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macauleym



Joined: 27 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

destro wrote:
Yeah media blitz, he's all of a suddent teh hot new 9/11 whistleblower he was on jack; jack blood, maria heller, a few others and now is assoc. with the loose change retards? It all leads up to his film???? Check out the trailer. A guy displaced from his job by 'the big boys' is doing this? Me thinks not, even if they are right, those loose change guys are so dumb I'd rather not find out the truth. Why did they talk about Gehlen in their film????? What does Reinhard Gehlen REALLY have to do with 9/11 ?????? I love the Gehlen, he's my favorite former nazi turned us spy asset, but really......Dilbert share your thoughts please.


OK, so maybe there's reason to be skeptical. But still, if you're going to automatically dismiss anyone who gets attention, then haven't you practically conceded defeat? I think there's a danger of being so cynical (no matter how much your cynicism seems to be justified) that you simply refuse to allow for the possibility that anyone might succeed in revealing the truth or making some progress toward justice, so that when and if opportunity knocks, you'll turn it away because you're convinced it's impossible, and thus you will help to fulfill your own prophecy.

I don't know much about Jack Blood or Meria Heller specifically, but do you really believe that every alternative media outlet/radio show is controlled? Even if they promote disinformation, and thus qualify for Fintan's CIA Fakes list, that doesn't necessarily mean they are disinformation -- they could be merely deceived, gullible, or fallible, i.e. human and imperfect, like all of us, each in our own way (and usually with more awareness of others' faults than our own). And even if a particular media outlet is controlled, to some degree, does that guarantee they will not touch a real whistleblower? Isn't disinformation generally effective insofar as it contains a large proportion of truth, with some more or less subtle lies, deceptions, and red herrings mixed in to confuse things and lead people astray? No 9/11 site (or alternative media outlet) can be effective if everything they say is clearly false; even the most fake sites/media, to remain credible, will be compelled to include some truth, and in most cases a good deal of truth, even if it leads nowhere. Though, admittedly, if they're really pushing one guy or one story or one point, hyping it and prioritizing it, it's probably a red herring or a dead end, unless they are sincere and not "fake", though perhaps deceived on many things and thus inadvertently promoting a lot of "fake" material.
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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ormond wrote:
Preface to Methodology.

Postings are best supported with sources who have already followed the above procedures. ie. here is a worthy example.
PHYSICS 911



I would present this as a FEW of the possible criticisms of Physics911. Just off the top of my head.

Morgan Reynolds - The Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers
cites questions about the collapse and the Pentagon
Hoffman has cited examples of poor logic he has used in some papers and some interviews to reach these conclusions, relying on factual errors, or relying on ambiguous evidence, or uses poor choices of word and phrase to describe his conclusions.

General Leonid Ivashov - International Terrorism Does Not Exist
creates a long quo bono argument here, without discussing particulars
My Brzezinski pages are better. Not only do I discuss the issues of quo bono and the rapaciousness of global finance cartels, I quote Brzezinski extensively a one leading representative of this group, and also the fact that HE CREATED the operation now known as Al-Qaeda. I quote his philosophy and his aims and methods and previous tactics which involve the use of mass murder to accomplish to accomplish the goals of global financial domination.
Ivashov's conclusions on the use of and respect for the United Nations has SOME plausibility. The problem is that the UN was created by the very same financial cartels to protect their interests, now the interests of the G8. The question is if the UN could be transformed from a toothless lobbying agency to a powerful structure, while remaining open to democratic input and respectful of indigenous, and individual sovereignty.
Or would it simply remain a "peacekeeping" force in the hands of the G8, designed to "pacify" populations via more terrorism in the guise of humanitarian concerns, using unequal standards for application of UN force depending on if it is in the interests of the G8 or not? Would it become a bigger monster in the hands of the ruthless, with an even more profound lack of accountablity than the US Government or other governments?

Karl W. Schwarz (listed as notorious hoaxer) - A3 Skywarrior: The Probable Pentagon Attack Aircraft?
http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/lcg2.html#American%20Free%20Press
There is lack of clear, unambiguous evidence that Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, and much evidence that it did.
Whether a missile was used or not, most likely along with the Flight 77, depends upon one's interpretation of the size of the hole, the strength of the facade. Hoffman cites a damage pattern which would support a large plane hitting the Pgon.
If in fact Flight 77 DID hit, there seems to be no logical reason why the plotters would use a missile as well, unless to cause some damage to that specific area of the Pgon, which is a possibility. (www.public-action.com states some strange anomalies about the lack-of-rescue operation)
There are too many false claims and is too much ambiguous evidence about the Pgon, except for the facts that:
a) it was hit at all.
b) the alleged pilot could scarely have flown that pattern.
c) whoever was controlling Flight 77 seemed to go to great lengths to make sure that it hit the (relatively) unoccupied portion, which had been recently reinforced, when it would have been far easier to hit the occupied portion where Rummy was sitting.

