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Uncovered: The Rat's Nest of 9/11
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Xtreb



Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:44 am    Post subject: "I'm not exactly sure whom to even resist." Reply with quote

This is the whole point it seems - to be unsure of whom to resist.

I believe Fintan to be what he accuses others of. I believe that most of those he accuses are indeed what he says. On this site, you must blame the vague, the unreachable, the ambiguous.

Never mind that the G8 is run by PEOPLE. We are supposed to forget the people, and blame the unjailable.

This person Phil just wants to do something, but he is cajoled into "acceptance" of the vague and unjailable.

BullShit - Silverstein is jailable and real action requires the b-a-l-l-s to call a spade, a spade.

This place is a pit in which the point is to get lost. Then, hopefully you will navel-gaze your way into some cosmic understanding and forget why you ever came.

Phil - go ahead and stand up. Don't listen to people who want you to blame ghosts and then become one yourself. You do indeed have the ballz to do something - otherwise you wouldnt be telling people at work.

AT WORK...thats ballz.

This place here.. this is like a powersoak, or a heatsink. That is what this forum is.
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Elijah



Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I think Phil captures the essence of where 9-11 Truth fits in the resistance.

To a great extent, we are ALL limited to acting on what we "know." And what we "know," is mostly NOT based on personal experience. It is not an exaggeration to say that most all of what the participants on this discussion group "know" about 9-11 is based upon what we have read, heard and seen, and not on first hand experience. So we are all dealing with "facts" and information transmitted by someone else, and all of it along the way is subject to intentional and unintentional disinformation. Before we attack most everyone who has taken the lead in 9-11 truth as a "fake," we should engage in a little bit of epistemological humility.

From my personal experience, most of the people I know have not even begun to comprehend that 9-11 was some kind of inside job. If a "fakes" web site helps them break through their commonly-held paradigm about 9-11, and begin to become aware of the massive lying and corruption in government, then let's be thankful.

The uninitiated have much bigger problems than wondering how many "fakes" can dance on the head of a web site!

The major push from the PTB is toward some kind of one-world government, with the abolition of national and individual sovereignty. That is happening without wondering whether the ultimate agenda of a "fake" is to push us to one-world government. IMO, we are much better off if more people know 9-11 was an inside job, than if they don't. The naive ones are much easier to control.

In the long run, leaderless resistance will be the key. If we get to the point that the PTB start rounding up the resistors (and they will know who the most vocal are -- they are surely monitoring even a small list like this), it will be those who are left who will hold the key to freedom.

There may be more than we think who are reading these forums, and visiting these web sites, who are just keeping low visibility. They will pick their battles and live to fight another day.

It is quite possible that a forum like this can serve as cyber "flypaper," attracting those of us who are more ego-driven to participate, to stand up and be counted. And they will count us.
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Elijah



Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: "I'm not exactly sure whom to even resist." Reply with quote

Xtreb wrote:
This is the whole point it seems - to be unsure of whom to resist.

This place is a pit in which the point is to get lost. Then, hopefully you will navel-gaze your way into some cosmic understanding and forget why you ever came.

This place here.. this is like a powersoak, or a heatsink. That is what this forum is.


Xtreb: As I have pondered this thread since joining a few days ago, these have been my thoughts exactly. We have here a handful of people, some of whom are fighting the others, dissipating energy rather than having constructive dialogue. The more constructive parts are quite helpful, though.
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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This place here.. this is like a powersoak, or a heatsink. That is what this forum is.


Quote:
We have here a handful of people, some of whom are fighting the others, dissipating energy rather than having constructive dialogue.


Good points made by all. Phil and I have made nice-nice with mutual respect, and are moving on to exchanging opinions and not arguing over differences. I think we took a booby trapped topic and managed to turn a brawl into a discussion. Yes, the early pages are bloody, but can we now move on?

We are no longer 'arguing', and there is no fight here, so I will no longer respond to arguments about the 'poinlessness of arguing'. We're done with that now.

