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WTC - The Tower Collapses
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StillDiggin



Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Here is a video apparently only just released on 09/11/06,filmed 500 yards from the North Tower,36 stories up.
Unfortunately when the second plane hits they do not catch it,or the first tower falling down,but they do manage to get the 2nd tower falling live,with all the reactions of the smoke/debris from the second tower aswell.



That video reeks of manipulation. Too convenient that it misses both the "tipping" event and the "impact" event. I'm sure it used to be complete at one time. Too bad we don't get to see it.
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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
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Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That video reeks of manipulation. Too convenient that it misses both the "tipping" event and the "impact" event. I'm sure it used to be complete at one time. Too bad we don't get to see it.


Yeah. I agree. What a wank.
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quicknthedead
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Plane Impact Times Reply with quote

Plane Impact Times – Indicting New Evidence of 9/11 Coverup & Involvment

“Seismic Proof – 9/11 Was An Inside Job (Updated Version II)”
Link: http://worldtradecentertruth.com/volume/200609/SeismicFurlong.doc
By Craig T. Furlong & Gordon Ross
Scholars for 9/11 Truth: http://www.st911.org/

Summary:

One World Trade, September 11th, 2001
American Airlines Flight 11
8:46:40 UTC - FAA last primary radar contact [aircrash]
8:46:30 UTC - LDEO/NIST [seismic event, originally presumed aircrash]
Both times: real, precise

QUESTION- What caused the 8:46:30 seismic event 10 seconds before the aircrash?
ANSWER- The only possibility: HUGE EXPLOSION(S)!

Notes:
Ginny Carr audiotape ~9.2 second gap between initial explosion and aircrash.
The 9/11 Commission avoided the time of the initial seismic event.
The 9/11 Commission avoided many witnesses who testified of explosions in the basements.
NIST avoided many witnesses who testified of explosions in the basements.
NIST avoided 9/11 Commission’s time.

Demand new 9/11 investigation now, this time ONE WITH TEETH!
Justice waits.
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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 850
Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PERSONAL VIGNETTE: A 42 year old who grew up in the Caribbean where high rise begins at 5 storeys... naturally I was fascinated by elevator systems and sky scrapers, to me they represent something as attuned to the vested dreams of humankind as the exploration of space (prior era, same dream); pictures of the Towers clipped from National Geographic and others prominent on my bedroom wall.

I visited the towers in 1982: had just turned 18, carrying an USPS Express Mail sack over my shoulder containing a notebook (later blank except for some phone numbers, just a tourist after all), collected guide material and of course, a towel which really does come in handy while exploring the galaxy... spent a full day at the towers. Did the observation tourist thing, the early lunch at Windows thing, took elevators to walk floors at random, descend in stairwells, walk adjacent floors. Deciding on the main objective: Tower One, 110 -- literally broadcast heaven of the busiest city in the world. Access to 110 was not an easy crack even in '82.

Below the future impact point was a mechanical floor, 41-43 -- an open air three story space of air conditioning, workshops and large tanks. Starting above, I worked the stairwells until I found my way in: there were reed switches on all the doors, but on 41 (forgot which stair) someone had left a piece of cardboard wedged to keep it from latching. I found the cavenous space exhilirating and empty of people. It was during the lunch hour but a friendly fellow whose overalls said 'Eddie' recognized me right off "You a tourist?" and pointed out some of the features; the largest components related to air conditioning. A hell of a lot of water up there. After the tour of the mech floor, I told him of my fascination with things broadcast -- at 15 had worked full time, doing repairs and a bit of RF at a local FM station -- and my desire to visit 110. "We'll see what we can do." We entered the freight elevator and Eddie inserted a key for 110; there was a camera mounted in the button panel. He had told me to stay in the center of the car towards the front. A voice said "Security." Eddie said "Yo!" or some such, but the car was already rising. Left me off at 110, didn't even get out of the car. "Happy trails" he said. Hope he is OK, never caught his last name and cannot even bring myself to look at the lists, I'm sure there are Eddies there.

I talked to a few technicians on 110 and eventually approached the elevator again, walking past a Port Authority guard who looked at me a bit askance but there was no challenge, I think he was just glad I was leaving. Even before the days of cell phones Tower One was THE human species' densest and most complex RF envrironment ever assembled,so many high power transmiters in close proximity. Anything above 400mhz was relegated to zones around the roof's perimiter, the central tower used exclusively for broadcast. During scheduled maintenance on the central tower to replace corroded elelments, add new or redistribute energy, engineers would bring down plate current in the final stages to avoid potentially fatal RF current in the immediate work areas, then as one said "Bring it up in stages, tune for hours. With that much energy up there when something goes wrong, zap, pow! By the time you hear someone on the floor shout 'Fuck!' the damage is already done."

A fascinating and interesting day for a young fellow. Not as exciting as sitting on a narrow concrete ledge in the evening as New York rose around, above and below me, swinging my legs 57 vertical floors above the pavement... or later, in the wee hours, having powered up shaft lights, sitting on the center of a wire mesh in the lotus position with a wired field remote in my hand directly above the pulley truss... beneath me, the elevator shaft receding visually to a tiny point in the distance. For hours (between legitimate uses) I'd send the car from lobby to top and down again, the wind from its ascent lifting my hair almost horizontal as the car approached, huge motors and brakes slapping in and out... but that is another building, another story.


I love those towers still, so if I ever get emotional and tow the line of decorum when detracting or opinionating, I nevertheless appreciate the free flow of discussion! This puzzle must be approached as one would a suspicious spacecraft failure -- not only the urgency to solve a 'crime of the century' or to take someone down -- it is just such a grevious and useless waste of potential if we should fear to build or occupy these things because a few assholes wish to break precious things, bring the world down around them in obscene short-sighted hubris, if that be the case. The WRONG reasons. The truth may be painful but must be explored. For me it is academic -- and personal.