A. K. Dewdney - The Cellphone and Airfone Calls from Flight UA93
Dewdney unscientifically tested an airspace over Canada with a cellphone.
He only used one model, was it the same as those on 93?
With the transponders off, no one knows the altitude of Flight 93 at the time the calls were allegedly made.
"cellphone" may have meant "airphone" in official reports, without clarification, this cannot be refuted
one or more passengers, rather than swiping a credit card in an airphone, called collect
Loose Change "debunks" the cellphone calls by ridiculing the victims and survivors, both in their movie AND moreso in live interviews, leading to a sense of public revulsion and hatred for 9-11 Skeptics, as he characterizes them as liars and/or CIA ops, including the mothers and wives. (Even if that were true, which is very unlikely you'd need SOLID evidence, not mere conjecture, before making horrendous allegations.)

A. K. Dewdney - Islam Does Not Support Suicide Attacks
Apparently, Islam DOES support suicide attacks in some circumstances, and with some rational justification, such as when a dire threat exists to a larger Muslim population (and Arab Christians), up to and including real threat of mass death, near total systematic extermination, or extreme and unrelenting military repression.
(I specifically say "military repression" which is a kind of continuous warfare. Repression is a generic word used today to describe milder circumstances as censorship, name-calling, and scattered {rather than systemic} instances of police violence.)
Islamic societies' support for suicide attacks is NOT a cultural anomaly. It's just one more tactic of warfare and self-defense. It becomes operative due to lack of other safer forms of self-defense. Surely every suicide bomber in Palestine would rather rout the Israeli military by superior military force and tactics, if they had such weapons. Since the IDF wantonly attacks civilians, suicide bombers practice Tit-for-Tat. I find no hipocrisy in that. Only sorrow for all the victims.
Under certain conditions, Islamic religious leaders DO utilize the Koran or their interpretation of it to justify killing and warfare, even if the warfare results in personal death, AND when the tactic is based on the ultimate personal sacrifice as a method, rather than merely a probability or possibility.
The distinction between suicide attacks, killing civilians, and routine military operations, killing civilians accidentally on purpose, is a distinction without much difference, if any.
Christianity is routinely used to justify mass murder, warfare, and human sacrifice. In America, the war deaths are heroes who go to Heaven -- the lack of 77 virgins is immaterial. (I imagine the virgins represent purity and virility, a just reward for a king, not a vile orgy.) The conditions which western Christians cite to justify mass murder via warfare are quite mild, and the circumstances quite ambiguous, in terms of imaginary "threats". For Arabs, the threat is real, not theoretical.
As one military veteran explained, the "horror of suicide bombers" is fake propaganda. ANY American soldier who could not carry out a suicide attack upon orders to do so would be one lacking in military discipline.

Bill Christison - Stop Belittling the Theories About September 11
Either a nice guy or a Fisk, not explaining larger United States and G8 dynamic in Israeli issues.
Supports Loose Change, either unwittingly or knowingly.
Considering his CIA background, it's hard to say. He and his wife write an extraordinary number of articles backing the rights of Palestinians.

Morgan Reynolds - Clinging to the 911 Myth
"Nearly everyone in America has easy access to the internet and hundreds of websites expose the 9/11 fraud. The analysis is out there and in a few dozen books, although the mainstream media ignores it all."
and most of the analyses, though containing aspects of exposing a fraud, are bogus themselves
"Only government could have pulled off a psy-op this big, not a rag-tag band of Arab incompetents with no visible means of support repeatedly running afoul of law enforcement in the field."
No. At casual glance, O.N.Y.A could have pulled it off. The official story COULD be true, upon superficial observation, and that's why it remains. It takes more than a casual glance or statement to debunk the Official Stories.
It was never stated that they had no visible means of support. Allegedly, OBL funded them out of his investment riches. So, yes it was a psyop, and yes it had to be bigger than ONYA, but not for the reasons he says.


I believe that Jim Hoffman (not that I worship him as some "authority", just a cautious researcher) raised other, more specific and detailed early criticisms of the Physics911 group, if anyone wants to look.


Last edited by dilbert_g on Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:44 am; edited 4 times in total
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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reinhard Gehlen, CIA, Sept 11 Reply with quote

destro wrote:
What does Reinhard Gehlen REALLY have to do with 9/11 ?????? I love the Gehlen, he's my favorite former nazi turned us spy asset, but really......Dilbert share your thoughts please.


I'm not sure what you're referring to. I have to re-listen to Grove.

re: Reinhard Gehlen, CIA, Sept 11

I'm glad you asked. In reading my own responses here, I realize I need to update my own website to include explanations to what I assumed would be self-evident conclusions to evidence I presented.

