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Did both Brits and Yanks know Iraq would descend into chaos?

 
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navari
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject: Did both Brits and Yanks know Iraq would descend into chaos? Reply with quote

Quote:
British officials warned US diplomats that bringing down the Iraqi dictator would lead to the chaos the world has since witnessed.


    - Is this some pysop being run by the Brits to say, see, we told ya so?
    - Did we enter Iraq knowing that we'd create the chaos? Hence, is the chaos on purpose?
    - Is the truth simply now coming out?


    What am I missing here? I don't understand what's going on
    here. A little help from the talented folks in this forum would be welcome.


Quote:
Diplomat's suppressed document lays bare the lies behind Iraq war
By Colin Brown and Andy McSmith
Published: 15 December 2006
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2076137.ece

The Government's case for going to war in Iraq has been torn apart by the publication of previously suppressed evidence that Tony Blair lied over Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.

A devastating attack on Mr Blair's justification for military action by Carne Ross, Britain's key negotiator at the UN, has been kept under wraps until now because he was threatened with being charged with breaching the Official Secrets Act.

In the testimony revealed today Mr Ross, 40, who helped negotiate several UN security resolutions on Iraq, makes it clear that Mr Blair must have known Saddam Hussein possessed no weapons of mass destruction. He said that during his posting to the UN, "at no time did HMG [Her Majesty's Government] assess that Iraq's WMD (or any other capability) posed a threat to the UK or its interests."

Mr Ross revealed it was a commonly held view among British officials dealing with Iraq that any threat by Saddam Hussein had been "effectively contained".

He also reveals that British officials warned US diplomats that bringing down the Iraqi dictator would lead to the chaos the world has since witnessed. "I remember on several occasions the UK team stating this view in terms during our discussions with the US (who agreed)," he said.

"At the same time, we would frequently argue when the US raised the subject, that 'regime change' was inadvisable, primarily on the grounds that Iraq would collapse into chaos."

He claims "inertia" in the Foreign Office and the "inattention of key ministers" combined to stop the UK carrying out any co-ordinated and sustained attempt to address sanction-busting by Iraq, an approach which could have provided an alternative to war.

Mr Ross delivered the evidence to the Butler inquiry which investigated intelligence blunders in the run-up to the conflict.

The Foreign Office had attempted to prevent the evidence being made public, but it has now been published by the Commons Select Committee on Foreign Affairs after MPs sought assurances from the Foreign Office that it would not breach the Official Secrets Act.

It shows Mr Ross told the inquiry, chaired by Lord Butler, "there was no intelligence evidence of significant holdings of CW [chemical warfare], BW [biological warfare] or nuclear material" held by the Iraqi dictator before the invasion. "There was, moreover, no intelligence or assessment during my time in the job that Iraq had any intention to launch an attack against its neighbours or the UK or the US," he added.

Mr Ross's evidence directly challenges the assertions by the Prime Minster that the war was legally justified because Saddam possessed WMDs which could be "activated" within 45 minutes and posed a threat to British interests. These claims were also made in two dossiers, subsequently discredited, in spite of the advice by Mr Ross.

His hitherto secret evidence threatens to reopen the row over the legality of the conflict, under which Mr Blair has sought to draw a line as the internecine bloodshed in Iraq has worsened.

Mr Ross says he questioned colleagues at the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence working on Iraq and none said that any new evidence had emerged to change their assessment.

"What had changed was the Government's determination to present available evidence in a different light," he added.

Mr Ross said in late 2002 that he "discussed this at some length with David Kelly", the weapons expert who a year later committed suicide when he was named as the source of a BBC report saying Downing Street had "sexed up" the WMD claims in a dossier. The Butler inquiry cleared Mr Blair and Downing Street of "sexing up" the dossier, but the publication of the Carne Ross evidence will cast fresh doubts on its findings.

Mr Ross, 40, was a highly rated diplomat but he resigned because of his misgivings about the legality of the war. He still fears the threat of action under the Official Secrets Act.

"Mr Ross hasn't had any approach to tell him that he is still not liable to be prosecuted," said one ally. But he has told friends that he is "glad it is out in the open" and he told MPs it had been "on my conscience for years".

One member of the Foreign Affairs committee said: "There was blood on the carpet over this. I think it's pretty clear the Foreign Office used the Official Secrets Act to suppress this evidence, by hanging it like a Sword of Damacles over Mr Ross, but we have called their bluff."

