|
| :: Previous topic :: Next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Fintan
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3890
|
 Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: Pakistan Crisis Latest (incl. Marriot Blast) |
  |
|
Marriot Blast a
Failed CIA Psych Op
by Fintan Dunne, Editor
BreakForNews.com - 21st September, 2008
Well, the 'terrorist' blast in Pakistan clearly shows that Sarah Palin
was right to insist that US Forces could make incursions into Pakistan to
defeat Al-Qaida. 
It's just a coincidence that the issue came up in her first TV interview,
by the way. Total coincidence.
| Quote: |  GIBSON: Do we have the right to be making
cross-border attacks into Pakistan
from Afghanistan, with or without the
approval of the Pakistani government?
PALIN: I believe that America has to exercise all
options in order to stop the terrorists who are hell bent
on destroying America and our allies. We have got to
have all options out there on the table.
Link |
But surely no coincidence that the blast happened just hours after the new
Pakistani president --the widower of the assassinated Benazir Bhutto--
was declaring that US incursions into his country's sovereign territory
would not be allowed. Regardless of the genuineness of his stand.
The media are still spelling Al-CIAda incorrectly.
But you don't have to spell out the implicit message.
| Quote: | A suicide bomb attack that killed 53 people at the Marriott Hotel in
Pakistan's capital bore the hallmarks of an operation by al Qaeda or an
affiliate, Pakistani and U.S. intelligence officials said on Sunday.
"The sophistication of the blast shows it's the work of al Qaeda,"
a Pakistani intelligence officer told Reuters.
http://www.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUSLK254398._CH_.2400 |
No. The sophistication of the blast shows it's the work of CIA/ISI.
There are reports that some in Pakistan's government got wind that a
bomb plot was underway to take out the new Government --and they
moved a top level political dinner to a new location.
If this attack had succeeded, it would have deeply destabilized Pakistan
and sent a message to the Pakistanis who had successfully ousted
Musharraf. (It would also have greatly benefitted McCain/Palin.)
| Quote: | Malik confirmed that the administration had prior warning of the
suicide bombers targeting Parliament House on the occasion of President
Zardari’s address to the joint session of Parliament.
Malik acknowledged that it was a well-planned assault targeting
nation’s top civil and military leadership, which had gathered
under one roof, first to listen to President Asif Zardari’s maiden
address to the joint session of Parliament in the afternoon and then at the
iftar reception hosted by speaker of the National Assembly Dr Famida
Mirza. The speaker shifted the venue from the sprawling lawns of
Parliament House to the adjacent more secure Prime Minister’s
House in view of the warning.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080922/main4.htm |
Another report confirms this, but has a different take included:
| Quote: | Leaders of Pakistan Were Targets of Blast
Terrorists planned to hit prime minister house
or parliament but security was too tight
Muhammad Aslam Khan - 2008-09-22
...Key figures of the country were attending a dinner at Prime Minister
House after a joint session of the parliament. The terrorists planned
to wipe out the top political and military leadership, Gilani added.
Striking a different note, Interior Minister Rehman Malik insisted that
the luxury Marriott Hotel was the target of the blast.
Link |
So, the Prime Minister says the the houses of parliament, but the
Interior Minister is saying the Marriot was the intended target.
I don't believe it was.
I will argue that in a moment, but first....
Take a look at the sheer size of the crater:
| Quote: |  |
And take a look at the video of the truck:
The heavily-laden truck lurches as it rounds the turn before the
security barriers, and then it bends the barrier but lacks the
momentum to force it's way through.
That's why the barrier is so close to the turn --to rob any vehicle of
sufficient momentum to get through. And note the central 'island'
against which the barrier is braced. All that is good security design.
It saved the hotel a calamitous total collapse.
| Quote: | Pakistan Bomb That Killed 53 Aimed to Destroy Hotel
By James Rupert
Sept. 21 (Bloomberg) -- The truck bomb that killed 53 people in the
Pakistani capital Islamabad yesterday tried to smash its way through
the Marriott hotel's entry barricades in a bid to bring the building down,
security camera footage showed.
The driver's actions and the size of the bomb indicated that the attacker
meant to ram the truck into the building and pull down the six-story
structure, Malik said. When the truck's main charge erupted, the blast
shattered the facade and interior, and ignited fires that gutted the
building. Hundreds of guests and hotel staff escaped when the building
failed to collapse.
The truck was packed with high-grade TNT, trinitrotoluene, or RDX,
cyclotrimethylene-trinitramine, a military explosive, said Malik, as well
as mortar bombs, artillery shells and an incendiary aluminum powder. He
described the bomb as the biggest ever used in a terrorist attack in Pakistan.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=aXrwOZ9BhAe4&refer=india |
If the truck had got through, the casualties would have been in the
hundreds. And if the Marriot had been the primary target, the
truck would have got through. Here's why.
| Quote: |  |
Note the claimed use of RDX and TNT. It's a reasonable claim
because the blast crater bears testimony to high power explosive.
To me, that means professional intelligence involvement. And
professionals didn't go to these lengths to kill mostly low-level
Pakistani security guards.