I'd much rather hear your opinions on the facts, rather than the effectiveness of an internet forum, or whether or not I'm still a complete sucker. Those could both be seperate threads: 'The effectiveness of the internet skeptic community' or 'Jerry Fletcher - Pied piper for the perpetually clueless'. I'd happily participate.

This place only becomes a sinkhole if we can't move past the 'bickering'. I have, Phil has. Only those not interested in the progress of our discussions would continually keep fanning the flames of our 'disagreements'. Especially those who drop in, drop a bomb, and drop out. So let's drop it and talk about issues rather than ourselves.

Quote:
Never mind that the G8 is run by PEOPLE. We are supposed to forget the people, and blame the unjailable.


I think of them as people. I've always assumed G8 was a 'nickname' or euphemism for 'The Leaders of the Governments of the G8 countries'. Is that incorrect?

I've always thought that these persons were difficult to prosecute, because they uniquely have the ability to hide evidence behind behind 'national security' issues, and enjoy diplomatic immunity beyond the borders of their country.

Any suggestions on how to start building a case against these 'guys?

Quote:
This person Phil just wants to do something, but he is cajoled into "acceptance" of the vague and unjailable.


I think he's doing an admirable job of working really hard to get down to the bottom of things. At first, you have to realize there is a big problem, even before having any idea of who is behind it or how it is happening.

Quote:
BullShit - Silverstein is jailable and real action requires the b-a-l-l-s to call a spade, a spade.


I'm not a lawyer, and by no means do I think Larry is a saint, but what exactly is he jailable for? For making mysteriously advantageous and timely business decisions? For uncannily having the foresight to insure the buildings against terrorism, when the administration had 'no idea?' For being a multi-multi billionaire?

I agree he's a slimy insider, but that's not a jailable offense.

Quote:
It is quite possible that a forum like this can serve as cyber "flypaper," attracting those of us who are more ego-driven to participate, to stand up and be counted. And they will count us.


Fuck it. I don't care if I suck up an ice bullet tomorrow - I'm tired of living in fear and confusion. I'm not trying to overthrow any governments or change the world - I'm trying to understand the world around me to better understand myself - and compare notes with other honest beings engaged in a similar process.

Also, if you are not very careful what 'evidence' you show your co-workers, they will bust you for being a fool. Take it from me. That's my only interest in 'outing' the fakes - they undermined a lot of my early attempts at 'waking up' those in my social circle by making me appear to be a gullible retard - which I may very well still be. That's why I don't take Fintan's word as 'gospel' either. I listen to every one, but I make up my own mind, and provide my own independent research and conclusions - luckily BFN stories usually come chock full of links and sources.

I believe Phil and I are honestly looking for what to believe rather than whom. If we hadn't sparred a couple rounds in this forum, we might never have met - and I would never have had the opportunity to crash on his couch during my imminent 'research' of the Amsterdam coffe house scene. Smile
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funzone36
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for making the CIA fakes sites. Most people don't know which sites are real or fake.
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kawazu



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 54
Location: Kansas

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It seems that some of us have either knowingly or unknowningly taken Bushes phrase 'you are either with us or against us' and applied that to this community. For instance their are those who would call you a disinfo agent simply for not giving much creadibility or care to the POD theories, or even the Pentagon crash or even how and why the towers collapsed. I don't think this is helpful, as previously mentioned the fact we do not all agree on such things is our saving grace, not our achilles heal. it is good we disagree with each other and we ought to do so in a 'constructive' way. Going too far is when you label each other the enemy, there exists enough paranoia without us doing such things.
I agree with alot of what you have been saying all along here,Phil,but I think you are being a bit harsh on Fintan and the whole CIA Fakes issue,which isnt really a bad thing but I suspect that alot of the issue here is with the term "CIA Fakes".I can see how alot of people could possibly be insullted by this term because it is applied to a broad range of people and websites.Fintan is not saying that every one of those people is a CIA agent,or that all those sites are under direct control of the CIA,NSA,KGB,etc.I do believe he is also including the usefull idiots,the hopelessly compromised,and the clueless as well,so in that sense the framing of the issue can be a problem.I totally agree that remaining open to different views and opinions is very important,and people shouldnt be immediately branded as a CIA Fake because they disagree with Fintan,our diversity is indeed a strength.I dont think Fintans analysis is disagreeing with that,either.He is trying to do something that very much needs to be done,and being the imperfect human that he is not everything he does is flawless.But the dude is definately on to some serious shit,disagreements over details aside.We should all remain constructively critical of everyone,gotta keep everyone on their feet,because we cannot alow ourselves to be continually led in circles for much longer.Fintan is doing his part to show us how and why the truth movement has been spinning its wheels for so long,and that is an effort in which you are bound to step on some toes.But thats the way of things isnt it?Sometimes its the right thing to do.What matters is that through all of this,we are progressing.
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Phil Howe



