number.

I heard from one of those proverbial reliable sources that the Star Wars space-based weapons platform initiative as introduced by Reagan (therefore timely today: players) was an elaborate psyop -- with twin goals of faking the Soviets into further tanking their economy to hasten collapse of empire ... and of course provide provide a new 'blank checkbook' in which the DOD could expand, and channel monies to other three-letter entities with impunity, to fake us along and help to collapse ours as well. In order to accomplish this, they had to build quite a front, and my source is one who worked 'in defense', actually the Ministry of Truth to whom was whispered not-quite but must-be secrets about progress in the field, which arrives as lateral industry buzz; which of course appears in the mainstream as quotes from reliable sources -- delivered with the honest veracity of those who 'know' and 'know they know' -- far more effective than some of the hot off the press stuff we've seen emerge since 9/11. This was slick; it took years to figure that it was the delivery buzz, and not the slower moving research, that provided the paycheck.

None of this was truly novel -- as a teen I would listen, with an ear tied behind my back, to the shortwave English service of Radio Moscow as they went on about how the USSR was soon to become the grain basket of the world. They didn't often admit they were actually refering to the Ukraine, at times it seemed as if the tundra itself was sprouting. Right. But also thoughtful commentary by Vladimir Posner and several others -- I would conside the source ever-of-course but these folks were doing real analysis on political and economic systems during a time when the BBC and Voice of America was padded with 'minutae' -- from the BBC, who's doing what to whom where in the world, today; from VOA, what's it's like to live in small-town America. Invaluable was the raw shortwave feeds of Armed Forces Radio (AFRTS), a real network-level compositie of commercial and unclassified DOD-internal programs provided so military bases worldwise could pick and choose, pad local programming. An invaluable spin analysis tool, as one might hear the same headline story delivered by 3-4 commercial entities in the course of an hour.

((( Vladimir Posner [Radio Moscow] is retired now on the lecture circuit; he has always had a foot in each world. Despite that your average Soviet citizen has never been able to figure out why the US does what it does (and who ever did?) things aren't quite as culturally divergent as the 'evil empire' politics leads one to believe; a fascinating interview with Mr. Posner begins here -- as for many out there he must keep it mostly historical but there is revealing insight there about the actual flow of Western influence and actual personnel between the 'worlds', real historical context which later became hush when Socialist and Communist systems became a taboo subject for the comic-book crowd. (What is it? Wrong, that's what it is!) During and despite the evil empire hoo-hah and all along there has been rational intercourse between East and West, and I don't mean Lee Harvey Oswald's leashed Soviet experiences... real history, real people moving here and there -- just doing 'stuff'. )))

I tell people I never watched much TV when I was young. People say, oh you listenened to the radio then, nodding. To which I reply "No, not that kind of radio..." and have to explain.

It seems in the US all the media was increasingly hatched in-house, built to order -- while at that time the rest of the media-challenged world was listening on shortwave to the actual voices of countries here and there. With grains of salt where they were needed. I place the period of escalation of mypoia and modern sheeple, to the day when cheap transistor radios no longer offered Shortwave Bands. On a positive note, such tactics did hasten the end of annoying rat-a-tat tat jamming initiatives that were prevalent those years... since it doesn't matter what anyone says if people are no longer listening.

With a people no longer listening to the buzz of the world, those few media source not surprisingly become Golden Apples. In the context of history -- rewritten, when the King James Bible USA Edition is some day written (the edict that old copies be recalled and destroyed an important phase of the operation)... the vignettes therein, might be written as recast from Fox and MSNBC transcripts. Jesus parting the Strategic Oil Reserve.

So it's always pick and choose. Samir Khader says by the time history books are written all that is left is 'Victory!' (and I love the hand gesture that accompanies it. Another plug for the move 'Control Room'). As one who has not budget to acquire History: Fiction or Science -- I am already impressed, it takes a lot to raise the eyebrows of this crowd. ;-) Surprises like the concept that the chronology of history is a construct, a work in progress and not an absolute -- say, some triumph of 'truth' over 'evil', This is a sweet idea in itself, filed up there with a lot of the things some never suspect but we've always sorta-known.