Quote:
Christopher: THE WTC TOWERS HAD A CONCRETE CORE. THE EXPLOSIVES WERE BUILT INTO THE REBAR, THEN SEALED IN AIRTIGHT CONCRETE FOR 30 YEARS. THIS WAS A TECHNOLOGY USED BY THE MILITARY IN THE 60'S FOR SELF DESTRUCT MISSLE SILOS.


I think Christopher has done an invaluable service (paradigm shift) to identify or posit cast concrete as material used to provide 'cross stability'... I am not ashamed to admit for a time regards core steel I was thinking strictly along "Eiffel Tower" lines, while looking at the support structure for the Aussie cranes, as I think many have -- assuming box construction throughout where a connectative mesh is as well horizontally reinforced as vertical.

The collapse initiation scenario bouncing around in my head now involves an attack at or around the impact levels -- also a 'ground level' attack, perhaps on floor 6 where there was a heavy slab (ceiling of lobby, also structural base) and the modes of structural support, exterior columns and core was in transition. I think survival of the North Tower people who had just entered the stairwells below the 'slab' is crucial. If the portion of the core they were in had experienced any direct wave of concussion they would not be alive. What are refered to in testimony as 'ground level events' range up to floor ~10 or so.

If one accepts that the core was not a classic "Eiffel Tower" unit of steel -- but relied on concrete for horizontal rigidity... consider a scenario where cutting the core diagnoally at impact level or below... same time destabilizing base and column just above floor 6 'slab' level -- would initiate collapse: the hat truss fails explosively as the core loses integrity... the upper half of the building progressively 'merges' with the lower half. The floors are becoming pulverised as the trusses hit lower floors; but in the core you have an effect more like 'impaling' than 'cutting/imploding'. In this scenario core concrete is not being blown asunder by 'embedded' or 'placed' charges, it is being whacked through by the severed vertical steel components of the upper half of the building, which would be not shattered to bits but in the least breaking at weld and bolt during the process; then, as the density of the compacted mass retards its downward velocity, a final settle into a roughly donught shaped mass -- the least energetic 'bubble' as its center, below the lobby ceiling from 6 down to subbasement where humans could (and happily did) survive.

Coming to rest as a roughly six story pile. When we entertain 'free fall' arguments we are left by necessity to observation of the exterior, with the cloud hiding the detail. As an alternative to 'classic' demolition of an already-cut mass falling cleanly into it's own footprint, I offer but hesitate to use the term 'piston' -- but it is not unlike the two halves of a large piston coming together, bound by a central 'ahaft' (disclamer, I am not making a simple reference to 'piston effect' used to explain visible squiblike artifacts, but one may see that behavior IF the ejecta represents the level of the 'leading edge' as falling core elements impale concrete)

The momentary 'spire' then, would be the remnant of all that was steel and vertical in the core, having been side-sheared brutally along its length by companion elements that it once suppoted above, or (if the spire was a remnant of the upper parts) had once supported it from below.

As to placement,

I am not ready to buy into c.1974 pre-positioned explosives. With such a scheme you have such a golden whistleblower prize, you must not just secure the personnel to do it, but you must trust people over time to keep a lid on a most interesting fact. If one of them even whispers a hint, you'd have a situation where anyone could have gained access to gather evidence. In '82 I had the stairwells all to myself, I could have been swinging a sledge hammer, spent the day spidering about collecting incriminating samples. Even embedding into the rebar would not escape drill sampling... it does not fit Occam's Razor well enough IMO, too exotic.

You have POST-1993 'RECONSTRUCTION' TIME WINDOW: pre-rigging the four outer columns would meet the test easier, presenting a more 'manageable' amount of exposure when planting charges, especially if they become embedded into the structure. QUESTION: What of the tower not targeted... structural 'improvements'?

You have a THREE MONTH TIME WINDOW June-September 2001; I arbitrarily use the DOD intercept memo as a baseline, as in "...somethin' is blowin' in the wind, my friend..."

You have the TWO WEEK WINDOW after Silverstein's deal closed, a time in which there was personnel from four entity sets in the building: Outgoing (Port Authority brass and cops), Incoming (Silverstein folk), the 'Lifers', those in the PA whose jobs would likely bridge the transition, and Tenants. Some turf wars perhaps, a degree of confusion and key-duplicating and "He must be with so-and-so" assumptions happening. In that two week window any one of those sets -- or even a fifth groiup who could spoof any of the others if they had keys or badges.

__
Taking a surreal break from "Carmina Burana", things are collapsing as 'Stardust' is sung by Nat King Cole.
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truthseeker



Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:05 am    Post subject: Finnish h-bomb theorist Reply with quote

This is beginning to sound correct...

This is an absolute certain explosion, not any type of collapse or clean,
controlled demolition. And the device in use here is an upwards directed
mini H-bomb. Even in this picture, there are 10+ superheated outer wall elements spitting a steel-vapour trail behind them. Additionally, plenty of pulverized concrete is visible! And it comes from the floor plates. In the outer walls of the building there was steels, glass and some heath insulation only.

It is not possible to set conventional military explosives in a way to achieve this result shown in the picture. So much and so heavy stuff flying at once simply is not possible, if the building still was in office use as we know it was. This picture is stranger than you may believe. The diameter of the mushroom cloud above the building is in the order of 200 meters. At the edges of this mushroom cloud there are steels weighting tons and outer wall elements weighting 22 tons each. But also enormous amouths of pulverized concrete. And more of it climbing vertically upwards
at the top of the tower.