Even with the power of the blast, the barrier was always going
to stop that truck --and a low casualty toll would not inflict a deep
enough PsyOp effect on Pakistan.
So, if the Marriot had been the prime target, professionals would have
found a way to circumvent the security barrier. Here's how.
Have an accomplice drive up to the barrier in an SUV-style vehicle.
When the SUV is cleared through, the driver would deliberately
stall underneath the barrier, preventing it from lowering.
Then when the truck comes around the corner it would sweep the
barrier --and the SUV-- aside and proceed on to demolish the Marriot.
The lack of such professional preparation in the Marriot attack tells
me that the Marriot was a backup target.
Only the last-minute change of the evening dinner to a new location
saved the top echelon of Pakistan from a devestating psychological
blow which would certainly have plunged the country into irreversible
political instability.
The CIA will make the most of it, but the effect is far, far short of
that which was desired. And the element of surprise is now lost.
Despite the casualties, this attack was
an operational failure for the CIA/ISI.
I wrote already of the double-cross which saw Benazir Bhutto lured back to
Pakistan to be gunned down to enable the CIA's destabilization agenda.
Benazir Bhutto's widower, President Zardari and the still pro-US Pakistani
elite should ponder the implications of the fact that they might have been
among the casualties if the bomb had been delivered to it's intended
target.
"Fool me once." Indeed.
And the CIA fooling their Pakistani friends twice,
would make this a double-double-cross.
Here's a tip.
Never, never trust an intellegence agency.
| Quote: |  |
Moving on to more peripheral issues, questions have been raised about
the ability of the truck to penetrate the high-security area of the Marriot in
the first place:
| Quote: | Hotel owner Sadruddin Hashwani said.... police should have
stopped the truck used by the bomber from entering the high-security
"red zone" in the heart of Islamabad where the hotel is located.
Rehman Malik, who heads the interior ministry, said 1,000 kg of
explosives were packed in the truck and hidden under sand and stones.
Prime Minister Gilani said the bomber succeeded in bringing the truck into
the high-security area saying that he was carrying construction materials.
http://news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1668716 |
These questions are at least partially answered by the following:
| Quote: | the Prime Minister said elaborate security arrangements were
made on the occasion of joint sitting of the Parliament and there was no
security lapse. He said movement of trucks is allowed after sunset for
carrying the construction material and terrorists chose this time to attack
the hotel.
http://pakobserver.net/200809/22/news/topstories10.asp |
The Pakistani government has rejected FBI assistance. Good call.
| Quote: | The adviser said Pakistan would not ask American FBI to
investigate this attack. "We do not need any help and reject this offer.
We (Pakistani security agencies) are capable enough to carry out
investigation", he added.
Link |
There are also at least some intelligence personnel casualties.
| Quote: | Danish agent feared dead after Islamabad attack
A Danish national reported missing following Saturday's
terrorist attack in Islamabad was an intelligence agent.
A Danish Security and Intelligence Service (PET) agent is reported
missing following Saturday’s terrorist attack against the Hotel
Marriott in Islamabad, according to an official confirmation from the
intelligence service.
The service says that one of those killed is a person who could be a PET
agent and the service is currently waiting for definite identification.
The agent was in Islamabad as a security adviser to the Danish Embassy
and was at or close to the Marriott Hotel when Saturday’s suicide terrorist
explosion took place.
http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article570720.ece |
| Quote: | At least two Americans killed in Pakistan hotel blast
ASSOCIATED PRESS - September 21, 2008
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - The U.S. Embassy in Pakistan is confirming the
death of two Pentagon employees in the truck bombing of the
Marriott Hotel in Islamabad.
A third American who works as a contractor for the State Department
is still unaccounted for.
Link |
_________________
Minds are like parachutes.
They only function when open.
Last edited by Fintan on Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:59 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Fintan
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3890
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm not endorsing this article by any means.
It's Spin City out there, but this adds a lot of local
color to the story.
Read the comments too.
| Quote: | Islamabad Marriot Hotel Attack
It's Time To End Pakistani Role In America’s War
Sunday, 21 September 2008 10:24
Ahmed Quraishi - www.daily.pk
Pakistan is being punished for refusing to allow U.S. military boots on
Pakistani soil, for the bombings in India, for the July 7 attack on the
Indian embassy in Kabul, and for the failures of the American military in
Afghanistan. The attack is a clear message to the Pakistani ruling elite:
We will bring the war to your home.
The Americans are now accusing army chief Gen. Ashfaq Kayani of
complicity in bombing the Indian embassy in Kabul, an accusation that
even the Indians dared not make. The General is a suspicious man now in
the eyes of the Americans and the Zardari government. After its bungled
attempt on the ISI, there is a possibility that the pro-U.S. Zardari
government might try to remove Gen. Kayani and replace him with a
more pliant army chief who can subordinate the Pakistani military to
Washington’s agenda in the region. To end this mess, Pakistan needs to
say goodbye to the coalition that Washington assembled in 2001 to
occupy Afghanistan, a coalition that has shrunk in seven years to only
U.S., U.K. and Pakistan.