A hecklers' shout from the lazy seats: any paradigm shifts? Has the Earth moved, or merely shifted? I actually love this concept because it provides a sound reason for kids struggling with History in school, to forget the dates first, as they will anyway, and relax. Would have made my brief sojourn there a lot easier.

___
(1) Alexander the Great was a great general.
(2) Great generals are forewarned.
(3) Forewarned is forearmed.
(4) Four is an even number.
(5) Four is certainly an odd number of arms for a man to have.
(6) The only number that is both even and odd is infinity.

Therefore, Alexander the Great had an infinite number of arms.


~unknown, unix 'fortunes' database
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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject: Sedimentary layer datings Reply with quote

Hi Cliff.
Quote:
Fascinating subject!


Fun stuff, isn't it? I'm apparently powerless against it's appeal. Then again, I always kinda wanted to kick my high school history teacher in the balls anyway. This is probably as close as I'll ever get. Wink

Cliff wrote:
So carbon dating is fairly inaccurate to 3000 yrs. I was wondering about sedimentary layers, how paleontologists search for things within layers, eg like the Jurassic era. Now modern historians also search through layers, does that not also tell them something about how old things are? Like the many layers of Troy that were dug through before the "real" Troy was uncovered. Does the author cover (or uncover) this point? It may very well be that 1–2000 years of layers do not provide very accurate layering, but I would not imagine too many layers on (say) a 1400 city. Can anyone with archeological knowledge confirm or deny this before I go and burn my history books.


Better start collecting kindling... Wink

I'll quote a bit of Fomenko's discussion of sedimentary layer datings.

(FYI the 'Scaligerian chronology' refers to the consensual chronology taught in school. Iosephus Iustus Scaliger is known as "the founder of modern chronology as a science". Since he lived from 1540-1609, that's apparently when the 'science' of modern chronology was born as well. Check out the sample pages in the link above for more on Scaliger.)

As I understand it though, what sedimentary layer dating is actually measuring is the rate of erosion of the surrounding rock formations. 'Thicker' sediment means more erosion, and implies that the lower layers are 'older'.

This, however, assumes the speed of erosion to be some kind of constant, which it isn't. Erosion is dependent on weather, which has a tendency vary from place to place.

On p.73 Fomenko quotes a 1975 book by A. Oleynikov called The Geological Clock. On p. 34 Oleynikov writes about the problems inherent in sedimentary dating:

Quote:

The proponents of this method have been well aware of the difficulty of obtaining a referential scale for something like erosion speed... it differs for various climates: the same type of rock erodes at varying speeds in the tropics and beyond the Arctic Circle. Erosion speed also depends on the temperature, humidity, rainfall, and sunshine. This means that every biospheric zone requires the compilation of special scales and diagrams; besides, one cannot be certain that the weather conditions had remained unaltered since the exposure of the layer we're interested in.

[...]

The research in this direction had been conducted by the scientists of many countries; however, the results failed to meet the expectations. It became apparent that similar types of rock erode at different rates even under similar conditions, and establishing a regular pattern of these processes is hardly possible at all. For instance, ancient documents [a reference to the Scaligerian chronology yet again! - A.F.]tells us that the Egyptian Pharaoh Ramses II reigned about 3000 years ago. The buildings that were constructed in his lifetime are now covered by a three meter layer of sand. This means that about a meter of sand accumulated every millennium. At the same time, certain areas of Europe have a millenarian rate of three centimeters of sediment, whereas for the firths in the South of the Ukraine, this is an annual rate.


So, sedimentary dating puts Ramses II's birthday somewhere between 3 and 90,000 years ago. Fomenko explains,

Quote:
There were many attempts of deducing absolute age by the speed of sedimentary layer formations. They didn't lead anywhere, which is perfectly understandable.


Apparently there are some other isotope style dating systems called the 'radium-uranium' and 'radium-actinium' which also are used in terms of geological timelines, but, according to Oleynikov,
Quote:
They are convenient for the dating of geological formations when the required precision does not exceed 4000 -10,000 years.