Ejecting those heavy steels, especially those 22-ton outer wall steel elemenments with onventional military explosives is very difficult because there are very little strong points behind the outer walls to place springer charges. No one will ever plan a controlled demolition, where 22-ton steel elements are thrown upwards in some 60-degree angle. If something needs to be moved to smoothen the explosive chain it will be moved horizontally. But there is no need for such ejecta, either.

It is commonly believed you could simulate a thermonuclear detonation (or actually frame it) using huge stocks of conventional military explosives. In this case, where they actually detonated a 1-kiloton H-device, it should be possible to frame it setting a thousand tons of tnt within this tower. This means you order 60 truckloads of tnt (17 tons each) and a huge number of fuzes and explosive cord to wire them.
But remember, we saw some single cutting charges firing 10 to 20 stores belowe the "collapse", but never more than one at a time. In my opininion, those detonations were skilfully timed to separate them both in time and in space. Lets see what happens, if we try to repeat what is shown in the picture using conventional explosives of various
types only.

Suppose we set 200 tons of tnt onto those two floors exploding in the picture. Then we set it all to be exploded within a few milliseconds. What would happen? The tower would explode, yes. Those smaller outer wall steels smashed (weighting a few tons) would fly away just like they do in yhe picture. But those 22-ton wall elements would not start to fly into a neat ballistic curve first going steep upwards and later downwards.
And the thick steel vapour trail following each one would surely be missing. There would not be heavy clouds of concrete, there would be thinner dust only. The noise of the explosion would be much louder. Something like a fireball would form up there (and not be hidden in the basement out of sight what really happened). A flame would strike out
next to every window not unlike a 2-deck frigate from 18th century firing a full broadside salvo.

The mechanismus behind the picture above was quite different. The fireball of the H-device formed out of sight around 3rd cellar floor of the central core. The bomb was directed upwards so some 95% ot the energy went that way into the cone of destruction. Some additional holes were propably blown minutes before triggering the H-device in order to
facilitate the explosion. Without it the H-bomb would hit with full force the roof of the elevator shaft (and the roof of the tower) but this is too narrow and not what was observed. A terribly strong, invisible blast of neutrons went up in the cone of destruction, converting steels superhot and exploding lesser objects instantenously. The concrete floors were penetrated easily and all the concrete exploded as any water within it
vapourized into 1000-fold volume (and not 24-fold, as I said earlier 15 months ago).

Quickly behind the neutron volley arrived the heath wave and the blast wave caused by the fireball effect. All material within the cone of destruction totally disintegrated (exect some of the heaviest steel beams and columns). Some materials outside the cone was also destroyed, because various objects within the cone caused reflections. The picture shows the situation some six seconds after the neutron volley and four+
seconds after the full pressure wave has hit the outer walls of the tower and broke through it.

You simply cannot frame a thernonuclear explosion like this and claim that perhaps it was just a huge explosion using conventional explosives (like super-rdx and super- thermate in this case). The conventional explosives will produce very much mechanical energy (blast pressure wave), a little thermal effects and no radioactive radiation of residues.

I suppose that part of the readers who already have some clue will find out roughly what took place. If you don't know the explosives can be directed, start reading about the hollow (shaped) charge. Then find out what a claymore mine is, and proceed to some advanced weapon which affects the target by exploding far away (in Finland we have
what is called "light antitank flanking mine"; in the US there are cluster antitank bombs with the bomblets hovering and exploding above the tanks with approximately the same effects). If you don't know the same is possible with a pure hydrogen 4th generation nuclear bomb, please see the link (Gspooner) referred at the end of reason 6 ) in the
beginning of this document. As I first published this theory the reference was not available -you know the real experts from their ability to estimate what will be coming next in their field of profession.

One more step ahead. Why no one has told these things in the magazines, newspapers, in TV or in the radio? And could there be people so evil they kill thousends of their countrymen without heasitation? The media is very concentrated and our real rulers are a small group of ultra wealthy people controlling the media as well as the central banks. The situation was the same already at the end of 19th century, for more than one hundred years ago. And regarding the evil those religious people having faith will catch this one quicker. But the US had it's last true war 1812 (the second war against the British) and all the wars after that have been based on frameups, false-flag operations and other state terrorism (including the original Pearl Harbour, which was preceeded by eight insults against the Japan). In the real life the rulers of smaller countries are not madmen,
and they do not challenge contemporary superpowers, or even states with an equal strength (what ever the media is saying).

So I hope I have been able to clarify what problems are to be expected when the current favourite theory in the 9/11 truth movement (MIH with conventional explosives) is being compared with this mini H-device theory. There are more than 20 weird observations pointing to my theory. Please try to spread the word.
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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 850
Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AUTHOR'S EDIT: Please accept this as a public example of inappropriate, pompous, nitty, even mean behavior, I utterly retract it and apologize and will leave it as is so everyone will know I am capable of this kind of thing, though I would rather forget. Yuck! ~Hocus

Quote:
This is beginning to sound correct..

Generic Shared Opening Consensus Simulation Phrase #4712
Quote:
This is an absolute certain explosion, not any type of collapse or clean, controlled demolition. [blah blah...] directed mini H-bomb. Even in this picture, there are 10+ superheated outer wall elements [and loose dilithium crystals Cap'n we're taking on water!]