The ONLY purpose I know of in mentioning Reinhard Gehlen in context of Sept 11 is this:
The CIA is provably nothing more than the American wing of the Nazi SS. The assimilation of the Gehlen Organization into the US Intelligence structure (OSS, but let's not have a fetish about official names, lots of it's traditionally black ops, black budget, and outsourced) where it became a function within the CIA after the CIA was established (or most likely joined "US intelligence" before 1947), this fact about Gehlen helps prove that point. This is one of many examples which proves the CIA-Nazi partnership.

OR MORE LIKELY, the Nazi SS was essentially nothing more than the German wing of the CIA/MI6. (I guess that depends on if you look at the "Illuminati dynasty" vs. "relative power relations" as to who was the dog and who was the tail.)


The POINT is that just as the Nazi SS is widely accepted as a ruthless, bloodthirsty, immoral killing machine, most anything you might say about the Nazi SS would apply equally to the CIA. This destroys the "they would never do Sept 11" (why, too moral?) mental resistance based off the conception that the CIA is here to protect everyone, and radically alters the entire context of the discussion.



A better example to LEAD with is the prosecution of Prescott Bush (or if speaking to a Bush devotee, perhaps start with the less-immediately-controvesial Bankers' Plot described below).

The Bush prosecution and the Bankers Plot are proven "data points". These are proven accounts. Not only are they documented, but these accounts are documented by official records within the United States government itself.

One, an official prosecution led by FBI head J. Edgar Hoover and the Justice Dept., of Prescott Bush for long-term illegal collaboration with Nazi Germany before and during the war, as well as during post-war reconstruction (alleged decontruction of the Nazi architecture in Germany) through 1951

Although Bush was clearly only a token prosecution:
"Trading with the Enemy" not "Treason"
no prison time, no firing squad
loss of assets, but got to acquire enough money later via dissolved Nazi Assets to run for Senate
won and served a seat in the Senate (the fake election of 1951?)
Prescott was only a small player, a "former tire salesman" put in charge of a Nazi "bank" by his wealthy father-in-law, George Herbert Walker, father of Dorothy Bush. Demon seed, they are.


The George Herbert Walker connection is the MORE INTERESTING story, IMO, because while it indicts the "Bush Crime Family", it does not end there, but leads to the prominent role of Allen Dulles (first CIA Director), his brother John Foster (Sec of State), their memberships and partnerships in the intricate web of Nazi shell corporations they founded, reveals the entire big money trail which indicts MANY of the biggest players on Wall Street, the heart of the financial ESTABLISHMENT itself.


Two, The Bankers' Plot of 1933 proves that support for Nazi fascism was NOT some "lone anomaly" or "mere investment". These guys actively lobbied to overthrow republican-democracy in the US, sideline or murder FDR (who was helping them retain their assets via compromises with Labor), and would have succeeded if their plan had not been aborted by "snitch" Gen. Butler.

This was an investigation worthy of Congressional Committee hearings, called McCormack-Dickstein, which confirmed at least SOME of the story, though it was suggested by absence of prosecutable details (which they chose not to seek) that all these allegations were "overblown", though not "false".

This was EXTREMELY similar to the BCCI "investigation" by the (John) Kerry Commission. CIA. Capital flows, money, drugs, terrorism, Al-Qaeda. Involving the international banking elites. No solid conclusions, and no convictions. It was also similar to the CIA-Drugs investigation/coverup around Iran-Contra. A few token convictions, later overturned.

The fact that these mild investigations/prosecutions were both nothing more than whitewashes is *typical* and hardly ANYONE would be shocked to learn about these as whitewashes. Most people, even Bill O'Reilly, admit that the rich get away with murder (though he was talking about OJ Simpson and the justice system which let him off, not high govt officials). Few would argue that the lack of hard, damning conclusions means that this was nothing serious. (I've come across a few of these nitwits on blogs while googling for some more clues. No matter what evidence, they claim there is NOTHING solid there.)


ONLY after these DATA POINTS are clarified does it make sense (to me) to discuss Reinhard Gehlen --- and the larger fact that the CIA is essentially nothing more than the American wing of the Nazi SS.


In other words, to me the Gehlen story is "filler". It is additional information which ILLUMINATES the embeddedness of the roots of the relationship between these VILE organizations. However, some people have argued with me that "well, we had to take the Nazi scientists because if we didn't, the Evil Russian Commies would have taken them. (and intelligence?) (architects of death?) (why?) Oh, the commies that the Nazis were hell bent on destroying would have convinced the SS villains to now serve Socialism, and could have trusted them? (OK, fine if you want that.)

Why couldn't America have just kept the rocket scientists and killed the SS henchmen? Nuremburg docket full? CIA was clutter addicts? Don't want to throw out some perfectly good architects of slaughter and fascist domination and social control? Might need them some day? Well, YES. And not only "some day", but because they became (or remained) an active and seamless part of US Intelligence, and lived to reconstruct the Nazi SS projected through the power of the United States Military.