The massive attack on the Marriott hotel in the heart of the federal
Pakistani capital is a punishment for Pakistan for refusing to allow U.S.
military boots on Pakistani soil, for the bombings in India, for the July 7
attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul, and for the failures of the
American military in Afghanistan.
The attack is a clear message to the Pakistani ruling elite: We will bring
the war to your home; we will convince you and the world that your
situation is worse than Iraq and Afghanistan and that you are unable to
handle it alone and need foreign intervention.
Pakistan stands accused of attacks in both Afghanistan and India. The
Americans have gone as far as blaming Pakistan in advance for future
attacks against United States.
In fact, in a calculated leak, The New York Times on Sept. 11 accused
Pakistani army chief Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani of complicity in the July 7
bombing of the Indian embassy in Kabul, something that even the Indians
didn’t dare do. And on Sept. 7, President Bush delivered a speech at the
National Defense University in Washington where he almost called
Pakistan a terrorist state.
The Americans had hoped that the pro-U.S. Zardari government in Islamabad would move to neutralize or disband the ISI and check the Pakistani military. They waited enough. The Zardari government did make a failed attempt on July 27 to clip the wings of ISI, which would have ended the agency’s external counterintelligence operations, crucial for the world’s sixth declared nuclear power and an important regional power that has legitimate security and strategic interests to protect. But it seems Mr. Zardari has decided not to risk alienating the country’s powerful military. Hours before the attack, President Zardari told a joint session of Parliament “We will not tolerate the violation of our sovereignty and territorial integrity by any power in the name of combating terrorism.” This statement ended the confusion, at least for now, on Zardari’s apparent reluctance to endorse army chief Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani’s stern warning to Washington not to attack Pakistani soil.
The punishment for Pakistan is not limited to the Marriot hotel, which was more of a symbolic target, close to the houses of the President, Prime Minister, federal ministers and senior federal bureaucrats. Hours earlier, explosives-laden cars attacked two military convoys in the tribal belt. Eight hours after the Marriot attack, the power grid in Swat, northern Pakistan, was blown up. The frequency and intensity of attacks inside Pakistan have exceeded the attacks that U.S. military is facing in Afghanistan.
Which is in itself a strange thing. If the U.S. accusations are true and Islamabad is behind Afghan Taliban’s resurgence in Afghanistan, then why are the ‘Pakistani Taliban’ attacking Pakistani military targets? They should be happy that Pakistan is allegedly supporting the Afghan Taliban? But what is happening is the opposite: The so-called ‘Pakistani Taliban’ is punishing Pakistan, exclusively. The question is: Who benefits?
According to one Pakistani source, there are close to 8,000 foreigners in the country’s tribal belt at the moment. Before 9/11, they were under 1,000, and most of them were peaceful leftovers from the anti-Soviet war in the 1980s, grownup, aging, with local wives and children. Yes, Pakistan did have a domestic religious extremism problem but it consisted of small groups and not armies with endless supplies of money and sophisticated weapons and, apparently, advance knowledge of Pakistani military movements.
There is no question that many of these 8,000 foreigners are agents of foreign intelligence agencies who have infiltrated the Pakistani tribal belt from Afghanistan. This is not Hollywood. During the 2001 war against the Taliban government in Kabul, U.S. military used special ops teams made up of Pashtun look-alikes complete with perfect Pashtun accents, assisted by local help, purchased in U.S. dollars, in the areas of their deployment.
In Pakistani tribal belt, the numbers of foreigners dramatically increased in the years 2002 to 2004. These foreigners used the natural local anger at Pakistani military’s alliance with U.S. to work up the locals against Islamabad. The area remained quiet for most of the time after the 2001 war until it finally erupted in insurgency led by a series of ‘rebel Mullahs’ who caught the Pakistani government and military by surprise.
Karzai’s security and intelligence network is populated with strongly anti-Pakistan officers. The Indians received an American nod to establish an elaborate intelligence and military training setup in Afghanistan. Indians and Karzai’s men are directly involved in training, arming and financing rebels and insurgents and sending them into Pakistan. There is a full backing for an ethnic insurgency in southwestern Pakistan where China is building a strategic seaport. There are reports that the Israeli intelligence, the Mossad, is helping the Indians and Karzai’s security in destabilizing Pakistan’s western parts. The Israeli ambassador in New Delhi admitted in February that Israel offered crucial help to India during the Kargil war in 1999 which was the only reason India managed to repeal what appeared to be a surprise Pakistani victory. The Israelis have built a close defense relationship with India ever since and are also helping India perfect its occupation methods in Kashmir.
Pakistanis don’t have evidence that shows direct U.S. involvement in this anti-Pakistan campaign. But the circumstantial evidence is more than overwhelming. Afghanistan could not have turned into a staging ground for anti-Pakistan covert operations involving several players with out Washington’s nod. U.S. military has also been deliberately attacking those militant tribals inside Pakistan who are pro-Islamabad, and sparing those militants who only fight Pakistani military. Also, U.S. government has refused to designate the ethnic insurgency in southwestern Pakistan as terrorism. One very interesting piece of information that points the fingers to both India and U.S. is that these shady ‘Pakistani Taliban’ have focused their efforts in the past four years on attacking Chinese citizens and Chinese interests inside Pakistan. No U.S. or NATO citizens have been attacked.