As a certain someone said earlier somewhere in the bowels of these forums, "It's not that the science is necessarily bad, although there's plenty of that going around [...] but the fact that the science is so firmly driven by MARKETING that is pernicious." Which is why this was dropped as fait accompli without even passing reference to

"Writings of a Finnish Military Expert on 9/11"
http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/military.htm
http://www.kolumbus.fi/totuus/doc/wtcatom.html

Only a fool would use a nuclear devices for such a simple demolition job -- when they would be more appropriately used on the ones who set it up. And probably wipe out Bin Laden in the bargain, wherever he may be. Only his titanium kidneys would survive the blast.

--
Musical accompaniment for H-Bomb, Spike Jones & the City Slickers: Tea for Two

AUTHOR'S EDIT: See top


Last edited by Hocus Locus on Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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truthseeker



Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 177
Location: NW U.S.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hocus Locus wrote:
Quote:
This is beginning to sound correct..

Generic Shared Opening Consensus Simulation Phrase #4712
Quote:
This is an absolute certain explosion, not any type of collapse or clean, controlled demolition. [blah blah...] directed mini H-bomb. Even in this picture, there are 10+ superheated outer wall elements [and loose dilithium crystals Cap'n we're taking on water!]

As a certain someone said earlier somewhere in the bowels of these forums, "It's not that the science is necessarily bad, although there's plenty of that going around [...] but the fact that the science is so firmly driven by MARKETING that is pernicious." Which is why this was dropped as fait accompli without even passing reference to

"Writings of a Finnish Military Expert on 9/11"
http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/military.htm
http://www.kolumbus.fi/totuus/doc/wtcatom.html

Only a fool would use a nuclear devices for such a simple demolition job -- when they would be more appropriately used on the ones who set it up. And probably wipe out Bin Laden in the bargain, wherever he may be. Only his titanium kidneys would survive the blast.

--
Musical accompaniment for H-Bomb, Spike Jones & the City Slickers: Tea for Two


I stand corrected. TWICE! Confused

Please accept my apologies, Hocus, for dashing off such a generic phrase as introduction. I will, in future posts, endeavor to be more erudite.

As to the clumsy partial post of exactly the material to which you so helpfully linked, I suppose any explanation would fall short of persuasive, so again, I will offer my humble apology, and promise to be more careful with future posts. I certainly should have known that such a careless post would attract just such disdain as you have exhibited.

However, I will point out that your attempt at Extra-Sensory Perception "Which is why this was dropped as a FAIT ACCOMPLI..." is quite simply incorrect. I wonder if the certainty with which you asserted your error is indicative of the manner in which you deal with other information. Others reading your post may indeed wonder if that tendancy might be generalized in other postings you make here.

No, indeed. Far from marketing a given viewpoint, this humble tractor operator simply wanted to focus this now 10-page discussion on one of the more interesting links contained therein, but which strangely had received as yet very little discussion.

"Only a fool..." seems a very suspect introductory clause if, indeed, you intend to persuade this insightful crew as to the reasonableness of theories propounded in such an outrageous instance as the 9-11 act and subsequent cover-ups. Only a fool, indeed! At every level. And foolish though I may be, the Finnish military expert makes some persuasive arguments. My impression was that this was the space for reasoned discussion of exactly such theories. Dismissive rejoinders such as the one you offered my clumsy post smack of something else, entirely.

Now, care you to comment on the substance of the Finnish fellow's data, reasoning, or conclusions? Smile
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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 850
Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

truthseeker wrote:
stand corrected. TWICE!
...


No corrections, please accept my apology, fellow human. When I put my foot in it I go all the way from brain to basement. Not just ugly but 'textbook ugly'. Yuck.

And fer gosh sakes don't endeavor to do anything at all, since you didn't do anything wrong at all, that would just make everything worse. Every time you endeavored in public, I'd be murmuring to myself, "TO THINK I WAS THE ONE who made him endeavor so..."

A private message to you suggesting an edit to inclusion of a link is what was called for. As you have pointed out so well, I did not express anything but an pompus asslike opinion in a pompus asslike manner; I have edited the message to reflect this reflection.

Seriously but with attempted good natured humor,
Mea culpa.
Hocus
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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
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Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These threads -- especially the origanization of subject, excellent background -- and some unexpectedly really funny things!

Where's the big rubble pieces? Why was nothing left standing?

'Pancaking' -- though the term has been handed around so much like 'global warming' -- only too well describes what happened to those poor people. The only points of contention is how much of an initiation event would bring it on, to what measure? Being officially able to sidestep the demolition issue and the success of keeping construction detail of a building complex that killed more than a thousand people secret... official word is mum.

Diagonal cutting charges applied as a paste to vertically loaded columns are quick: suddenly you have a few molecules-thick path through the steel that has been vaporized completely, you have a liquid-smooth incline (literally molten) that heavy things on top want to slide down, smoothly... as they do, what is blelow wants to go sideways.

This scenario goes with my previous post in this thread (no, not that one ;-)

My minimal recipe du jour:

~ BASEMENT: Thermite (or monster cutting charge) on two-four corners. Corners only, NONE in core
~ FLOOR 6~10, ABOVE SLAB: One set, diagonal stripe cutting charges across all core columns
~ IMPACT FLOOR (or near): One set, diagonal stripe cutting charges across all core columns
~ RUBBLE BUSTER (optional): something with serious shock power (located to ensure operation at ~0:10?)
~ NOTHING else, maybe some pyro effects on top; cutting charges on corners at impact level may be necessary

[C-minus X, where X is expected time for thermite to have at least weakened the corners] Go thermite or whatever

[C-minus-0:08] WHUMP! Floor 6~10 cutting charges go off. At this point the whole building above that point is bearing down, you're going to get serious stress, possibly a separation but if there is a drop it would be more of a sag (the tensile connectedness is still mostly in place but at this point the core is no longer load bearing, the core itself is now an additional load to bear) Core in motion, nothing really visible from far away.