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you Jerry on all your points. I too was nearly made a fool during my earlier adventures in being a conspirational 911 horse whisperer but do you know what saved me from endorsing poor evidence or simply stupid evidence before my credibility became shattered?

Arthur Cohen Doyles Sherlock Holmes Novels. No shit. A few years ago, recognizing that I needed to read some fiction to escape the insanity of feeling like the only 911 sketic within 400 miles, I purchased the complete novels of Sherlock Holmes, and, well, I cannot say enough good about these books. Not only are they great fun but I honestly couldn't recommened a better series of fictional books for any would be 911 researcher to invest in. They are, shock horror, inspiring and educational. I cannot completely explain why but within a short time I found myself playing the part of Sherlock Holmes unconsciously when reviewing the 'mysterious case of 911' ... don't get me wrong here, no pipe, voilin, handlebar moustached side kick, or cocaine needle required( though you can find all thse things in some of Hollands, errgh, shall we say more 'tailored bars'). But what those books do teach you- or atleast taught me- was that cicrcumstantial evidence will always only be circumstantial and the highest standards of professionalism are required when formulating a case againt someone/thing. Especially so when you are dealing with the actual lawmakers of the world, in such cases you need a case that is not only airtight and bursting with hardcore evidence but, above all else, you need the support of the majority of the public first..... emphasis on First.

I would honestly suggest anyone who enjoys reading to get hold of some Sherlock Holmes, if nothing elese it makes for great entertainment but beneath its fictional facade lies a very non fictional truth about the birth of forensic science and how Doyle (The author) came to be, himself, acquainted with the real life Godfather of Forensics who was much like Sherlock Holmes. Doyle himself was also called upon by the police of the time to assist in murder cases. Thus you come to realize that Sherlock Holmes is not quite as fictional as you might think...Fascinating stuff...Atleast for me, and a great, if not often abstract learning tool, that can be applied in many ways to anyone within the 911 skeptics community.

I came out of that with my doubts solidifed. Circumstantial evidence, no matter how vast, was useless without both the outrage of the majority of the public and more logically demonstrable evidence in our favor. These inbrediants alone are weak but when combined in the right volumes spark revolutions.

What we can actually prove is slight but what we can disprove is great.

* I believe we can disprove that many of the airplane calls took place, thus throwing serious doubt upon a centrepiece of the official conspiracy theories evidence.

* I believe we can disprove that many of the flight maneuvers seen on 911 were humanly possible under the scientific restrictions and principles of the planes in use and I know we can present pilots, both military and commercial, to endorse this claim.

* I believe we can disprove the claim that their was no advance warning or indeed specific warning given to the current administration about the actual attacks.

* I believe that there exists enough logical problems with the official account of what happened at the Pentagon and what bought WTC1,2,3 down to warrant the rejection of the current explanation and a new investigation. That said I am also aware that if 911 was an operation carried out by forces with the western world that trusting any kind of 'independant investigation' will be a task of great difficulty though I do believe it can be dealt with.

* I do not believe that claims of POD's on planes, space based laser weapons or other such seriously circumstantial evidence is anything but damaging to the credibiity of this issue at this stage, whether ultimately true or not. Such claims ought not to be given undue attention by anyone with a genuine care in this field.