The Afghan Taliban –who are the real Taliban before this American-orchestrated insurgency in Pakistani border areas was deceptively termed ‘Taliban’ – have never attacked Pakistan despite Islamabad’s policy change after 9/11. In fact, senior Taliban officials, like its ambassador to Islamabad Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, never said anything against Pakistan despite having been captured and handed over to the Americans by Islamabad.
There is no question that Washington destabilized Pakistan using the same methods it had perfected in South America in the 1970s. As Pakistan faced instability on the border, Washington moved in late 2006 to destabilize the country from the inside. A discredit former prime minister, Benazir Bhutto, was convinced to end her self-exile and enter into a U.S.-brokered deal with a weakened President Musharraf in exchange for endorsing the U.S. agenda and having her stolen millions whitewashed. The fast paced political change threw Pakistan off-balance and resulted in massive internal upheaval that continues until today, almost ending Pakistan’s remarkable economic rise of the past decade.
Once Pakistan was trapped, U.S. media sprung into action and mounted a massive propaganda about Pakistan becoming ripe for an Iraq-like U.S. intervention to neutralize its nuclear weapons and to ‘save’ the country from turning into a haven for al-Qaeda.
The entire purpose of this anti-Pakistan campaign is to remove the Pakistani hurdle that stands in the way of Washington’s plans for the region: China, Russia, Central Asia and Iran, and also to help pave the way for India to assume a bigger role, which it can’t in the presence of Pakistan. This is what the planners in Washington might be thinking. The Indian thinking, however, is more short term. India is more interested in disorienting Pakistan and using all possible opportunities to make hurt Pakistanis and deprive Islamabad of any strategic advantage, whether in Afghanistan or with regards to the Chinese-built seaport near the Gulf.
WHAT ISLAMABAD CAN DO
Pakistan will continue to face instability as long as it continues to be part of the war on terror on Washington’s terms. Pakistan’s legitimate security interests have been so damaged and ignored by Washington that it is time to tell the Americans to go and deal with Afghanistan on their own. This is the only way for Islamabad to regain respect in the eyes of its own people. Pakistan can say that it will help Washington where possible but that it is no longer part of the coalition that Washington assembled to occupy Afghanistan 2001, a coalition that only includes three nations now: U.S., U.K., and Pakistan. In this regard, Pakistanis can renegotiate the terms of letting U.S. use Pakistani soil and airspace for the transport of supplies. Pakistan can ask U.S. military to vacate the remaining Pakistani airbase under American use. Also, Islamabad can revoke the permission that former President Musharraf granted CIA to establish outposts in Pakistan’s tribal belt and the permission to recruit local assets. Meanwhile, Pakistan can continue eliminating the shady foreign and local criminals who call themselves ‘Pakistani Taliban’. This is what the Pakistani military has been doing recently, wiping off all these foreign assets. Which probably explains some of the recent American panic.
This way Pakistan can regain some of the stability and also the confidence of other countries in the region, especially China which has been watching with concern how Islamabad has allowed itself to be dragged by Washington into this mess.
KAYANI’S FUTURE
Of immediate interest is how the Zardari government will balance its strong pro-U.S. stance with the military’s resolve to stop U.S. belligerence. Mr. Zardari did try to please Washington by his risky July 27 move on ISI. But now, with Gen. Kayani’s strong statements, it is fair to say that the army chief might become the new target of American’s and this government’s anger. There is a possibility that Mr. Zardari might try to replace the army chief, using powers that Mr. Musharraf left in the hands of the new president. Gen. Kayani is the last standing roadblock in Zardari government’s way to seize control of the military and spy agencies and subordinate them to U.S. policy interests in the region.
COMMENTS
Jeevan September 21, 2008
Ahmed Mr Zardari is responsible for this he is behind this joining u.s. and
india, inviting u.s.a to attack pak. ZAardari is sold out to the highest
bidder. Geo Musharraf.
Ahmed September 21, 2008
You are doing excelllent job. your analysis far superior to others at this
time. No one is touching what u are saying. Some of your arguments are
very compelling. However your analysis is tainted by being a appologist
for Mush who is responsible for this mess. If he had not allowed access to
local assests then perhaps we could have avoided this or had better
intelligence when he was making deal with Mehsud and others he should
have thought of it. I agree with you that we are trapped because
economically we are dead that is biggest dilema. In addition, Mush
became an appologist for India and let them have free reign in
Baluchistan and tribal area and sold the Kashmiri so let us not forget
where the ultimate blames lies. He was the person who sold taleban and
his own people for peanuts.
Raj September 21, 2008
Mr Ahmed Quraishi seems to have written an good article. Pakistan needs
new direction. Pakistan has reached this impasse, because of Pakistan's
enmity with India. I think, Pakistanis must ask themselves, how things
would change, if Pakistan would one day become India's best friends
instead of the worst enemy?