I shall state one more thing to clarify what might seem self-evident.

One of the things Police investigators look for in a crime is "Modus Oparandi" or MO. Patterns of operation, criminal history. People with no known criminal history DO commit heinous crimes, but they are generally not included in the first glance. People with a known criminal history are often who the police go to for interviews, fingerprint files, and other evidence collection.

The CIA perfectly fits the MO of Sept 11 perpetrators, in the sense of the Reichstag fire, and in every other way. Murder, Inc. is one way they've been described. The talk about Edwin Wilson and the Merchants of Death by Ralph Schoenman on www.takingaim.info should wipe out any possible doubts about the nature of this beast.
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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:43 pm    Post subject: RISE OF THE FOURTH REICH Reply with quote

TRULY AMAZING ARTICLES JUST READ THE TITLES, I HAVE NOT READ ALL THESE YET.
http://watch.pair.com/

Christian website, pretty extreme insofar as talking about "sodomite marriage" and how Bush is really pro-abortion.

I'm not so much into the really spooky religious speculation as the ties to power and PROVEN connections of Nazis and death squads and CIA fronts.

The interesting parts involve things like the John Birch Society as a CIA front. HELLO? Alex? Can you hear me? Apparently, from it's conception, JBS was not only spying on Americans FOR the CIA and reconstituted Nazis, and possibly trying to "database" Christians who could be "extremists", but also setting up some Hegelian Dialectic between the right and left. So the very thing Jones talks about in terms of the Illuminati and Hegelian Dialectic is something he has been a part of, and his father. This brings the whole "CIA Fakes" concept to a whole new level.


If you listen, you have to sit thru a lot of Christian talk, which to me is interesting like watching a strange cultural study on National Geographics, more than personal interest. I don't have anything against Deists, such as Jefferson or Washington. That is, to my knowledge, they believed in a generic sort of God, without buying the whole Bible shebang. Fine. So does Freemasonry mean they were evil plotters?

Certainly, their statement that the entire big, mainstream, right wing, fake Christian churches --- Dobson, Kennedy, Robertson, Falwell, etc. --- and the fake "Libertarian" right is really just a front for fascism is not THAT surprising. I mean we all probably knew or suspected this as a CIA front, but to have the documented corporate history of shell companies, etc. --- not to mention *bloodlines* --- going back decades as front groups, this adds to my resolve to expose it without concern of offending a REAL Christian.

Watch Unto Prayer
RECOMMENDED SERMON ~
Paul Washer of HeartCry Missionary Society

A powerful message based on Matt. 7:13-27 which was presented to 5,000 teenagers at the 2002 Youth Conference of the Southern Baptist Convention. Pastor Washer challenged the young people to “examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith” and not to presume they are saved based on the false gospel of American Christianity which is derived from a godless culture rather than the Word of God. Young and old alike need to hear this sermon in these final days before the Tribulation begins. When you do, you’ll understand why Paul Washer has not been invited to preach again by the Masonically-controlled SBC.


http://watch.pair.com/audio.html
AUDIO - A FEW EXAMPLES
All American right-wing organizations since 1960 have been offshoots of the John Birch Society, whose origins were in the Council on Foreign Relations, Freemasonry, the Federal Reserve System, the post-WWII Nazi network and the Knights of Malta.

(The JBS has been ostensibly at war with the CFR and such "communist" orgs. Not really.)
http://watch.pair.com/jbs-cnp.html

Council for National Policy origins in and interlocking directorates with the JBS intelligence front, Western Goals Foundation, the World Anti-Communist League (both Nazi fronts), Latin American Death Squads and Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church.

http://watch.pair.com/cnp.html

How CNP members Larry Pratt and Howard Phillips collaborated with Neo-Nazis toward the creation of death squads in North America. (!!!)

Death of the Phoenix: Final Act for the USA ~ Part 1 Prophecies of impending disasters in the U.S. by government insiders Chuck Pierce and Kim Clement. Why the United States must be sacrificed. (I don't know about prophesies, but these guys have lots of factual names and corporate connections.)


NEW WORLD ORDER
BEHIND THE CONSERVATIVE CURTAIN

The Third Way ~ Politics of the Radical Center ~ Understanding the Dialectical Process

The John Birch Society ~ A CFR Front

http://watch.pair.com/John%20Birch%20Society.mp3

The Council for National Policy ~ The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy I did read this one whooo! (link 1 is bad on website, but this works)

http://watch.pair.com/Council%20for%20National%20Policy%201.mp3
http://watch.pair.com/Council%20for%20National%20Policy%202.mp3
Sun Myung Moon & the CNP ~ Paymaster of the Christian Right

The Rockefeller ~ Heritage Connection ~ Follow the Money Trail

Freedom From Religious Persecution ~ Or Freedom from Christianity?