Again Fomenko concludes on p. 74,
Quote:
However, this isn't precise enough for the ends of historical chronology, and cannot contribute to it in any substantial manner at all.


There appears to be no scientific method to determine the exact age of anything more precise than 1000 years.

Cliff wrote:
Like the many layers of Troy that were dug through before the "real" Troy was uncovered.


Fomenko's discussion of the 'discovery' of Troy, and the difficulties in accurate dating of the city of Troy is a good example of the various problems that repeatedly arise when trying to pin down any of the 'ancient' locales. Namely, various sources contradict and conflict each other regarding exactly where and when Troy was located. In addition to the apparent existence of numerous cities named 'Troy', there are yet more cities that, in various mediaeval dialects of various languages sound like the word 'Troy'. Homer's Troy was apparently one of many, and none of the sources corroborate each other.

A bit like trying to determine the exact age of 'Main Street'.

I took a few pics of the 'Troy & Babylon' section of Fomenko's book, cause he makes the point better than I, and it provides a good example of a recurring theme in his book.



So, even before counting the layers of sand, what do archeologists use to verify the identity of their 'find'? Usually 'ancient' documents, discovered in the Renaissance, and impossible to verify.

Mmmm. Nothing like marshmallows roasted over a history textbook fire...
Enjoy Wink
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cliff



Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm . . . that's what I suspected—thanks for the response—however, I've had second thoughts on burning them. I think I will preserve my books in a pickle jar, an oddity from another time .. .
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urbanspaceman



Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 325
Location: London , UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's one critic's opinion....

From http://jcolavito.tripod.com/lostcivilizations/id13.html

Quote:
"He [Fomenko] has to willfully manipulate the historical record in the very way he accuses the medieval English of doing. And to what end?

Well, that answer is quite simple. Fomenko is Russian, so it is not surprising that Fomenko "discovered" that Russia was the source of universal empire and that its culture gave rise to England."


Fomenko certainly does remind me of Creationists trying to bend over backwards to show that the earth is really 4000 years old. They DO sometimes expose the holes in scientific understanding in their critiques, but they end up filling those holes with bunk and pet bias. Not sure if this critic is right, but Fomenko certainly does seem to be in a rush to radically revise history. Is he simply motivated by the search for truth, or is there another psycological reason for this eccentric interpretation of world history?
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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Fomenko certainly does remind me of Creationists trying to bend over backwards to show that the earth is really 4000 years old.


Really? Not to me. 'Creationists' usually refer to one source: Genesis. In addition to being impossible to corroborate, it flies in the face of 'common logic', but hey, that's God for ya.

Fomenko approaches the issue from a variety of angles, and shows that one must bend in a variety of directions in order to get empirical evidence to support consensual history. Fomenko doesn't get into a discussion about the age of the Earth, he discusses the age of the consensual body of literature describing the history of civilizations inhabiting the earth.

Quote:
Not sure if this critic is right, but Fomenko certainly does seem to be in a rush to radically revise history. Is he simply motivated by the search for truth, or is there another psycological reason for this eccentric interpretation of world history?


Right about what? Fomenko's 'rush' is the result of fifteen or so years of research and a couple of multi volulme earlier publications. Mr. Colavito is a journalism student from New York who spent all of 20 minutes on his 'review' - which is pretty lame.

Quote:

Fomenko also ignores other lines of evidence. He does not account for the chronological continuity of the Roman Catholic popes, or the well-dated series of Church Councils and Papal Bulls. He completely dismisses the radiocarbon evidence that dates artifacts from Rome and the Middle Ages to the accepted timetable and not to his own revised chronology.

[...]

Well, that answer is quite simple. Fomenko is Russian, so it is not surprising that Fomenko "discovered" that Russia was the source of universal empire and that its culture gave rise to England. That explains his Byzantine chauvinism, for the Russian czars (= Caesars) saw themselves as the legitimate successors to the Byzantine emperors through the miracle of shared faith in the (then united) Orthodox Church. If England could be shown to "really; be Byzantium, then all the advances of England, and America, are "really" Byzantine and hence Russian. In other words, this elaborate theory is nothing more than an attempt to bolster the battered and broken shell of the formerly great Russian state, and to claim for Mother Russia a small piece of the reflected glory of a world that passed it by.