Yesterday, Jack Straw, the Leader of the Commons who was Foreign Secretary during the war - Mr Ross's boss - announced the Commons will have a debate on the possible change of strategy heralded by the Iraqi Study Group report in the new year.
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Rumpl4skn



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the talented folks here aren't replying, I'll drop my class clown act for a second and give it a shot. Laughing

The chaos is absolutely deliberate. This is how you globalize the planet, region by region.

As Iraq descends into chaos, who will step in, as always, to "stop the suffering"? NATO, the global army.

_________________
"No matter what happens, ever... there's ALWAYS at least one reason. And the top reason is ALWAYS money."
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navari
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rumpl4skn wrote:
The chaos is absolutely deliberate. This is how you globalize the planet, region by region.

As Iraq descends into chaos, who will step in, as always, to "stop the suffering"? NATO, the global army.


So, they read the sitaution correctly from the get-go? If that is the case, then a couple of questions:

- how come the UN solution has not been put on the table?
- why let the chaos go on for so long when their is oil under them their sands?
- why let the USA dump so many dollars into the effort?

Also, Bush is taking quite a hit for this.... was the necessary, or was that always part of the plan?
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Rumpl4skn



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2950
Location: 36� 3'N x 86�40'W

PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

navari wrote:
So, they read the situation correctly from the get-go?

No, they scripted an created the situation. There was no 'reaction' to what happened. The Iraq Wars were planned literally decades ago, and have gone pretty much precisely as planned.

Quote:
If that is the case, then a couple of questions:

- how come the UN solution has not been put on the table?

Because the UN is a meaningless entity, except possible as a magnet for Right-wing criticism, to deflect from the real rulers, the G8.
Quote:

- why let the chaos go on for so long when their is oil under them their sands?

The oil will always be accessible, particularly now that we have 14 permanent air bases there.
Quote:
- why let the USA dump so many dollars into the effort?

?????? That is one of the major peripheral scams from all of this - to appropriate tax dollars and hand them to the defense industry. It's also why there will be no quick withdrawal - every day outside of Iraq is millions lost in corporate weapons profits. War is about money, period. Taking it from the people and giving to the defense contractors.

Quote:
Also, Bush is taking quite a hit for this.... was the necessary, or was that always part of the plan?

Yes. He's the designated idiot who can't get anything right. Iraq, Katrina, 9/11, etc. The scripted fall-guy for this blatant theft of funds and murder of the cannon fodder soldiery.

_________________
"No matter what happens, ever... there's ALWAYS at least one reason. And the top reason is ALWAYS money."


Last edited by Rumpl4skn on Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I think, the revenue lost by Bush tax cuts is being made up at least partly by higher fuel prices, caused by shortages caused by confict, which means more revenue for the rest of OPEC, which the Saudis if no one else takes in Treasury Bonds, which they invest back in Wall Street.
I think.
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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 850
Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<<QUOTE<<<

?: The Israelis and the United States are trying to change everything in this area in order to suit the [?] of Israel...

Hassan Ibrahim: The problem with the Middle East, everything is an Israeli conspiracy. Everything. If a water pipe breaks in the center of Damascus, it will be blamed on the Israelis. Instead of blaming it on our own incompetence. [laughter] And don't tell me this ... 'Americanization', yes, America is dominating... but the rest of the world is all castrated, people are against this war, people are resisting. And people matter.

?: I am hoping everybody in the world will get the American passport one day, so this world will be quiet.

Hassan Ibrahim: This is a defeatist attitude. Eventually you will have to find a solution that doesn't include bombing people into submission. [quiet pause around the table; gun gesture] Democratize or I'll shoot you. It just doesn't work this way.

<<<ENDQUOTE<<< ~dialogue from "Control Room" [2004]


Yeah, I'm starting to reel back a bit from my "M _ _ _ A D" stance, on style issues alone. The fast-track regime change in Iraq being too outright and unmanageable a gambit for anyone's comfort to be a brainchild of the Israeli even Zion mindset. Though I continue to consider that the press accounts of Israeli citizens in the US, captured in-camera by various news sources and involving an (unusual) number of local Sherrifs and reporters, are a mixture of unscripted and scripted events, a grand dollop of psyop applied over a (leaked, unintended) bit of core event with an orgy-in-surround to set us up for the latest (redux) of "diddit".