~ Church of Scientology ~ Hudson Institute ~ Freedom House ~

International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church & more

Charter Schools & Character Education
~ Pseudo Grassroots Orgs Front for Corporate/Government Takeover

RISE OF THE FOURTH REICH

The Bush Family Oligarchy ~ Funding the Hitler Project

Brave New Babies ~ Unprotected Human Subjects of Biomedical Research
~ Exploitation of the Christian Right & Pro-Life Cover-Up of Same
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destro
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dilbert_g wrote:
Ormond wrote:
Preface to Methodology.

Postings are best supported with sources who have already followed the above procedures. ie. here is a worthy example.
PHYSICS 911



I would present this as a FEW of the possible criticisms of Physics911. Just off the top of my head.

Morgan Reynolds - The Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers
cites questions about the collapse and the Pentagon
Hoffman has cited examples of poor logic he has used in some papers and some interviews to reach these conclusions, relying on factual errors, or relying on ambiguous evidence, or uses poor choices of word and phrase to describe his conclusions.

General Leonid Ivashov - International Terrorism Does Not Exist
creates a long quo bono argument here, without discussing particulars
My Brzezinski pages are better. Not only do I discuss the issues of quo bono and the rapaciousness of global finance cartels, I quote Brzezinski extensively a one leading representative of this group, and also the fact that HE CREATED the operation now known as Al-Qaeda. I quote his philosophy and his aims and methods and previous tactics which involve the use of mass murder to accomplish to accomplish the goals of global financial domination.
Ivashov's conclusions on the use of and respect for the United Nations has SOME plausibility. The problem is that the UN was created by the very same financial cartels to protect their interests, now the interests of the G8. The question is if the UN could be transformed from a toothless lobbying agency to a powerful structure, while remaining open to democratic input and respectful of indigenous, and individual sovereignty.
Or would it simply remain a "peacekeeping" force in the hands of the G8, designed to "pacify" populations via more terrorism in the guise of humanitarian concerns, using unequal standards for application of UN force depending on if it is in the interests of the G8 or not? Would it become a bigger monster in the hands of the ruthless, with an even more profound lack of accountablity than the US Government or other governments?

Karl W. Schwarz (listed as notorious hoaxer) - A3 Skywarrior: The Probable Pentagon Attack Aircraft?
http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/lcg2.html#American%20Free%20Press
There is lack of clear, unambiguous evidence that Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, and much evidence that it did.
Whether a missile was used or not, most likely along with the Flight 77, depends upon one's interpretation of the size of the hole, the strength of the facade. Hoffman cites a damage pattern which would support a large plane hitting the Pgon.
If in fact Flight 77 DID hit, there seems to be no logical reason why the plotters would use a missile as well, unless to cause some damage to that specific area of the Pgon, which is a possibility. (www.public-action.com states some strange anomalies about the lack-of-rescue operation)
There are too many false claims and is too much ambiguous evidence about the Pgon, except for the facts that:
a) it was hit at all.
b) the alleged pilot could scarely have flown that pattern.
c) whoever was controlling Flight 77 seemed to go to great lengths to make sure that it hit the (relatively) unoccupied portion, which had been recently reinforced, when it would have been far easier to hit the occupied portion where Rummy was sitting.

A. K. Dewdney - The Cellphone and Airfone Calls from Flight UA93
Dewdney unscientifically tested an airspace over Canada with a cellphone.
He only used one model, was it the same as those on 93?
With the transponders off, no one knows the altitude of Flight 93 at the time the calls were allegedly made.
"cellphone" may have meant "airphone" in official reports, without clarification, this cannot be refuted
one or more passengers, rather than swiping a credit card in an airphone, called collect
Loose Change "debunks" the cellphone calls by ridiculing the victims and survivors, both in their movie AND moreso in live interviews, leading to a sense of public revulsion and hatred for 9-11 Skeptics, as he characterizes them as liars and/or CIA ops, including the mothers and wives. (Even if that were true, which is very unlikely you'd need SOLID evidence, not mere conjecture, before making horrendous allegations.)