From: Who Lost the Middle Ages?
http://jcolavito.tripod.com/lostcivilizations/id13.html


After having actually read most of vol. one myself, this description of Fomenko's motivations strikes me as rather weak, and ultimately has no bearing on the validity of his evidence. Not that his work strikes me as an attempt to restore 'Mother Russia's' global prominence, but if it were, so what? Either his evidence and reasoning is faulty or it ain't. A "small piece of the reflected glory"....? That sounds like it came from Journalism class rather than science.

Comparing their credentials appears to paint Fomenko as more of a 'science guy' than Mr. Colavito.

Quote:

Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anatoly T. Fomenko.
Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko (Russian: (born 13 March 1945) is a Russian mathematician, professor of Moscow State University, well-known as a topologist, and a full member of the Russian Academy of Sciences. He was born in Donetsk, Ukraine.

Mathematical work

Anatoly T. Fomenko is a full member (Academician) of the Russian Academy of Sciences, the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences and the International Higher Education Academy of Sciences, as well as a doctor of physics and mathematics, a professor, and head of the Differential Geometry Department of the Faculty of Mathematics and Mechanics in Moscow State University.
Fomenko is the author of the theory of invariants and topological classification of integrable Hamiltonian dynamic systems. He is the author of 180 scientific publications, 26 monographs and textbooks on mathematics, a specialist in geometry and topology, variational calculus, symplectic topology, Hamiltonian geometry and mechanics, and computer geometry. Fomenko is also the author of a number of books on the development of new empirico-statistical methods and their application to the analysis of historical chronicles as well as the chronology of antiquity and the Middle Ages.
Fomenko is the author of extensive writings in his original fields of mathematics, and is also famous for his original drawings, inspired by topological objects and structures (http://anatoly-fomenko.com).

From: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Timofeevich_Fomenko


Quote:

Jason Colavito
Jason Colavito is a freelance writer based in Albany, NY. His first book, The Cult of Alien Gods: H.P. Lovecraft and Extraterrestrial Pop Culture was published by Prometheus Books in 2005.
 
Holding a degree in both anthropology and journalism, Colavito has made a name for himself in the world of alternative archaeology debunking fringe science and revisionist history in the web-base magazine Lost Civilizations Uncovered. His work has appeared in Skeptic magazine, Humanist Network News, Swift, and TVTome. In addition, he authored the "Corporate Irish" exhibit for the Irish American Heritage Museum and a teacher's guide to the World Trade Center memorial exhibit for the New York State Museum.

From: About Me
http://jcolavito.tripod.com/lostcivilizations/id32.html


Hmmm. Interesting. When it comes to reviews, I guess everybody's an 'expert'. After getting his journalism degree, Mr. Colavito has 'made a name for himself' debunking 'revisionist' history. So, he does have some experience, even if he is a self taught 'debunker', so I guess he ought to know about all that scienc-y isotope dating stuff.

I wonder why he enjoys debunking 'alternative' ancient history so much? Perhaps he's got some 'other motive', as he suggests Fomenko does? Restoring the US to global prominence? Maybe.

How about making a buck pedaling a book about how Lovecraft got it all wrong about 'ancient' civilizations and the 'Chariots of the Gods' style hoopla. Yeah, I guess the book would be pretty obsolete if both Lovecraft and 'Ancient History' were both bunk.