Talk about LIHOP, the Israelis (if they did have input) went ahead and let us topple the Saddam Statue, a scripted psyop moment taken directly from the pages of Russian historybooks: but also a clumsy and thickheaded move, played for its effect in the United States without any input as to how the same cartoonish 'pull-it' move would be perceived by the indigenous population surrounding it -- or, to take it down a single layer -- done willfully to communicate a sense of naked 'gloves-off' agression, to a people, who may have decided of themselves to deprecate Saddam's ever-prevalent iconism... but would not choose to do so by way of jeering mob. To new choir members this is pretty proven, clip below -- and is a very valuable item for talking point and study as it represents a point in time where the grand psyop iceberg emerges above the surface of modern history.

Also of note, in the movie 'Control Room' -- index in to 1:07:50 to see a part of the documentary filmed in the control room (Al-Jazeera had already been ousted from Iraq) as the statue toppled, and the reactions of those there.

Especially the fiendishly clever Deema Khatib, who unravels motives as the statue topples, to peer through the psyop in near-real time. I'd love to see her weigh in at BFN. Rewriting history is fine, so long as it's done at least twice.



"It was a very clever idea, what they did. Of course, they did it on purpose, they knew they were coming to the square where all the journalists were, where everybody was going to be 'live' and was going to forget everything else they had done. They were going to forget, 24 hours, what had happened, they were going to forget all the civillian casualties, they were going to forget everything. All that was going to be remembered was the statue. And I'll bet they brought in these teenage guys, who like, broke the statue. Put it down. They brought them in with them. Because, if you notice... they're all sort of the same age, no women, and they all went in and it was the same people on the square -- you couldn't see more people gathering from the houses around... no one came down to the street to see what was happening because they are scared. And these people who came in -- how come one of them had the flag, of Iraq, before 1991. In his pocket? Has he just been waiting there for ten years... with a flag? On that square? [laughs] I don't think so. But this is not something that the US media would talk about."
~Deema Khatib, producer, Al-Jazeera


Take people back to the moment where Saddam's statue toppled. Let them have their "It was about time!" and "Wow that reminds me of Stalin, somehow...or was it Lenin...?" say. Then tell 'em it was all scripted, clumsily. You may be crazy but you're certainly not incorrect, send them to the link below. Let 'em deny it outright, then think again, later. Let the healing begin.

Quote:
Army report confirms Psy-ops staged Saddam statue toppling
by Jon Elmer

July 3, 2004 - An internal Army study of the war in Iraq has confirmed that the infamous toppling of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Firdos Square in central Baghdad on April 9, 2003 was stage-managed by American troops and not a spontaneous reaction by Iraqis. According to the study, a Marine colonel first decided to topple the statue, and an Army psychological operations unit turned the event into a propaganda moment.

At one point during the stunt Marines draped the statue of Saddam Hussein with an American flag. When the crowd reacted negatively to that gesture, the US flag was replaced with a pre-1990 Iraqi flag, missing the words "God is Great," by a sergeant from the psychological operations unit. The Marines brought in cheering Iraqi children in order to make the scene appear authentic, the study said.

Allegations that the event was staged were made in April of last year, mostly by opponents of the war, but were ignored or ridiculed by the US government and most visible media outlets.


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Ormond



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
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Location: Belly of the Beast, Texas

PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the infamous toppling of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Firdos Square in central Baghdad on April 9, 2003 was stage-managed by American troops and not a spontaneous reaction by Iraqis.


Remember the riots outside the Bagdad Museum? I felt at the time that was staged also, as cover for the fact that inside, the Museum was looted of it's Babylonian treasures.
The Museum was stripped of it's priceless antiquities. This is the equivant of removing the entire collection of the Metropolitan Art Museum. Important to note that the Mueseum was stripped from the inside in a matter of hours, under cover of the 'spontaneous riots'/ No. That was no random act of looting, only an organized and rather large team aided with heavy equipment and knowlege of removal of large and small ancient antiquities could have removed tonnage of museum contents without destroying it.
The museum was surrounded by US military in tanks and military vehicles, just outside the perimeter of the 'rioters'. They did nothing to 'stop' the rioting, but it sure made a convenient video op for CNN.
The contents of the museum was said to have 'vanished' in reports the next day. On the riot tape never did it appear that the 'rioters' broke into or entered the museum...and how could looters have made off off with monumental basalt statues and such through the heavily armed perimeter of US troops who did nothing but watch the show?

I remember the alleged 'spontaneous' rioting and looting of Bagdad, presented as an orgy of joy by 'liberated' Iraqis. It just didn't smell right.

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