[C+0:00] WHUMP! Impact floor cutting charges go. Building is still in oscillation from previous shock; at impact point vertical columns slide off in core above -- much more energetically; core now in three pieces, only the lowest sunk into the bedrock. On Tower One, antenna mast seen to wobble. Hat truss fails explosively (probably explosives unnecessary considering the stress). Core has not just failed, upper portion is impaling itself down through concrete; cross members absorb energy BUT we have the weight of the top 1/3 bearing down on a few vertical elements, no single one can bear that much weight.

[C+0:03] Hat truss has failed. Visible telescoping begins at impact point; no instability in lower part visible because corners and lower floors are still 'holding' it as always; then at the point of first severance, severed core above floor 6 comes to rest beside itself (it may only need to settle a few feet but it's disconnected, is the main point)

[C+0:07] Lower part of building has a 'low' center, pulling everything inward; thermite (or whatever) has weakened corner supports so by virtue of their connectedness floor by floor, they are more inclined to warp inward. Now we have impaling action in the center, which tends to keep the collapse centered, in the first few seconds anyway. Top part of building is trying to fit over/outside the bottom part at the 'visible collapse line', top peeling out bottom being brutally deformed inwards.

[C+0:10] (optional) rubble buster burst, shaped horizontal and downward 360 degrees, to pulverize what remains, possibly in a thick enclosure riding down from the top to ensure its correct operation late in the timeline. This charge would also cause energetic dissipation of pyrochastic cloud; but the resulting cloud would have mostly 'cold' edges because the cloud is already there, and is massive (in terms of volume and mass), since it is collapse debris and NOT the direct blast product of explosion, its edges -- as attested by those who were enveloped and survived -- well below the Boiling Point of People, a most happy observed fact. Might be audible as 'boomp' at tail end of roar, but maybe not as the cloud already surrounding it would have excellent dampening properties.

All in all not much boom stuff per tower: basic RDX, maybe th**mite or the melt in the rubble, no nukes, super thermate or extra egg. Three or four synchronous timed events, button initiation at will, well under budget.

With all the credentials conferred to me by my high 1978 school equivalency examination -- I believe it may have achieved collapse. But would it have achieved collapse, as observed?

Among the objectives, fit observer events (up to the point of computer modelling where the real payoff would be); use the least off the shelf hardware; produce visibly obvious truss failure assumed to result from core failure; unzipping of windows on ST may be basement corner column unexpectedly effective or ahead of schedule.


Ideas are clean: they soar in the supreme supernal; I can take them out and look at them, they fit in books, they lead me down the narrow way. But the world is round... and a messy mortal is my friend. Come walk with me in the mud... ~Hugh Prather

__

A worthy musical odyssey to the superme supernal: Alan Parsons Project: I, Robot (from start to finish)
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truthseeker



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:12 am    Post subject: No harm done, Hocus... Reply with quote

The link contains photos and links to additional data. The persuasive text to which I referred is copied below.

http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/soldier4.htm

Observations Suggesting the Use of Small Hydrogen Bombs

1) The concrete pulverized into fine dust, 70…300 micron particles (just this could take more energy than the total gravitational energy available). See Gehue plates 6 and 7

2) Very energetic – hot – dust after the explosions. (Demolition charges would produce white clouds of dust, which would not move much, and a gravity-driven collapse would produce much less and more coarse dust.)

3) Brown shades of color seen in the air – these are produced by nuclear reactions of a thermonuclear device. The reactions use (gamma radiation caused by free neutrons, N2, O2, H2O > nitrid acid, NO2, NO3). These clouds soon get their usual white color after some minutes as the heat and fast movement of the clouds cease becoming ordinary clouds with some water.

Note: many of the pictures taken regarding the WTC Towers and the clouds seem to have been developed too blue, killing shades of brown. (This may have been an attempt to suppress the evidence.) Also there was supposed to be 200 000+ gallons of water on the roof of each tower – this water was spilled into stairwells etc, but was later all converted into water vapour reducing the brown color.

4) Superheated steel objects, disintegrating into steel vapour. Molten ponds of steel were found in the elevator shafts. There were lots of burned cars in the parking areas of the towers. The fire department did not announce until 12/19/2001 that the fires under the WTC rubble have been distinguished (more than 3 months after the incident). For more, see (Gehue plate Cool


location F C name
A 1341 727 WTC7
B 1034 557 WTC7
C 1161 627 WTC1
D 963 517 WTC1
E 819 437 WTC3
F 801 427 WTC2
G 1377 747 WTC2
H 1017 547 WTC4

The thermal survey of the WTC 9/16/2001 (NASA /US Geological Survey). Despite of fire department having cooled the rubble, aluminium would still be melting in some sites 5 days after the incident.

5) Elevated values of tritium in this area, but not elsewhere in New York. The University of California found elevated values on 9/13/2001 and 9/21/2001 within bounds of the WTC. They found them harmless for health. In pure hydrogen bomb isotopes of hydrogen are fused (D + T > n + a + 17.6 MeV).