Interesting angle from which to 'debunk' a PhD. in physics and mathematics. Well, I'm sure figuring out that Ancient Alien puzzle really sharpened Jason's critical thinking abilities. I thought that Nibiru and Dogon stuff was a slam dunk! Wink

Quote:




Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly

Combining literary theory, cultural criticism and muckraking, Colavito aims to debunk alternative history-believing, for instance, that aliens genetically engineered human life-but gets swept up in the frenzy of his own arguments and ends up positing "the western world is now adrift amidst its own decadence and decline." Colavito, a former believer in alternative history, traces the various beliefs' roots to H.P. Lovecraft's fiction. He does a fair job of presenting his case, using a great deal of textual analysis, but believers will dismiss it as yet another attempt to suppress the "truth," while those who haven't been immersed in the literature are likely to be bewildered or indifferent. Colavito tries to address this concern with broad theories about why such ideas have taken hold and what it shows about the state of humanity, a line of exposition that grows more prevalent and less persuasive as the book progresses; Colavito resorts to sweeping generalizations the reader must buy into for the rest to follow-an especially difficult proposition given Colavito's credentials (he is a freelance writer, not a historian or sociologist). Though the writing is engaging and the topic intriguing, readers will be frustrated by Colavito's frequent forays to the soapbox.
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.


Soapbox? Jason? Wink

Quote:

Book Description

Nearly half of all Americans believe in the existence of extraterrestrials, and many are also convinced that aliens have visited earth at some point in history. Included among such popular beliefs is the notion that so-called ancient astronauts (visitors from outer space) were responsible for historical wonders like the pyramids. Shocking new evidence proves that the entire genre of ancient astronaut books is based upon fictional horror stories, whose author once wrote that he never wished to mislead anyone.
In this entertaining and informative book, Jason Colavito traces the origins of the belief in ancient extraterrestrial visitors to the work of horror writer H. P. Lovecraft (1890–1937). This amazing tale takes the reader through fifty years of pop culture and pseudoscience highlighting such influential figures and developments as Erich von Däniken (Chariots of the Gods), Graham Hancock (Fingerprints of the Gods), Zecharia Sitchin (Twelfth Planet), and the Raelian Revolution. The astounding and improbable connections among these various characters are revealed, along with the disturbing consequences of Lovecraft’s "little joke" for modern science and public knowledge.
Beyond documenting Lovecraft’s influence on ancient astronaut theories and Raelian cloning efforts, Colavito also argues that the appeal of such modern myths is a troubling sign in an age when science is having its greatest success. He suggests that at the dawn of the 21st century Western society is witnessing a deep-seated erosion of Enlightenment values that are the basis of the modern world. 


From: Amazon.com: The Cult of Alien Gods: H.P. Lovecraft And Extraterrestial Pop Culture: Books: Jason Colavito
link


I'm not trying to rip Mr. Colavito a new blow hole, simply show that, as far as agendas go, Jason's got a far more obvious one than Fomenko.

In addition to the fact that he has no idea what he's talking about, and I doubt actually read the book, his review is such a weak attack that IMO, it strengthens the concept of a conditioned 'consensual' history dictating our view of reality.

It's also comforting to know there weren't any 'Ancient Astronauts' either. Wink
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Toto



Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 348

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MichaelC wrote:
much of the 'american history' that I was taught in school was indeed fiction - some might call it plain old outright lies. I refer to the presentation of such topics as the american civil war, the federal reserve & "AID$". God knows what today's children are being told about this stuff - without even getting to the fictions of '911' and 'terrorism'.


I wonder if people could actually handle the truth with so many on anti-depressents.... How can they heal being on drugs?
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Xiang



Joined: 17 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does Fomenko explain the shifts of language through time? Just by examining the structure of the English language would be enough to debunk his theories of "everything" starting around year 1000. Does Fomenko touch the linguistics/history of languages, namely Indo-European?
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Xiang



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So then is this topic officially case closed? The shifts in language makes this theory void.
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cliff



Joined: 01 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do measure a time span with a language shift? You could do it for the last 2-300 years I guess, but after that, what records are you relying on? Or is there some scientific way of measuring when a language shift occurred?
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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So then is this topic officially case closed? The shifts in language makes this theory void.


I would attempt to respond to your post, had I any idea what your point is.

What shifts in what language happened when and were recorded by whom? What the hell is a language 'shift' anyway? What do these 'shift's supposedly prove?