For one thing, Pakistan would be able to get the US Tiger off its back for
once and for all times. Pakistan would again start becoming prosperous
through increased trade. There would be no need to keep the militant
groups as some sort of hedging strategy against India, so Pakistan would
be able to manage the transition to a society at peace better. Until
Pakistan does not make this strategic decision and its Army doesn't
change its direction, Pakistan will remain in the quicksands.
Manpreet Singh September 21, 2008
Just on the eve of Pakistan’s new democratic president Asif Ali Zardari’s
joint session address, scrooge of terrorism struck in Islamabad’s most
sensitive area not too far away from the President House. I am so angry I
don’t want to even discuss how many died and how many got injured, I
just want to tell you that I died but living again to condemn the terrorism
in its every form.
Bloody Talibans or any other bloody militant outfit hasn’t got the
firepower or resources to carry out such a grand attack on such a big
scale. It’s not easy to manage such thing in the mountains of Tora Bora,
and it’s ridiculous to even believe that any half-wit illiterate Baitullah
Mehsud is behind such attack.
India is all over the place in sponsoring and managing terrorism in
Pakistan. These attacks are just one another attacks in the series. India is
funding the elements in FATA, Balochistan and other areas and it’s Mukti
Bahni gurellas are carrying out such attack.
Pakistan must retaliate. Pakistan must retaliate. Coward India must not
let be free hand on Pakistan.
asim September 21, 2008
Over 50 dead. Over 200 injured. The Marriott destroyed. One more
consequence of being a frontline state in the War on Terror. Whose war
is this anyway?…
Link |
_________________
Minds are like parachutes.
They only function when open. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bonzelite
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 14
Location: so-cal
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
so what are you saying...
you say by the size of the crater that professionals were invovled, then you say because of the inability of the truck to penetrate the security gate, professionals were not involved.
what are you trying to say? you cannot have both.
_________________
in-n-out burger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EddieT
Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 355
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bonzelite wrote: | so what are you saying...
you say by the size of the crater that professionals were invovled, then you say because of the inability of the truck to penetrate the security gate, professionals were not involved.
what are you trying to say? you cannot have both. |
what he is saying is that because professionals were most certainly involved, the failure of the attack to break the security gate meant that the hotel was not the primary target, but a backup target. If it was the primary target, professionals would have definitely found a way to get through the gate.
_________________
"Man is the only creature who refuses to be what he is"- Albert Camus |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bonzelite
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 14
Location: so-cal
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
so the hotel was at once the primary target but.... the CIA got intel about the change of dinner venue (but they didn't know where it changed to)....then the hotel was blown up anyway as a Psy Op? As a sort of "consolation prize" or "runner up Psy Op?"
pardon my density or confusion but I'm trying to follow the chain of assumptions.....
_________________
in-n-out burger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rick Dagless
Joined: 11 Apr 2008
Posts: 104
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bonzelite wrote: | so what are you saying...
you say by the size of the crater that professionals were invovled, then you say because of the inability of the truck to penetrate the security gate, professionals were not involved.
what are you trying to say? you cannot have both. |
I think both can be true. Pros set up an attack on government leaders at a location and have the whole attack planned out including penetrating security barriers by crashing through them with a heavy truck.
Then they find out the government leaders have picked another location for the meeting that is impregnable or impossible to reach so a quick decision is made to attack a secondary target that will still have a huge psychological impact. They pick the Marriott.
Since the Marriott was not their primary target they hadn't accounted for the barrier stopping the truck. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bonzelite
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 14
Location: so-cal
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rick Dagless wrote: | | bonzelite wrote: | so what are you saying...
you say by the size of the crater that professionals were invovled, then you say because of the inability of the truck to penetrate the security gate, professionals were not involved.
what are you trying to say? you cannot have both. |
I think both can be true. Pros set up an attack on government leaders at a location and have the whole attack planned out including penetrating security barriers by crashing through them with a heavy truck.
Then they find out the government leaders have picked another location for the meeting that is impregnable or impossible to reach so a quick decision is made to attack a secondary target that will still have a huge psychological impact. They pick the Marriott.
Since the Marriott was not their primary target they hadn't accounted for the barrier stopping the truck. |
But I don't think you're totally following my premise (or my lack of understanding perhaps): The original post states that the dinner was changed at the last minute. Therefore, the hotel was at one point the primary target because there was a dinner there.
Is this correct or not?
If the upper eschelon of Pakistan was having dinner there, then the hotel was the primary target the whole time.
_________________
in-n-out burger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rick Dagless
Joined: 11 Apr 2008
Posts: 104
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="bonzelite"][quote="Rick Dagless"] | bonzelite wrote: |
But I don't think you're totally following my premise (or my lack of understanding perhaps): The original post states that the dinner was changed at the last minute. Therefore, the hotel was at one point the primary target because there was a dinner there.
Is this correct or not?
If the upper eschelon of Pakistan was having dinner there, then the hotel was the primary target the whole time. |
Heh, now I'm confused. 
