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Jeroen
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 60
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 Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I found very interesting the issue of WHY we lost the ability to make Vitamin C as detailed in Jeroen's post above. |
Glad to hear Fintan.
| Quote: | | Also worth taking note of is Markattack's post on Chlorine and the development of heart disease. I think the jury is still out on all this. |
My post in which I explain that heart disease is a chronic form of scurvy is, in my arrogant opinion, the most important post in this thread. The papers from the 1950s to which I referred contain good science and are not not very difficult to understand ( http://vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/ ). You can find two articles that give a good overview here and here
As for the post on chlorine:
| Quote: | | Cholesterol is a lipid (fatty) substance present in all animal cells and essential to life; it's a precursor for many common bio chemical compounds. But when excess chlorine has been absorbed from drinking chlorinated water, it reacts 'with some of the cholesterol in the blood, forming the yellowish fatty deposits that accumulate along artery walls, narrowing and hardening them, and often causing ruptures. |
Atherosclerosis is a repair mechanism; it is not *caused* by something in the blood:
| Quote: | When the extensive studies made on the subject of atherosclerosis are reviewed, it is apparent that only the morphologic features form a basis common to all. These morphologic features are first of all a disturbance in the intercellular ground substance of the arterial intima at points of mechanical stress.
(AN EXPERIMENTAL STUDY OF THE INTIMAL GROUND SUBSTANCE IN ATHEROSCLEROSIS, G.C. Willis, Canad. M. A. J. Vol 69, 1953, p. 17-22)
http://vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/WillisGround.pdf |
Again the chlorine post:
| Quote: | | It ignores the fact that heart attacks were virtually unknown until this century, when chlorination of water began, and they remain quite rare in places such as China as long as the practice is not adopted. It also does not explain how people such as eskimos with massive cholesterol intakes remain free of heart disease. |
Of course, many reasons can be thought of why before the 20th century heart attacks were almost unknown. The most obvious one is that people prior to the 20th century died before they reached the age at which people now get heart attacks:
| Quote: | Americans are living longer than ever before. In 1900, life expectancy at birth was about 49 years. By 1960, life expectancy had increased to 70 years, and in 1997, life expectancy at birth was 79 years for women and 74 years for men.
http://www.agingstats.gov/chartbook2000/healthstatus.html |
***
The papers written by Pauling and Rath are for real, but there are a few things about Matthias Rath that undermine the credibility of his medical opinion. This may be due to his personality, but perhaps he's a "Big Pharma fake". Assuming Matthias is for real, he is obviously a megalomaniac:
Strong evidence for this hypothesis existed already in 1955:
| Quote: | The ground substance [of the innermost layer of the arterial wall] depends on ascorbic acid for its formation and under conditions of ascorbic acid depletion the ground substance undergoes depolymerization. [...] A localized depletion often exists in segments of arteries susceptible to atherosclerosis for reasons of mechanical stress.
(ASCORBIC ACID CONTENT OF HUMAN ARTERIAL TISSUE, G. C. Willis, S. Fishman, Canad. M. A. J., April 1, 1955, Vol 72, Pg 500-503)
http://vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/WillisSerial.pdf |
Rath may be credited for the discovery that it is lipoprotein(a), a variant of "bad" LDL cholesterol, that starts the formation of plaques; three of the four papers he wrote before teaming up with Pauling are about lipoprotein(a).
In 2003, Rath submitted a complaint to the ICC in the Hague "Against Genocide and Other Crimes Against Humanity Committed in Connection With The Pharmaceutical 'Business With Disease' And The Recent War Against Iraq."
The connection, according to Rath, between the pharmaceutical industry and the Iraq war is that
| Quote: | [n]ow, with the largest investment industry on planet Earth being exposed as an organized fraud business - haunted by tens of thousands of liability lawsuits - immediate and global industry protection laws have become an urgent measure to cover up these crimes and to cement the continued control of the investment “business with disease” over human health worldwide. These far-reaching protection laws for an organized fraud-business implied the curtailing of civil rights and other drastic measures that could not be implemented during peacetime.
http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/The_Hague/complaint/complaint00.htm |
Surely it is easier to establish outrageous laws in times of war, but to claim that Big Pharma's desire for protection laws is the primary cause for the Iraq war seems delusional. Again the complaint:
| Quote: | 1.1.6. AIDS and other Infectious Diseases
Similar deliberate deception schemes were applied for the treatment of one of the most deadly epidemics in human history, AIDS. Already 10 years ago scientific studies have shown that vitamin C is able to reduce the replication of the HIV-Virus by more than 99%. This fact has been known to the accused for more than a decade.
http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/The_Hague/complaint/complaint03.htm |
Aids is not an infectious disease and there is no solid evidence for the existence of hiv (hiv, in all likelyhood, does not exist). Rath should know, because he's active in South Africa where aids dissident Thabo Mbeki is president.
Among the accused are the leaders of the world--George Walker Bush and Anthony Charles Lynton (“Tony”) Blair--to make sure the complaint won't be acted upon it seems, but also the "Dutch Union Against Quackery" because "it accused the Heracles football (ie soccer) club from Almelo (of backwaters backwaterest), Netherlands of being tainted with inhuman suffering because of its sponsorship link with the Rath organization."