Fomenko doesn't assert 'everything' started in the year 1000 AD. He suggests that 'ancient' imperialist civilizations, such as the Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians were largely fabricated by scribes who supposedly 'translated' copies of copies of ancient copies into Latin. This latin 'update' of the supposed 'ancient' original was then placed into the universities of the Italian Renaissance which led to an 'enlightenment' of the 'people' and a 'democratizing' of the entire world.

Please explain how your language research blows this hypothesis wide open. Better yet, you could specifically quote some of Fomenko's research and show how your understanding 'voids' it.

I found a site that hosts a few other articles relating to this 'New Chronology' concept. These are kind of interesting.

Investigation of the Correctness of the Historical Dating by Wieslaw Z. Krawcewicz, Gleb V. Nosovskij and Petr P. Zabreiko

Mathematics of the Past by Garry Kasparov

Currently, I'm neck deep in trying to figure out what actually went down during the 'Renaissance' which appears to have been heavily centered around Florence in the 14th century. 'Antiquity' certainly appears to have been 're-discovered' in Florence, thanks largely to this dude:

Quote:


Gian Francesco Poggio Bracciolini
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Biography
Poggio Bracciolini studied Latin under John of Ravenna, and Greek under Manuel Chrysoloras. His distinguished abilities and his dexterity as a copyist of manuscripts brought him into early notice with the chief scholars of Florence. Coluccio Salutati and Niccolò de' Niccoli befriended him, and in the year 1402 or 1403 he was received into the service of the Roman Curia. His functions were those of a secretary; and, though he profited by benefices conferred on him in lieu of salary, he remained a layman to the end of his life. It is noticeable that, while he held his office in the curia through that momentous period of fifty years which witnessed the Councils of Konstanz and of Basel, and the final restoration of the papacy under Nicholas V, his sympathies were never attracted to ecclesiastical affairs.

[...]

Nothing marks the secular attitude of the Italians at an epoch which decided the future course of both Renaissance and Reformation more strongly than the mundane proclivities of this apostolic secretary, heart and soul devoted to the resuscitation of classical studies amid conflicts of popes and antipopes, cardinals and councils, in all of which he bore an official part.

[...]

The greater part of Poggio's long life was spent in attendance to his duties in the papal curia at Rome and elsewhere. But about the year 1452 he finally retired to Florence, where he was admitted to the burghership, and on the death of Carlo Aretino in 1453 was appointed chancellor and historiographer to the republic. He had already built himself a villa in the Valdarno, which he adorned with a collection of antique sculpture, coins and inscriptions. In 1435 he had married a girl of eighteen named Vaggia, of the famous Buondelmonte blood. His declining days were spent in the discharge of his honorable Florentine office and in the composition of his history. He died in 1459, and was buried in the church of Santa Croce. A statue by Donatello and a portrait by Antonio del Pollaiuolo remain to commemorate a citizen who chiefly for his services to humanistic literature deserved the notice of posterity.

[...]

In the way of many humanists of his time, Poggio himself wrote only in Latin, and translated works from Greek into that language. His letters are full of learning, charm, detail, and amusing personal attack on his enemies and colleagues. It is also noticeable as illustrating the Latinizing tendency of an age which gave classic form to the lightest essays of the fancy.

From: Gian Francesco Poggio Bracciolini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poggio_Bracciolini


Here's a non-wiki opinion on Bracciolini:

Quote:

An objective political need arose for the writing of one's own history, in comparison with a history common and characteristic for an empire. It was necessary to find or to create the proper historical roots, one's own antiquity, which was not the same as the antiquity of the neighbors. In which connection, the more deeply these roots went into the centuries, the more legitimate those or the other rulers looked in the eyes of the subjects. It was as if their authority was sanctified by the centuries.

And then the primary framework of modern historiography was invented.  A hunt was launched for manuscripts which were declared as ancient. The main body of sources on the history of antiquity appeared over only 2 centuries - the 15th and 16th.  How this happened is well known not only to critics of traditional historiography, but also to the traditionalists themselves.