I got from the blurbs that Fintan posted that the original attack was planned to kill government leaders at the "Parliament House":
| Quote: | The speaker shifted the venue from the sprawling lawns of
Parliament House to the adjacent more secure Prime Minister’s
House in view of the warning. |
I presumed that the Parliament House would have been the planned target and that whoever planned the attack chose the Marriott as a secondary after they learned that the government leaders met at the Prime Minister's House instead. I presumed that that maybe the Prime Minister's House wasn't something that could be attacked.
Could be me that's not getting it. I'm dense that way sometimes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bonzelite
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 14
Location: so-cal
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Rick Dagless"][quote="bonzelite"] | Rick Dagless wrote: | | bonzelite wrote: |
But I don't think you're totally following my premise (or my lack of understanding perhaps): The original post states that the dinner was changed at the last minute. Therefore, the hotel was at one point the primary target because there was a dinner there.
Is this correct or not?
If the upper eschelon of Pakistan was having dinner there, then the hotel was the primary target the whole time. |
Heh, now I'm confused.
I got from the blurbs that Fintan posted that the original attack was planned to kill government leaders at the "Parliament House":
| Quote: | The speaker shifted the venue from the sprawling lawns of
Parliament House to the adjacent more secure Prime Minister’s
House in view of the warning. |
I presumed that the Parliament House would have been the planned target and that whoever planned the attack chose the Marriott as a secondary after they learned that the government leaders met at the Prime Minister's House instead. I presumed that that maybe the Prime Minister's House wasn't something that could be attacked.
Could be me that's not getting it. I'm dense that way sometimes. |
LOL
here's to us both being dense!
At any rate, the fact that the blast detonated such a huge crater, and that it did create terror, is good to go for a PsyOps event, indeed.
When Bhutto was taken out, I wasn't even really surprised even though when I heard of it I was shocked. I was shocked but not surprised. I think she knew she would die.
The state of the world is fu cking depressing.
_________________
in-n-out burger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atm
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 2695
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Explosive craters are caused two ways:
a) aerial ordnance whether missile or bomb
b) a planted, underground device
A truck bomb cannot make a crater: the explosion would go to atmosphere. Basic physics.
There is more to this attack than meets the eye. That is a massive crater. Memories of OKC and the Bali bombing spring to mind.
| Quote: |
The truck was packed with high-grade TNT, trinitrotoluene, or RDX,
cyclotrimethylene-trinitramine, a military explosive, said Malik, as well
as mortar bombs, artillery shells and an incendiary aluminum powder.
|
How could Rehman Malik, security advisor to Prime Minister Gilani, know all of the various, some exotic, ordnance used so soon? Fishy. Very, very fishy.
| Quote: |
'Pakistan's 9/11'
http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/topstories.php?id=130813
22 September 2008
Islamabad - At least 60 people were killed and around 200, including some foreigners, injured Saturday in a suicide bomb attack on the five-star Marriott hotel in Pakistan's capital.
"This is terrorism and we have to fight it together as a nation," Rehman Malik, security advisor to Prime Minister Gilani told reporters at the blast scene in Islamabad.
He linked the attack with the ongoing military operation and said the offensive against the insurgents would continue.
"This is the 9/11 of Pakistan and a desperate effort to terrorise people in which lives of innocent people are lost," said Law Minister Farooq Naek, whose official residence was also partially damaged by the blast.
Witnesses said a vehicle approached the main entrance of the hotel and blew up at about 7:30 pm local time (8:30pm Thailand time, 1330 GMT), severely damaging the five-storey building, where hundreds of people had been staying.
Islamabad police chief Asghar Raza Gardezi confirmed that 50 people were killed and more than 200 injured in the blast. He warned the death toll could rise drastically as many of the injured were in critical condition.
A number of people, including children, also appeared to be trapped in the building, which is located in a high-security zone little more than a kilometre from the residencies of Pakistan's prime minister and president.
An eyewitness told Geo news channel that a car stopped near the security barrier at the main entrance of the hotel and a person came out, telling the security guards that they had three minutes to run away from the site.
The man then drove away and minutes later a truck hit the security barrier. A small explosion apparently triggered other explosives which then caused a massive blast that left a crater about 9 metres deep.
A security official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the deadly vehicle was a truck loaded with around a ton of explosives.
The blast was so heavy that people were blown off chairs in buildings more than half a kilometre away, and the glass windows of several buildings shattered.
Four of the five stories of the hotel caught fire after the blast, which could be heard kilometres away.
People were trapped in the gutted building and fire brigade vehicles were trying to extinguish the blaze. Military troops were also called in to assist the relief efforts.
"Two children were seen crying for help from a window in the top floor. But minutes later, before the fire brigade could start working, smoke and fire spread everywhere. Those children are not sighted any more," a reporter for the DawnNews channel said.
The owner of the hotel, a Mr Hashwani, said many of the guests had been evacuated through the rear entrance but some remained trapped.