6) An EMP-type phenomenon blacked out cellular phones at the moment when the first (southern) tower started to 'fall down', at the exact moment when a small thermonuclear bomb was detonated. Even in electronic cameras and videos a strange afterglow was seen in the late phase of the 'collapse' of both of the towers. See Gehue plate 5

7) A wave of pressure was witnessed in the root of the tower at the moment when the so-called collapse was progressing just about two hundred meters and nothing had fallen down to earth. The blast wave turned over for example a photographer and a fireman close to the entrance, who was taking photos of the dust cloud. The burst of the dust cloud on the root of the tower was photographed as well. In the image at the left below is what probably was the explosion of WTC 6. The Customs building was deliberately exploded for some reason - it was not damaged because of the falling girders as they had not yet reached the roof of WTC 7 when the photo was taken. A couple of seconds later the clouds of the explosion were already partly above the roof of WTC 7, which was too energetical to be caused by usual blasting agents. This suggests it was the second hydrogen bomb in the WTC block. The first hydrogen bomb is discharging upwards (pulverized concrete) exactly in the picture, and the steel structures vaporized by the bomb are already falling down 100 meters (approx. 328 ft.) farther down. The mass of cloud, caused by vaporized steel, is seen in the center of the picture and even more clearly in the picture at the right.



Cool In the cellar, out of all the 47 ultra strong steel pillars, the steel was melted completely at the length of more than 20 meters (approx. 65 ft). Even cars were melted and burned in the cellar. The pillars were far too thick for thermite, which some have suggested. An explosion of a thermonuclear bomb explains the phenomenon well.

9) Steel columns and pillars were ejected in the surroundings of the building. In the beginning of the so-called collapse, exists no such energy exists that could throw steel pillars outwards from 60 to 175 meters (approx. from 170 to 574 ft.) from trunk. Not even cutting charges can do that. Instead, the blast wave from a nuclear bomb is capable to do that.

The seismic event recorded by Columbia University, the emp blackout, the fires that burned for WEEKS afterward, and the tritium measurements are all explained by the perfectly reasonable hypothesis that a 'suitcase' nuke was employed. Given the 'in-your-face' manner in which this entire operation was managed, it would have been consonant with that style to use current technology explosives.

How do you get 22-ton pieces flying UP and OUT with a gravity fall?
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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 850
Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:17 pm    Post subject: Mission Statement Reply with quote

Mission Statement

Disinfo Razor: Methods byzantine, bleeding edge equipment, convoluted procedure. Keep people issues simple: main patsies (Oswald), some manageable people in the deeper layers for blowback exposé (Ollie North), some circumstantial ploitical blame-frames (Clinton).

Hocus's Razor: Keep methods, equipment issues and procedures simple. Keep people issues complicated and convoluted, but have at least one person presiding on the scene (the one with the buttons).

I follow Hocus's Razor to achieve progress in the direction approaching a scenario that would (finally!) allow production of a computerized collapse model, one that pre-supposes the use of pre-positioned explosives, one that is reproduceable and will survive peer review by experts, those who are not presently under gag or threat (I understand), those on the edge of their field (whatever the story, Professor Jones is a brave man), and perhaps students of engineering who are brave enough to take the risk, or like the people in Flight 93, recognize the consequences of choices made versus fate accepted.

If any wish to pigeonhole me as a 'conspiracy theorist' or a 'proponent of the demolition theory' -- let them check their dictionary definition of conspiracy and fill a few notebook pages detailing conspiracies observed in everyday life. Someone has to think them up; civilization itself is the most amazing conspiracy of all time. Nature happened. People happened. Now people conspire. It's a beautiful, precious (and seriously fun thing). As to demolition, in fact I am just someone following the possibility of demolition until such time as I am personally convinced of a workable scenario -- at which time I will move on to try to fit it -- or give up. Minds change all the time, it is why we are no longer the silly blobs of protoplasm we once were. Or worthy entertainment for a bored Creator, as you prefer.

Why I do not speculate on nukes, exotic energy dissipation weapons, et cetera: much as I would love to, with all due respect to those who do...the Hocus Razor asserts that conventional cutting explosives, even if applied in unprecedented amounts, could do the job. The claims about cell phones not working (EMP etc.) ignore the simple fact that Nort Tower was basically the cell relay for lower Manhattan, and that wonderful Mecca of technology was taken out with the first impact. Cell service was interrupted, cell phones were not destroyed.

Too many devices worked during and after both collapses, including the Naudet brothers' handhelds; to any who may point out that if the brothers are under suspicion, their equipment may have been 'special': I reply 'fireman handheld radios' at ground zero worked, survivors' radios worked since.

Collapses ocurred quietly in the RF spectrum and in the inductive pathways of Ground Zero communication devices. Absolutely no audible 'bzzzt', video flame flicker in Naudet or elsewhere; to those who posit no-radiation, no-EMP, no-problem variants, I say go on, eventually once you have found a way around every 'characteristic' of nuclear explosions... you will have arrived in a place where someone has to fess up and deliver the goods. Those goods, if they exist, are not likely to be delivered via a simple Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. Good luck.

Meanwhile I choose to take the blue pill, and will try to crack this thing from the foundation of reality with which I feel most comfortable. Perhaps we'll meet somewhere in the middle, but 'bon voyage' for now, and please do not think me rude if I simply fail to respond to attempts to engage those areas.


"Don't be late for now."
~ Lily Tomlin as 'Sister Boogie Woman'

When asked what he thought about Western Civilization, Ghandi replies,
"I think it would be a good idea."

__
Some of the greatest musical conspiracy theorists of all time: The Bonzo Dog Band
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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 850
Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:09 am    Post subject: South Tower Collapse scenario v1.0a Reply with quote

South Tower Demolition-Only Scenario v1.0a
"Telescoping below impact point, by attacking perimeter bolts, pushing spandrel plates outward"

MUNITIONS


~ Standard cutting and concussion charges ONLY -- NO thermite or exotics.