This month, the so called Treatment Information Group (TIG) in South Africa charged TAC leader Zackie Achmat with genocide (for pushing ARVs) in the ICC. The TIG has "a strategic alliance" with the Dr. Rath Health Foundation Africa (but I don't know where (the rest of) their money comes from). The indictment says:
| Quote: | In view of the scale and gravity of Achmat’s crime and his direct personal criminal culpability for ‘the deaths of thousands of people’, to quote his own words, it is respectfully submitted that the International Criminal Court ought to impose on him the highest sentence provided by Article 77.1(b) of the Rome Statute, namely to permanent confinement in a small white steel and concrete cage, bright fluorescent light on all the time to keep an eye on him, his warders putting him out only to work every day in the prison garden to cultivate nutrient-rich vegetables, including when it’s raining, in order for him to repay his debt to society, with the ARVs he claims to take administered daily under close medical watch at the full prescribed dose, morning, noon and night, without interruption, to prevent him faking that he’s being treatment compliant, pushed if necessary down his forced-open gullet with a finger, or, if he bites, kicks and screams too much, dripped into his arm after he’s been restrained on a gurney with cable ties around his ankles, wrists and neck, until he gives up the ghost on them, so as to eradicate this foulest, most loathsome, unscrupulous and malevolent blight on the human race, who has plagued and poisoned the people of South Africa, mostly black, mostly poor, for nearly a decade now, since the day he and his TAC first hit the scene.
http://www.tig.org.za/pdf-files/icc_achmatcomplaint.pdf |
Sounds fair to me, but seems like a bad strategy if you want to be taken seriously. |
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Fintan
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 6097
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Jeroen, maye you are picking up my comment that the "jury is still out on
all this" in the wrong way. Probably because I was as usual rushed and
brevity won out over detail.
I'm well aware of Rath/Pauling and the Lysine/Vitamin C/noflushNiacin protocol.
It's just that I'm never satisified with most of the picture, when
sometimes the final parts of the puzzle can contain further insights.
The missing bits may be in this:
Why only one third, if this is a simple vitamin deficiency like scurvy?
The answer from Vitam C adherents is that 1,500mg-day is not enough.
If so, maybe the missing bits are in the seemingly inordinately dosages
of vitamin C requred for effects.
Or may be in the chlorine issue detailed above.
Or even in this:
| Quote: | February 23, 2001
Helicobacteria pylori found in atherosclerotic lesions
The February 2001 issue of Stroke: Journal of the American Heart Association published the results of a study in which atherosclerotic lesions were examined and the majority found to contain the bacteria H pylori, a known cause of stomach ulcers. Recent evidence has implicated inflammation and possible infection as playing causative roles in atherosclerotic vascular disease, with Chlamydia pneumoniae, herpes simplex 1 and 2, hepatitis A, cytomegalovirus and H pylori diagnosed more often in people with atherosclerosis.
http://www.dogtorj.net/id13.html |
Or in a combination of some or all of the above. 
I can't rule out that this is multi-factorial and vital cofactors may be involved.
Dr. Rath is entitled to a certain amount of personal self-esteem for his
role in the Vitamin C issue, but then there is a fine line between high
self-esteem and too much. Especially when too much is not usually
helpful to painstaking scientiflic discovery.
Also when one is aware of the downright evil actions of big Pharma
it is understandable that Rath's complaint to the ICC is a little OTT.
But I dunno, I experienced some emotional reaction at the height of
the 200-2002 battles with Mbeki against the Pharma aids Drug pushers,
but I got over that. It doesn't help credibility with the general public.
And although Anthony Brink of TIG is a friend, the emotional aspects
of his genocide complaint against Achmat is regretable.
| Quote: | Jeroen: Aids is not an infectious disease and there is no solid evidence for
the existence of hiv (hiv, in all likelyhood, does not exist). Rath should
know, because he's active in South Africa where aids dissident Thabo
Mbeki is president. |
Agreed Aids is not infectious (except as a psychological mind virus lol).
But there is ample evidence for its existence as a reteroviral entity, albeit
endogenous in 95%+ of the population and expressed only in severe
metabolic dysfunction linked to oxidative stress and persistent anaerobic mitochondrial function.
But you are right that Rath is wrong to buy into the establishment game
of regarding HIV replication as a disease process to be combatted.
| Quote: | Of course, many reasons can be thought of why before the 20th century heart attacks were almost unknown. The most obvious one is that people prior to the 20th century died before they reached the age at which people now get heart attacks: | Quote: | Quote:
Americans are living longer than ever before. In 1900, life expectancy at birth was about 49 years. By 1960, life expectancy had increased to 70 years, and in 1997, life expectancy at birth was 79 years for women and 74 years for men.
http://www.agingstats.gov/chartbook2000/healthstatus.htm |
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I'm a little cautious about the claimed pre-industrial mortality stats
without qualification. Complicating factors include the desperately poor
sanitation of middle ages urban populations and the introduction of
immunosuppressive wheat and cow dairy in all populations.