A. K. Dewdney - Islam Does Not Support Suicide Attacks
Apparently, Islam DOES support suicide attacks in some circumstances, and with some rational justification, such as when a dire threat exists to a larger Muslim population (and Arab Christians), up to and including real threat of mass death, near total systematic extermination, or extreme and unrelenting military repression.
(I specifically say "military repression" which is a kind of continuous warfare. Repression is a generic word used today to describe milder circumstances as censorship, name-calling, and scattered {rather than systemic} instances of police violence.)
Islamic societies' support for suicide attacks is NOT a cultural anomaly. It's just one more tactic of warfare and self-defense. It becomes operative due to lack of other safer forms of self-defense. Surely every suicide bomber in Palestine would rather rout the Israeli military by superior military force and tactics, if they had such weapons. Since the IDF wantonly attacks civilians, suicide bombers practice Tit-for-Tat. I find no hipocrisy in that. Only sorrow for all the victims.
Under certain conditions, Islamic religious leaders DO utilize the Koran or their interpretation of it to justify killing and warfare, even if the warfare results in personal death, AND when the tactic is based on the ultimate personal sacrifice as a method, rather than merely a probability or possibility.
The distinction between suicide attacks, killing civilians, and routine military operations, killing civilians accidentally on purpose, is a distinction without much difference, if any.
Christianity is routinely used to justify mass murder, warfare, and human sacrifice. In America, the war deaths are heroes who go to Heaven -- the lack of 77 virgins is immaterial. (I imagine the virgins represent purity and virility, a just reward for a king, not a vile orgy.) The conditions which western Christians cite to justify mass murder via warfare are quite mild, and the circumstances quite ambiguous, in terms of imaginary "threats". For Arabs, the threat is real, not theoretical.
As one military veteran explained, the "horror of suicide bombers" is fake propaganda. ANY American soldier who could not carry out a suicide attack upon orders to do so would be one lacking in military discipline.

Bill Christison - Stop Belittling the Theories About September 11
Either a nice guy or a Fisk, not explaining larger United States and G8 dynamic in Israeli issues.
Supports Loose Change, either unwittingly or knowingly.
Considering his CIA background, it's hard to say. He and his wife write an extraordinary number of articles backing the rights of Palestinians.

Morgan Reynolds - Clinging to the 911 Myth
"Nearly everyone in America has easy access to the internet and hundreds of websites expose the 9/11 fraud. The analysis is out there and in a few dozen books, although the mainstream media ignores it all."
and most of the analyses, though containing aspects of exposing a fraud, are bogus themselves
"Only government could have pulled off a psy-op this big, not a rag-tag band of Arab incompetents with no visible means of support repeatedly running afoul of law enforcement in the field."
No. At casual glance, O.N.Y.A could have pulled it off. The official story COULD be true, upon superficial observation, and that's why it remains. It takes more than a casual glance or statement to debunk the Official Stories.
It was never stated that they had no visible means of support. Allegedly, OBL funded them out of his investment riches. So, yes it was a psyop, and yes it had to be bigger than ONYA, but not for the reasons he says.


I believe that Jim Hoffman (not that I worship him as some "authority", just a cautious researcher) raised other, more specific and detailed early criticisms of the Physics911 group, if anyone wants to look.


Dilbert I was saying that fillpantly, I love gehlen I MEAN HE IS FUCKING THE REAL DOCTOR STRANGELOVE. but he has zero to do with 9.11 he didnt come up with it and he can be used to show the kind of people in our government. Im sorry I feel if you talk about Reinhard you're being like the Loose Change guys, you know, useless. Im not calling you that, you contribute alot of good to this board from what i've seen of you. What prosecutory value against our gov't could talking about Reinhard possibly serve, only as a way to show how dark a shade of character they really have. There's no direct link.
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allheart



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject: 9/11 discussion Reply with quote

One of the problems with the "Loose Change" video is that while it provides some good information about the execution of the attack, it fails to even menction all the evidence (and there's plenty of it!) about the connection that has been found between zionists (like Larry Silverstein, Ehud Olmert and many others) and this heinous crime. For a much better and complete investigation, check out the videos, articles and links in this site: www.hugequestions.com
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Rosalinda



Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 355
Location: Mexico

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject: Harlot's Ghost Reply with quote

Nazi CIA asset Gehlen is a persona in Norman Mailer's novel "Harlot's Ghost".

In this first rate literary novel, Mailer - who has intelligence agency sources -
presents numbers of hints regarding the PostWW2 Nazi-CIA correspondence
as well as an art product medium level CIA operator's view of the JFK killing.

Howard Hunt is another persona in this fascinating fictional acocount of the
CIA on the 1950s and early 1960s. It would be surprising if there were not
clues as to the authorship and modus operendi of the nine one one attacks.

Yes, Nazis crawling across the ropes onto the docks of the Dulles Brothers
brought to America thier dark science of the torture chamber and front-edge
propaganada methods involving the manipulation of the minds of the masses

_________________
"It is through beauty, that one proceeds to freedom." - Friedrich Schiller
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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 850
Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:22 am    Post subject: Humor?!? "Recap" of the 9/11 Truth Movement Reply with quote

Couldn't resist. No talking points in here, but I have heard these types of arguments before. And one phrase I've emboldened because it is uncomfortably close to the truth.

TRANSCRIPT: Recap of the 9/11 Truth Movement
W=Westley, V=Vincini; with grateful thanks to (though I had to type in the last two lines)
http://www.totse.com/en/ego/literary_genius/bride.html


W: Well if there can be no arrangement, then we are at an impasse.