The ancient manuscripts appeared according to a scheme which is well seen in the example of one of the brightest forgers of that time, Poggio Bracciolini. He, an author of historical and moralistic books, was in the full sense of the word the dominant influence of his century.  Many found it possible to define the first half of the Italian 15th Century as Poggio's century.   Florence raised a statue to him, which was carved by the sculpture Donatello.

With the cooperation of the Florentine scholar and book collector Niccolo Niccoli, Poggio Bracciolini established a kind of permanent study of ancient literature and attracted a whole series of collaborators and partners to the business.

Poggio Bracciolini and Bartolomeo di Montepulciano made thefirst of their "finds" in the era of the Council of Constance.  In a forgotten, damp tower of the St. Gall monastery, in which a prisoner would not survive even three days, they chanced "to find" safe and sound a heap of ancient manuscripts:  essays by Quintilian, Valerius Flaccus, Asconius Pedianus, Nonius Marcellus, Probus and others.    After some time, Bracciolini supposedly discovered fragments "from Petronius" and "the Bucolics" of Calpurnius.

Poggio's clients were the Medici, the aristocratic families of England , the House of the Dukes of Burgundy, Cardinal Orsini, Colonus, the wealthy such Bartholomeo ;Bardis, and universities.  He became very rich on "ancient" manuscripts.  

One would think it was impossible to forge archaeological finds. But one can find just that which is needed and there where it is needed.

The excavations of Herculaneum began in 1711, and in 1748, the excavations at Pompeii .  They bore an advertising and commercial nature.  There was no discussion of any scientific research. The first excavations in Athens were made by the English "Society of Amateurs" in 1743-1751. It was as it was called - a society of amateurs, and it is not suitable to speak about the scientific level of the excavations. But even this is not the main thing. The archaeological expeditions which followed purposefully destroyed all the discoveries that contradicted the established views on history. In the best case, they declared them as erroneous.

Sculptors also created a supposedly ancient history.  The facts are well known when some of them buried statues of their own creation in the ground and several years later informed the world about the fact that they found in their own vegetable gardens the imperishable works of the ancient masters .
From:
http://www.revisedhistory.org/buy.html


The only thing I know for sure, is that I can't shake the feeling that the past isn't as cut and dried as my high school history history teacher claimed.
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Xiang



Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One can examine the consonant shifts in the Germanic language. There are texts with the proof as early as the 8th century. You can cross reference the important events with the shifts in sounds of the language. Grimm's and Verner's Law can describe it better. I'm by no means an expert on German linguistics. What I'm trying to say is that languages change over time, and you can see it in the sounds shifts. You cross reference it with the important events. Does Fomenko talk about this? Sadly, I don't own his book.
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Ormond



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
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Location: Belly of the Beast, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grimm's and Verner's Law of sound shift in German language is a useful point. German is a language that's changed a great deal since Goethe. As proof that someone didn't make up the changes by faking old published books, such as Goethe, I've had contact with the small German rural communities here in Texas and Minnesota who settled during the early 19th century---locally some of the old folks still speak German, and it's well known that the German they speak is from the time of Goethe.

The same has been studied of hillbillies in the Arkansas Ozarks. As recently as the 1970's, their grammer and words like 'victuals' (food) and "over yonder" are frozen Elizibethian English. The hillbillies originate from indentured servants brought over from England to the Virginia and Carolina colonies during the mid to late 1600's, who when freed moved westward to Arkansas where they could put old cars up on blocks.

Language shift, and also these examples of 'frozen' language are good points, as time markers.

However, that doesn't render the History chronology tampering notion invalid. Personally, I think that Fomenko's conclusions are highly inaccurate. But his proposal that history has been drastically re-written to suit a new paradigm seems highly sound to me.

I have already noted the rewriting of history happening between the time I was in elementary school and now. We are in the midst of an 'upgrade' in world system and paradigm (that goes with it), and history is definitely being 'upgraded' to suit it.
We are not seeing much chronology shift yet in 20th Century history, but that probably happens later. I would say what the chronology of history really was previous to 200 years past can always be a 'crap shoot'. `

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