Just as one indication, lifespans in excess of 90 years were not unusual
in early 1900's populations in the West of Ireland, where diet was low in
grain and high in fish and even seaweeds. These were hardy people
and an average 70 year old would likely arm-wrestle you or I to the floor.
lol
Anyway, I'm still interested in continuing to examine the heart disease
issue as I feel there is more to be discovered. |
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FaxMam
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by FaxMam on Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jeroen
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The missing bits may be in this:
Why only one third, if this is a simple vitamin deficiency like scurvy? |
That it is (mainly) a vitamin deficiency means that, with great probability, it can be *prevented*, but not necessarily that it can be *reversed* by taking vitamin c. Also, the therapy lasted from 2 to 6 months; perhaps better results are obtained after a longer time.
| Quote: | | The answer from Vitam C adherents is that 1,500mg-day is not enough. If so, maybe the missing bits are in the seemingly inordinately dosages of vitamin C requred for effects. |
That's what should have been tested 50 years ago.
| Quote: | Or may be in the chlorine issue detailed above. [Or in a bacteria and a bunch of viruses] Or in a combination of some or all of the above. I can't rule out that this is multi-factorial and vital cofactors may be involved.
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The chlorine article suggests that atherosclerosis is a process comparable to the buildup of deposits in a hose, which is a crucial error or disinfo. Plaques are found at points of mechanical stress--the last place you'd expect them to find if plaque formation was comparable to sedimentation. Maybe chlorine increases the buildup of existing plaques, weakens the arterial wall or depletes vitamin c--I'm not a chemist (nor a doctor) so I don't know--but if chlorine really was an important factor, cats and dogs would also get heart attacks (they drink tap water too):
| Quote: | It is very unusual to identify a myocardial infarction in a dog, most likely because of the differences in the way fats are processed by the body and dietary factors. Even on a fatty diet, dogs are very resistant to coronary artery disease.
http://www.petplace.com/dogs/heart-attack-in-dogs/page1.aspx
It is very unusual to identify a myocardial infarction in a cat, most likely because of the differences in the way fats are processed by the body and dietary factors. This means that cats rarely, if ever, suffer from true heart attacks. Even on a fatty diet, cats are very resistant to coronary artery disease.
http://www.petplace.com/cats/heart-attack-in-cats/page1.aspx |
As for the bacteria and viruses, infections do deplete vitamin c. However, anyone familiar with the aids issue knows that Big Pharma quacks love to blame viruses--in 1995 for instance, it was decided that Kaposi's sarcoma is caused by a herpes virus.
More things *are* probably involved, but remember that atherosclerosis can be induced *and* reversed by respectively withholding and administering *only* vitamin c to quinea pigs.
| Quote: | | Dr. Rath is entitled to a certain amount of personal self-esteem for his role in the Vitamin C issue, but then there is a fine line between high self-esteem and too much. |
It's not just a matter of self-esteem, but also of plagiarism. In the first paper about the connection between vitamin c and heart disease, the Willis papers appear in the references. So Rath knew about them, but writes on his web page that this connection is *his* discovery (but that's not a scientific publication of course). And of course he doesn't give Pauling any credit either.
Another point of critique is that Rath terms his therapeutic recommendations "cellular medicine", while Pauling had already invented the name "orthomolecular medicine". Obviously, using the term "orthomolecular medicine" would be less confusing and boost Rath's credibility (and Heinrich Kremer calls it "biological compensation therapy". Sigh. Don't these doctors understand anything?)
| Quote: | | Anyway, I'm still interested in continuing to examine the heart disease issue as I feel there is more to be discovered. |
Yep, but I already bought myself some vitamin c pills. And the most astounding aspect of this issue is of course that straightforward groundbreaking results have been ignored for 50 years. |
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Damian Flynn
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 219
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: |
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I've always found Dr Malcolm Kendricks views on cholesterol and heart desease the most down to Earth. There are many essays on the subject at the following link.
http://thincs.org/Malcolm.choltheory.htm
One important point which I think is often over looked is your physical and psychological state, while eating. I remember hearing an interview with Malcolm where he said that it's important to be relaxed and free of stress when you're eating, and for at least an hour or so after. I think it might have somthing to do with stress hormones and how it affects the digestive system. The best thing to do when under stress is to exercise, and then have a meal when you feel a little more relaxed. |
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Damian Flynn
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 219
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Another interesting topic is the recent history of the perversion of western diets with respect to dietry fats.
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/oilingamerica.1.html
An important point I should add is the fact that the Good vs Evil Cholesterol Cult is a CIA psyop. I saw this first hand in the american books used for English conversation lessons in Korea, which also promoted shit like AIDS, Population Time Bomb, Global Warming, Peak Oil, Globalisation and Free Trade, E.T. life and UFOs, Global Feminism, Evil North Korea, Global Terrorism, the U.N., Generatin X, etc. etc. The article above makes no reference to the CIA. Mary Enig just babbles on about the processed food corporations. |
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