PLACEMENT
~ IN CORE: diagonal stripe/blowout sections
+ near ground level ~6FL (above slab)
+ ~10FL below impact
~ ALONG INSIDE OF PERIMETER SECTIONS:
+ all faces, in Sky Lobby III and Mechanical Floor ~ 3 floors == height of perimeter section
~ NO BASEMENT

~ The building itself does all the pulverizing, resulting in 'cold' dust cloud in which engulfed humans survive.
~ ground level and basement in core: below slab, relatively 'quiet', where North Tower survivors found refuge

There may have been more than one button... Building may be leaning initially because perimeter section charges on south, east faces (not shown) were hit first to cause 'plane related' tilt before fall.

Does my scenario work without demolition? I still do not think so; without cutting core in two places, and hitting perimeter all the way round... top of building would have toppled over, but more significantly ruin would be tapered, lots of perimeter intact, core standing. A computer model is necessary.


REFERENCE

http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/south_tower_collapse.mpeg
Collapse video chosen: corner view (looking over St. Paul's: west face to the left, north face to right); MSNBC fixed mount or really good steadycam; 'recorded live' feed, I am not ruling out psyop noise or glass shards but it does have some intersting features which I will list ad nauseum...

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/perimeter.html
Perimeter column section reference
Diagram at left is view from the outside. Spandrel plates were run along the inside; this gave the towers their uninterrupted vertical rising appearance, windows mounted in the aluminum outer cladding. But bear in mind these are sections, each 3 floors high, 3 columns wide. The corners were capped with a spandrel plate flanked by a standalone a column on each side, and a small column running up inside center, inside. In the corners the aluminum cladding was a solid sheet. After ST plane impace we see aluminum corner sheets peeled open at the corners, presumably from the fuel blast; the steel behind them might be fully intact, but its darker color would not be easily discernible in photo and video. Examine the photograph on this page and one can see that corners were important, but overall strength rested in the entire box/cage.design.

EDIT: Jan-2006: To follow the next link, you'll have to 'COPY LINK' into the clipboard, then paste into your address bar, not just direct-click. http://911research.com has decided to redirect to a welcome page if there is a Referer tag. Likely because he's getting too many people plopping his pictures into blogs, which load from his $erver. Which can also be a denial-of-service tactic (remember, choosing to serve inlined images to elsewhere-pages is an Internet courtesy, go easy). Because of this, links to JPGs such as the one below must be copied-and-pasted.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/masterplan/docs/page14.jpg
Master plan NOTE: This is from 1963, general design same but was revised to add a few floors.

SCENARIO

* Floors, Floor Trusses and the Hat Truss were not involved in collapse initiation.

* Core at the ~6FL (near ground level above the slab) cut diagonally, perhaps in two stripes with a concussion wave to clear space around them some 8-10 seconds before visible collapse begins. Building stresses: Hat Truss is now carrying weight of core and inner floors; collapse may be imminent at this point but it would not be a completely disconnected rubble pile.

* Now core is cut ~10 floors below impact point (plenty of margin for pilot error) as collapse begins. Cutting charges placed where horizontal beams intersect. Horizontal beams adjacent to the cut columns are blown outward to clear the way. Some concrete dust is visibly ejected from impact floor.

* While Hat Truss still intact, attack the 'box'. Using small charges, perimeter sections are disconnected right around the tower at their vertical junctions bolts: some at impact point and some floors below. Then milliseconds later, concussion charges mounted on the inside of spandral plates 'push' the now-disconnected lower perimeter sections outward while the top is beginning its 3 story free fall.

NOTE: since the charges used to cut the bolts are behind the cladding... and the concussion charges are mounted on the inside of those thick steel spandrel plates, designed to push them outwards not shatter or cut them.... direct flashes from these charges would tend to be hidden in straight-on views.of the tower. They might be more visible in diagonal views; or to someone standing near the corner of the building almost directly below... or visible from one below as reflections off of ceiling and cladding.

* Now we have a box falling within a box. The leading vertical edge of the upper floor's perimeter sections -- still attached -- is slicing downwards like a sharp knife, disconnecting floors and trusses as it goes. When floors meet they will meet explosively. This is not a one floor falling on another scenario, the connected mass of the entire upper third of the building is applying the force here, via the still-connected upper floors. It is no surprise then that the upper floors are disconnecting, but they do not disconnect immediately.

* The core is now in three pieces. Only ~6FL and below is connected to bedrock.

* The core from top of building down to ~10FL below impact point is still bound to the Hat Truss, is now a free-falling stiletto in a sheath. This contributes for the odd symmetrical 'centering' effect observed in the first few seconds of collapse.

* Perimeter sections falling inside the visible skin of the building, along with the pressure wave, is causing the visible squiblike ejecta a few floors below the cloud. Towards the bottom, distance between visible demolition cloud and squiblike eject increases because there is not just pressure, there are more vertical sections of steel coming down 'inside' the tower.

* Connected by bolts and welds so they are mostly disconnected but still tend to fall vertically -- all the steel that once encircled the outside of the upper half of the building is being gathered inwards, contained by the lower building's still-connected perimeter. Perimeter thickness increases towards the base, so while we have more strength to 'contain' it, remember that they are bolted sections too... the thickest perimeter walls are being pressed outward. No bomb in the basement required.

* The entire conflaguration is enveloped in cloud now; those 'free-fall' arguments were always based on some sort of estimation of when things settled. But in fact, not all of the South Tower settled.

On the video, go fullscreen and mark the place where the aluminum is visibly peeled at the building's corner. Roll the video, forward, around frame 306 you will notice just a bit to the right something is amidst the rolling dust cloud that is not moving. This is another view of the 'spire', which seems to be a piece of core with shattered vertical elements -- sheared columns not rebar, I do not think rebar would be so visible at this distance To ensure that no 'interior tapered ruin' is left was the purpose of cutting the core at ~6FL. The spire topples, having been held aloft during the collapse by the pressure wave symmetrically surrounding it.