V: I'm afraid so. I can't compete with you physically and you're no match for my brains.

W: You're that smart?

V: Let me put it this way, have you ever heard of Plato? Aristotle? Socrates?

W: Yes...

V: Morons.

W: Really? In that case I challenge you to a battle of wits.

V: For the princess? <W nods> To the Death? <Nods again> I accept!

W: Good. Then pour the wine. <W pulls out a small cylinder> Inhale this, but do not touch.

V: I smell nothing.

W: What you do not smell is called Iocane powder. It is odorless, tasteless, dissolves instantly in liquid, and is among the more deadly poisons known to man.

V: Hmm!

<W puts powder in wine behind his back and produces the two glasses again>

W: Alright, where is the poison? The Battle of Wits has begun. Its ends when you decide and we both drink and find out who is right, and who is dead.

V: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemies? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool--you would have counted on it--so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me!

W: You've made your decision then?

V: Oh not remotely! Because Iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

W: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

V: Wait 'till I get going! Where was I?

W: Australia.

V: Yes, Australia! And you must have suspected I would've know the powder's origin so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

W: You're just stalling now.

V: You'd like to think that wouldn't you?!? You've beaten my giant which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must've studied--and in studying you must've learned that man is mortal, so you would've put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

W: You're trying to trick into giving away something. It won't work.

V: It has worked! You've given everything away! I know where the poison is!

W: Then make your choice!

V: I will. And I choose--What in the world can that be?!?

W: What? Where? <W turns around and V switches goblets> I don't see anything.

V: Oh well I... I could've sworn I saw something..uhhhh, no matter. <chuckles>

W: What's so funny?

V: I-I'll tell ya in a minute. First, let's drink. Me from my glass and you from yours.

<they drink, V chuckles>

W: You guessed wrong.

V: You only think I guessed wrong. That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Haha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! aHAHAHAHAHAhaha! aHahahahaha! aHahaha--

**CLUMP** <V falls over dead>

Princess: So all the time... it was your own cup that was poisoned!

W: They were both poisoned. I've spent the last few years building up a resistance to iocaine powder.


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Hocus Locus



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Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:23 am    Post subject: Baby Huey, mental angst, ~Murder!~ and meltdown Reply with quote

I admit I never liked the Baby Huey cartoon character at all. The animators screwed up. Here he is at last, I thought, the 'ugly duckling' of story and fable... but at the last moment they sell out, blow some kind of cultural fuse: instead of ugly, they made him cute and big and fat. And stupid. "What a cheat," I thought. (It bothered me because I considered myself kind of ugly, and in the story the duckling is not pretty, but not stupid either, just sad and determined), Not Huey's fault though; I conciously endeavored not to hold it against Huey, which felt a bit annoying. I'll bet every kid has bizarre stresses like this going on at some level.

Elsewhere I've mentioned my personal feelings about the Towers. You may think it strange, but I listened to September 11 on 9/11, exclusively by radio. I am a radio person... had a telivision but did not even look on that day because what I was hearing was so damned awful. As I listened straight into the evening, I was seeing the towers in my mind as they had been and knew that was gone. Just trying to hold on, I guess. It was a crank radio too, needed winding every five minutes. I was grateful, gave me something to do with my hands. I am not a TV news watcher and while I started following 9/11 on Internet... It was almost one full year later that I watched the buildings collapse -- for the first time.

So it appears that while the rest of the country was being thrown into some sort of 'slow seizure', as Fintan so cruelly and quite accurately alleges -- I was in a different world, mourning privately, still mentally holding on to that beautiful still image in National Geographic: 'Towers at Twilight'. I do not like funerals either and intend to skip my own. But I was reading, following events, whacking news items, more by intuitive feel than calculated method. Just percolating. So in the deck of psyop-people types I may be a wildcard or blank of some sort. Hope it doesn't get in the way.

When I actually saw WTC7 fall for the first time, a VHS tape dad had run all day on 9/11, almost a year since I'd been hearing people talk about it -- I swear I felt the same kind of annoyance -- connected it later: Baby Huey. One of these things is not like the others. I felt indifference when they said it had been evacuated. I was weeping but did not weep for WTC7. On Internet people had been exuberant and were still going on about WTC7 being "the key". Now I wanted to scream at them, for no reason at all, "So F'ing what??" Yet I had known all along they were just excited because every time they saw it fall, they were imagining the whole damned mystery unfolding. Just like that. Unveiled! Cleanly. Completely Damned if it wasn't like one of David Copperfield's productions, the distracting choreography and smooth movement such a joy to watch, you don't care just where the goblet went. Yet different -- a brief taste of 'victory'. Heady stuff. Me, I was just annoyed: what of the Towers?