There we go, a few of my own personal thoughts and some of the material I use when talking to people about this issue.There is alot more I personally think but I'm right in the middle of triyn gto secure a Mortgage for my apartment so i;m sure you'll understand i'm quite busy!


P.S. Till I buy a bed Jerry i'll be sleeping on my couch but you are more than welcome to come over in the future if you would like Wink

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kathy



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 728
Location: Surfing The Waves

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My research is done on intuitive basis, one might say, I stumble across evidence in places least expected. When one stands back they can see patterns developing that eventually make full pictures. I have never gone in search of any one person or group to blame, never gone running off after a villain, time is too valuable to focus on one.

Sometimes just watching the play reveals the plot. No knicker twisting, not hype, nothing, just watch, observe and one begins to see the pattern.
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General Lee



Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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kawazu



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 54
Location: Kansas

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
* I believe that there exists enough logical problems with the official account of what happened at the Pentagon and what bought WTC1,2,3 down to warrant the rejection of the current explanation and a new investigation. That said I am also aware that if 911 was an operation carried out by forces with the western world that trusting any kind of 'independant investigation' will be a task of great difficulty though I do believe it can be dealt with.
An investigation by any authority will accomplish nothing when its being manipulated and controlled behind the scenes by the very people under suspicion.That is why the rats must be exposed,and although it is a potentially messy and temporarily damaging task,it must be done before the entire issue is hopelessly compromised.You are right that we must hold ourselves to the highest standards whenever possible,but that can and will be used against us,so a balance must be struck somehow.They have a plan for whatever action we take,so we have to find the course they are least able to block.Placing any hope on any sort of official legal inquiry is rather pointless Im afraid.That is a lesson we should all know by now I think,they love to raise hopes just enough so it hurts when they smash them right back down.
Quote:
I would honestly suggest anyone who enjoys reading to get hold of some Sherlock Holmes, if nothing elese it makes for great entertainment but beneath its fictional facade lies a very non fictional truth about the birth of forensic science and how Doyle (The author) came to be, himself, acquainted with the real life Godfather of Forensics who was much like Sherlock Holmes.
Sherlock Holmes is indeed good reading,entertaining and educational,was some of my favorite reading in high school.
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heiho1



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Location: Pioneer Theater
155 E 3rd St, New York, NY
When: Saturday, February 11, 9:00pm
Phone: (212) 591-0434

You are cordially invited to a premiere screening of the documentary film LOOSE CHANGE, Second Edition. This event will be followed by a short discussion period. There is no fee for entrance and free refreshments will be provided.

If you see one documentary film this month, *this is the one*.

-------------------------------------------------

I'm hosting a LOOSE CHANGE Second Edition screening this Saturday. I will be trying to raise the topic of forming a common law jury investigation into specific 9/11 crimes [such as the EPA fraud]. Those interested in what, exactly, a "common law" jury is are advised to read through Lysander Spooner's classic text:

TRIAL BY JURY
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kawazu



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 54
Location: Kansas

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad you brought up "Loose Change 2nd edition" I got that a few weeks ago and I liked it.I wonder what Fintan's opinion is of that movie.Would he call it a product of the CIA Fakes because it still has a little bit of a blame GW and Dick Cheney feel to it?I think this movie is great for introducing beginners to the subject of what really went down on 9-11,it presents alot of the most important facts and video and audio evidence.It is very effective at convincing people that 9-11 was indeed an inside job,which is the first step towards the truth.Its up to the viewer to wade through all the various theories of who was behind it and why.Its up to the individual to attempt to wade through all the disinfo and lies they will encounter in any further investigation.I like to try to "convert"people,so to speak,to the effort to bring down the coverup surrounding 9-11.Since the first Loose Change video came out that is what I would show to people whenever i got the chance,then I would reccomend they read Fintan's work on Breakfornews.com,to get a better picture of what is going on.Thats worked out pretty well so far,so despite its flaws I will continue to suggest Loose Change to the newbies because ive gotten nothing but positive reaction from it so far.
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