As evidenced by the spire's 'gentle' fall, the lobby may be flat but beneath the slab would be a small bubble of intact stairwell space; if North Tower follows the same model it would allow survival of humans in the core below the slab, as actually happened.
____

Addendum: In full awareness of 'divide and conquer techniques in common use, let me state for the record that my scenario was developed before I went looking for flashes, not the other war 'round. There is a steep incline in the burden of proof here, specifically that of falling glass panes versus the brief glimmer of 'explosive charges', I won't be the last but let me be the first to say it...! Much more hinges on the procurement of high quality vantage points at their greatest possible resolution, and especially the computer model, then any single 'this is the way it was' document.

Now the fun part. Video frames relative to zero. The darker band is the mechanical floor. If they followed the plan it is 26' high (call it 2 storeys). Sky lobby zone III floor immediately above the dark band.

Frame 89 ~ FLAME APPEARS, Sky lobby (right above dark band) NW corner: visible until Frame 122 when it is obscured by smoke. Probably just flame oxygenated by sudden wind pressure from within building.

Frame 57 ~ Tilt to left just beginning. At Lobby+9FL on closest (NE) corner note light smoke emitted. Core has been cut below impact point or something else?

Frame 88 CONCUSSION IN SKY LOBBY III: Explosive spout of smoke just beginning to emerge.

Frame 103 FLASH, East face, Ceiling of Mechanical Room ~20 feet from corner (width of two perimeter sections) that's a 'charge to shear bolts.' It is not slowly tumbling glass because next frame it will be completely gone.

Frame 104 FLASH, ONE FRAME LATER. Lobby+12Floors (3 sections): North face, near corner. Very bright. Likely on same trigger as Frame 103.

Frame 125 TWO FLASHES SAME FRAME. One Ceiling of Mechanical Room ~40 feet from corner (2 sections left from the one in Frame 103). ANOTHER FLASH East face, just to left of center, 3 floors below Mechanical floor (which MIGHT be video compression artifact, OR those slightly lighter spots around it may be simultaneous flashes)

Frame 126 FLASH. Ceiling of Mechanical Room, ~10 feet to left of Frame 125. Flip back and forth between Frames 125 and 126 until you see that Ceiling of Mechanical Room has two distinct flashes: right then left. Camera is approaching its white point on the face down below, less confidence in that one.

Frame 135 FLASH, Below floor of Mechanical Room. It has 'sharp contrast' right edge due to the zoning of video compression, but that doesn't necessarily mean the flash is not made of 'real' photons..

Frame 136 FLASH. Ceiling of Mechanical Room, almost directly above. Page between 135 and 136; slight hint of one (one frame only) below dark spot of falling debris.


Frame 145 FLASH Floor of Mechanical Room again.

Frame 171 FLASH. North Face (very bright). Flashes are no longer strictly anomalous because collapse is well under way, top tilt very pronounced ... but according to this scenario just a few perimeter sections need bolt disconnect -- the main objective is the concussive 'push' charges on spandel plates; in order to start 'containing' the heavy elements. It is possible the steel is just beginning to push through concrete right at the point of the flash.

Frame 173 FLASH. Bright, North face, Ceiling of Mechanical Floor, SE corner (all the way left)

Frame 186 FLASH. Bright, North face, directly above spire of St. Paul's. This is 'on the way down'

At this point the inital demolition zone is obscured in a cloud of debris and there are many flashes -- tumbling glass; notice the persistent tinkle of tumbling glass sparkles as opposed to the "now you see it now you don't" of the artifacts I have labelled FLASH.

___

SEEK AND YOU WILL FIND I hope. Be assured I also hate those pod people excercises where you're told to see poop that isn't there. Or it is there and looks like poop. I went frame by frame through a lot of dark and light smoke looking for evidence that the whole Universe on that day, accoring to this feed, is rigged with cutting charges and did not seem to see any. I even know what ghosting, print-through and spinning helical head glitches look like and where in the frame to look for the next one. I see one in the mirror right now. None of those either, though they seem to like them on German TV on 9/11. It's not a PAL/NTSC thing, it's a time to buy new tapes thing...

Send me a PM if the frame numbers do not work for you: what tool you're using -- and if the number are off by in some linear way, tell me the offset. I used Virtualdub to extract a sequence of .BMP images, paged through them with ACDSEE viewer full screen.

This video feed + mpeg encoding seems ok and slightly above average quality. A handheld Spiegel blurry and closeup also had flashes, but the operator is interested in following the wave so the world keeps moving. This one has clunky compression, a bit of hue confusion and momentary pixelation as one expects from encoded video -- MSNBC probably has a no-compression native recording of this, maybe even HDTV.

Generally when looking for airbrushed pods or flying saucers, expect a certain amount of CCD 'dwell' in time, seen as a slight shimmer to the right of a bright contrasty area -- this is the CCD element being 'surprised' by the contrast change, before it has had a chance to adjust. But you will almost never see this 'shimmer'to the left, in video scan-line lingo that's known as fortune telling, and can be a sign you've been 'had'. ;-)

Could it be a psyop construct? Sure. Could the original be faked by inductive wishing ray and satellite drop-in intercept amalogmated hookah dark fiber cherry picking pipeline, with agnostic rediffusion... well... uh, what was the question again?

___
"...They was taking plaster tire tracks, foot prints, dog smelling prints, and they took twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against us. Took pictures of the approach, the getaway, the northwest corner the southwest corner and that's not to mention the aerial photography..."


Last edited by Hocus Locus on Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:01 pm; edited 6 times in total
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