The excellent material at 911research.wtc7.net showed WTC7's backbone: strange shapes, asymmetrical features, cantilevered trusses over transformers and other preexisting site features. Instant headache. Baby Huey again (I thought, who would understand if I said it out loud, even now? ;). Such deceptive complexity! An amazing achievement... someone who really knows what they're doing could make this building do a backflip before it settled down. Not me. I moved on.

Then yesterday I made a breakthrough -- something I had written: "They say murder is easier the second time around. Rest in peace, Melissa."

Melissa Doi. No I didn't know her, she is a 911 call; I will say no more. Guess I keep a candle burning for her... so afraid, so aware. O Fortuna, velut luna, statu variabilis, semper crescis aut decrescis, vita detestabilis!


WTC7 pisses me off because no one died there. I guess that begs an explanation. 'Baby Huey' has gathered too much attention, has supplied too much distraction -- has given so much 'false hope', of that distinctly psy-opic kind -- "We've reeeally got 'em on the run now!" -- to other people, not me, while I was just feeling indifferent and increasingly annoyed... yet too stupid to realize I should delve deeper in to discover why.

Reality check. Prove WTC7 demolition (piece of cake!) and what to you win? A fart in Silverstein's books. Perhaps a little more. A rude expression of angst directed solely at myself, believe me, it is not intended to convey any disrespect to Mr. Silvenstein: even should I investigate. I do not 'presume' .

Reality Check. Would pursuing an admission of 'demolition' for WTC7 somehow 'lead into the rest of the story'? Or just provide a convenient opportunity for more wagon circling while some are lulled to sleep by reiteration of the essential differences of the buildings' failures ... while the rest make a rude whistling noise and say, "So... that's what the last five years has been about. Geesh!" And turn away.

Is deception a crime?

Treason may be... which tends to be decided, I suggest historically, by tyrant or mob. With that kind of track record I often wonder why it is even on the books.

WTC2: pure, classic prosecutable murder.
WTC1: pure, classic prosecutable murder.


To be distracted away from murder, simple murder. ¿Esé es sueño?

God I hate WTC7.
But I am no longer annoyed by it, actually feels good!

Tonight is my night to cry Murder!

Tomorrow I will be indifferent again, empty. Do other things for awhile, neglected things.
Back in a few days if any will have me... just needed to scream... Forgive, thanks for listening.

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Hac in hora sine mora corde pulsum tangite
At this hour, therefore, let us pluck the strings without delay.
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Mattster



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure where to put this, so I'll put it here.

12 oct 2006

2 dead in NY crash:

An American baseball star and his flying instructor have died after their light plane slammed into a New York building.
New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle was piloting the four-seater when it struck the 20th floor of a building on East 72nd Street, near the East River.


http://www.skynews.com.au/story.asp?id=132804


It hasn't said this on the sky news website yet, but on its satelite chanel skynews said that Cory Lidle's passport was found in the wreckage of the planes.

How he's passport was able to be found in that inferno in the building is unbelievable, because the pictures they showed of the crash into the residential towers showed two whole aparments completely up in flames!

I wonder if they deliberally lied about finding his passport there, so it makes the passport found at the 911 towers sound more believeable?
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intent



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow!
So... now 9/11 is bad drug deal between corrupted Clinton and corrupted
Muslim coke sniffing terrorists?!
Very Happy

I got to hand it to you dude -- you really nailed those fakes from Wing TV and that Hopsicker dude.
this is so plain to see now.

the roaches are being exposed and some of them are running away

I watched the video and it is just like you said, including that Lisa is in driver’s seat.

just by allowing that Hopsicker dude that sounds like an idiot to ‘dominate’ the interview is such an obvious setup, but that fake fight towards end takes the cake.

Effectively, Wing TV just allowed '9/11 investigation' to be even more
directionless, water is even more muddied, people who search for truth even more confused and I think this is the idea -- they are the derailers


you really must have sixth sense or something.

outstanding analysis!

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rodin



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:04 am    Post subject: 9/11 3i Evidence Reply with quote

I suggest another 9/11 3i section titled Evidence

For example I would include this evidence

I submit 5 Middle Eastern Men were witnessed filming and celebrating the demise of the Twin Towers. The NYT reported they had set up their camera in advance (though how they know this is another matter since they were spotted only after they started high fiving and dancing). They were arrested by the FBI with Arab Clothing in their van among other incriminating evidence. Later on TV one of them said 'our purpose was to document the event'.

I would include as submission documents the NYT report and numerous other certified reports on this case. I would include footage of the actual admission that was transmitted on TV

I would NOT include in this section since it is not evidence

1) Fintan's suggestion that the 5 Israelis issue is not significant.
2) My suggestion that the Israelis were likely filming a video designed to frame Arabs and arouse hostile feelings towards Muslims.

Now either of us could be right in our analysis. Hopefully, the actual video which the FBI witnessed can be produced in court and the jury allowed to judge for themselves.

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