The blast created panic at the prime minister's house, where Premier Yousaf Raza Gilani was hosting a dinner to break the Ramadan fast. President Asif Ali Zardari and military chief Ishfaq Parvez Kayani were also among the guests, DawnNews reported.
No one has claimed responsibility for the blast, but Taliban militants based in the country's tribal areas along the Afghan border have carried out a series of suicide bombings across Pakistan over the past 18 months.
The blast occurred on the same day on which the country's new president Zardari vowed before parliament to "root out terrorism and extremism" in Pakistan.
Aaj news channel reported that seven foreigners were among those killed. A medical officer at Islamabad's Polyclinic said three injured US and Danish diplomats were being treated there.
The German Foreign Ministry confirmed six German nationals were slightly wounded, but said it was not certain that no German nationals were killed.
"The (German) foreign office is pursuing all indications. However, so far we cannot confirm that there are any German fatalities," a German foreign ministry spokeswoman told dpa.
One Danish diplomat was officially confirmed injured by the Danish foreign ministry, which said several Danes had been staying at the hotel. Local hospital sources corrected earlier Pakistani media reports that had said one Dane was among the dead. A Danish person was still being treated in a local hospital, medical sources told dpa.
The Saudi Ambassador to Pakistan, Ali Awadh Asseri, said 16 Saudi nationals were in the hotel at the time and four to six of them remained missing.
The Marriott bombing was the third suspected militant attack on Saturday. Earlier, a car suicide bomber targeted a military convoy in the tribal district of North Waziristan at around 11:30 am (0530 GMT), killing three soldiers and three civilians, army spokesman Major Murad Khan told dpa.
Around six hours later, a roadside bomb explosion hit another army convoy in the neighboring South Waziristan district, leaving two soldiers dead.
A defense analyst and retired army general Talat Masood said the Taliban wanted to convey the very clear message to the government that "this is our power. We can reach anytime anywhere, even in the most secured areas."
The European Union condemned the bombing and expressed sympathy with the relatives of the victims.
A statement from the EU Presidency, currently held by France, said the EU would "more than ever stand side by side" with Pakistan in its struggle against terrorism. (dpa) |
Hmmmm.
atm  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bonzelite
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 14
Location: so-cal
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| atm wrote: | Explosive craters are caused two ways:
a) aerial ordnance whether missile or bomb
b) a planted, underground device
A truck bomb cannot make a crater: the explosion would go to atmosphere. Basic physics.
There is more to this attack than meets the eye. That is a massive crater. Memories of OKC and the Bali bombing spring to mind.
The truck was packed with high-grade TNT, trinitrotoluene, or RDX,
cyclotrimethylene-trinitramine, a military explosive, said Malik, as well
as mortar bombs, artillery shells and an incendiary aluminum powder.
How could Rehman Malik, security advisor to Prime Minister Gilani, know all of the various, some exotic, ordnance used so soon? Fishy. Very, very fishy.
Hmmmm.
atm |
good points!
how in the hell are all of the physical substances and chemicals known so instantly, and then rattled off like a forensic report?
_________________
in-n-out burger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atm
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 2695
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Is Rehman Malik a CIA / ISI double agent? His movements on the day of Benazir Bhutto's assassination raise serious concerns, as does his remarkable knowledge about the explosives used at the Marriott.
| Quote: |
Subject: PPP asking many questions about Rehman Malik
14/01/2008 4:13 AM
http://www.insaf.pk/Forum/tabid/53/forumid/4/tpage/1/view/topic/postid/21630/Default.aspx#21630
By Rauf Klasra
NAUDERO: The absence of Rehman Malik, chief security officer (CSO) of Benazir Bhutto, from the scene of the deadly attack in Rawalpindi raised a lot of questions in the ranks of the PPP, but Farhatullah Babar who was with him at that moment, strongly defended him.
It was on record that the CSO of the late leader had no clue when did Benazir, whom he was supposed to protect even at the cost of his life, came under attack and where she was taken when she was hit.
Sources said Rehman remained confined to the Bilawal House in Islamabad to the surprise and shock of the party leaders.
Some party leaders in Naudero, who were present at the site of the attack and in the hospital, said they did not have any idea where Rehman was after Ms Bhutto was killed on the spot by a trained killer.
Rehman had even told the Geo News that Ms Bhutto escaped unhurt in the attack, which greatly relieved the whole of Pakistan.
Even Interior Ministry Spokesman Brig (retd) Javed Cheema told media men that after the reports of the attack on Ms Bhutto, he had contacted Rehman Malik who informed him that she escaped unhurt and he issued the same statement on the basis of the assurance given to him by the chief security adviser to Ms Bhutto.
But shortly after the live beeper of Rehman on the Geo, the horrible reports started emerging from all corners that Ms Bhutto was in a critical condition at the Rawalpindi General Hospital and she might not survive.
This dramatic situation, which developed after the statement of Rehman Malik that Ms Bhutto was in good health, created a big confusion not only in the minds of the party workers but all those who were listening to his comments on the Geo TV, live.
Sources said later they learned that Rehman had gone to the Bilawal House where he remained and reached the hospital after Asif Ali Zardari was said to have reached there from Dubai.
The party workers were wondering how could the chief security officer be missing from the scene of the attack, when he was exclusively supposed to be with Ms Bhutto all the time in his special capacity.
Rehman Malik was also travelling in a different vehicle as Ms Bhutto was in her bullet- and bomb-proof car with Naheed Khan and Makhdoom Amin Fahim, who later took a dying Ms Bhutto to the hospital.
One of the explanations given to this correspondent about the travelling of Rehman in a separate car was that he was instructed by Ms Bhutto herself to use a separate car as like her, he too was on the hit list of terrorists. She did not want him to die with her in case of an attack on her car.
However, talking to The News, the PPP spokesman unfolded a different story, which on the one side defended Rehman Malik, but on the other side also left some key questions unanswered.
Babar said he was also in the car in which Rehman was travelling after Ms Bhutto ended her speech in Rawalpindi and they all headed towards the Bilawal House. He said they had no idea whether Benazir was hurt in the attack, so they all went to the Bilawal House.
But, Babar defending Rehman Malik, said when the jubilant crowd stopped the car of Benazir Bhutto, Rehman was quite upset as he said this was not the right approach and Ms Bhutto should simply go home as there could be some trouble.
Likewise, he said, we both were talking on the telephones and at one point we both realised that if our telephones were operating inside the car, it meant that the jammers were not working properly. That created a panic and Rehman immediately picked up his cell phone and started contacting the IGP and the Home Department to know why the jammers were not working properly when Ms Bhutto was travelling towards Islamabad.
Babar said, however, he could not hear the conversation between Rehman and the government officials concerned as in the meantime, he got busy on his own cell phone.
However, Babar said they both reached the Bilawal House without having any idea about the injuries to Benazir, as they were under the strong impression that she was coming behind their car in a separate car.
But, Babar revealed, when he reached the Bilawal House and found Benazir missing, he got alarmed and his first spontaneous reaction was to rush back to Rawalpindi to know where Ms Bhutto was.
To his horror, Babar was told that she was in a critical condition at the General Hospital in Rawalpindi. Babar said he did not know at that time where Rehman Malik and other party leaders were, as he rushed inside the hospital where he found Ms Bhutto in a room.
He said, Major Imtiaz and Naheed Khan were present there but he did not know about the rest that who was there and who was not.
But Babar remained silent on why Rehman Malik did not accompany him when he rushed to Rawalpindi after coming to know that Benazir was missing.
When asked who informed Asif Ali Zardari about the tragic death of Ms Bhutto, Farhatullah Babar said according to his information, that difficult job was done by Dr Safdar Abbasi.
But, one party source said Makhdoom Amin Fahim, who had taken Ms Bhutto to the hospital, had performed the most difficult task of his life to tell Asif Ali Zardari and his children that that they had lost Benazir Bhutto forever.
This correspondent made several efforts to get the point of view of Rehman Malik but he did not attend the phone.
|
Check here:
http://united4justice.wordpress.com/2008/05/10/rehman-double-agent-malik-emergency-mailing-list/
http://pkpolitics.com/2008/01/04/fishy-character-rehman-malik/
atm  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bonzelite
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 14
Location: so-cal
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
This smells like another "stand down" kind of order that suspiciously nearly always coincides with some kind of highly anomalous, highly bizarre and out-of-the-norm kind of series of events that seem to nearly alwyas have the telltale signs of pre-planning.
And the powers that execute these plans blatantly foist upon the public some story that is then perpetuated enough in the media to then become "factual," with layers of disinformation washing over the event, obscuring it's real origin.
_________________
in-n-out burger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atm
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 2695
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fintan
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3890
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | bonzelite:
The hotel was at one point the primary target because
there was a dinner there. Is this correct or not? |
100% Incorrect.
Thanks Rick and EddieT for tackling bonzelite on this issue.
To reiterate:
| Quote: | The speaker shifted the venue from the sprawling lawns of
Parliament House to the adjacent more secure Prime Minister’s
House in view of the warning. |
Quite simple really.
| Quote: | | Rick Dagless: Heh, now I'm confused. |
Well, bonzelite is a member since Feb, 2006 and has never posted
on the Forum --except to be the first to respond here and end up
causing a great deal of confusion.... Go figure, eh?
Maybe we're right on the money on all this.
| Quote: | atm:
A truck bomb cannot make a crater: the explosion would go to atmosphere. Basic physics.
There is more to this attack than meets the eye. That is a massive crater.
Memories of OKC and the Bali bombing spring to mind. |
Nice stuff on Rehman Malik, atm. He's always been dirty.
Yeah the crater is 24 feet deep. Awesome.
Only a veritable boatload of RDX would and could do that, and some very
sophisticated ignition/trigger design. The use of aluminium powder says to
me that this was designed to kill lots of people rather than only level a building.
This was a super-napalm-type attack.
There would have been a lot of dead politicians.
They aimed to destroy Pakistan as a country.
Totally.
_________________
Minds are like parachutes.
They only function when open.
Last edited by Fintan on Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
